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Post by wiganshrew2 on Apr 5, 2005 20:12:05 GMT 1
I've been given two afternoon's work with my Dyslexic pupils. Keeps me out of mischief for a change- won't be spending all afternoon on this board? AND I've started my book about spelling. At the moment, it sounds like a rant against the current practice of encouraging "emergent writing" and "invented spelling" . I'm concerned because the Year 6 teacher is complaining that the kids are getting into such a habit of spelling badly that some are still spelling "said" as "sed" at age 11. Even the spelling tests don't help. They learn the spellings for the tests then forget them. I've kept some of my daughters' school books. My youngest daughter is a graduate, but my eldest was very "average"- yet her written work, at age 7, was far better than most of the 7 year olds are producing now. I've got the evidence from my school, I know! If I was a young parent now I'd be very worried. What they're doing is changing a stage of development into a valid teaching method. My son-in-law is involved in the selection of job candidates. He said that schools should note how many job applications are discarded automatically because of bad spelling. I know it's hard. I know it's nothing at all to do with intelligence- but employers still think it matters. Nobody expects 100% accuracy- but people who spell mostly accurately have better employment prospects. Therefore we let kids down if we don't teach them how to spell properly. A lot of The National Literacy Strategy in schools is quite good, but some sections are such rubbish I'd like to rip them out and burn them! It sounds like a Daily Mail right-wing rant- but I'm NOT at all right wing and I hate the Daily Mail. It's just that I care about kids and their futures.
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Post by kickinpretty on Apr 5, 2005 20:23:33 GMT 1
Spelling is a big problem for many people although i wouldn't put it down to just teaching methods.
If somebody writes infrequently then they are more likely to make spelling errors, not everyone writes for a living so i would think bad spelling and grammer is pandemic in the British population.
Teachers get a raw deal in my book, afterall they can only teach what they are told to teach by the Government agencies, im sure many a teacher would prefer to teach differently.
Blame the Government, blame lack of daily use, but please give the teachers a break, they do a sterling job in the face of adversity.
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Post by wiganshrew2 on Apr 5, 2005 20:34:47 GMT 1
Kickin'- I AM a teacher. I was a class teacher for many years before I specialised in teaching children with specific learning difficulties.
So, yes, I DO know what it's like to be forced to teach in a way that goes against the grain and isn't going to be helpful.
It IS the Government- well, successive governments, actually. I actually think that they quite cynically aim for "quick fixes" that might get the children "performing" specified tasks as aged 7. Then it looks good for them at the next election. They couldn't care less if it all falls apart and goes pear shaped later on.
I was a Year 2 teacher when Kenneth Baker brought out The National Curriculum. The name of the game was to give the teachers lots of paperwork, I think! I remember thinking that the targets for Level 2, which was supposed to be "average" were far below the standards I'd seen in good schools.
They should have looked at what good schools did and taken it on board instead of making it a blanket condemnation of all teachers in State Schools. It was sheer politics. The Tories started it (well they would, wouldn't they? It was a case of "Private good, Public bad!") and Labour just followed on with another, slightly better but terribly flawed policy.
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Post by ShrewsAde on Apr 5, 2005 20:36:45 GMT 1
I agree totally with what you are saying Pauline, but maybe we are moving into a society where spelling is not so important (with the abundance of spell checkers and the like and everything on computers), but the big worry is also that if it continues there will be a whole history or written information unavailable to the next generation.
Our Becky used to use text-speak on this board - but not for long, because quite rightly it isn't really tolerated.
B&A blazing a trail!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2005 20:44:31 GMT 1
I luv the Dailee Male.
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chrisj
Midland League Division Two
Just get on with it.
Posts: 164
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Post by chrisj on Apr 6, 2005 10:19:41 GMT 1
I've been given two afternoon's work with my Dyslexic pupils. Keeps me out of mischief for a change- won't be spending all afternoon on this board? AND I've started my book about spelling. At the moment, it sounds like a rant against the current practice of encouraging "emergent writing" and "invented spelling" . I'm concerned because the Year 6 teacher is complaining that the kids are getting into such a habit of spelling badly that some are still spelling "said" as "sed" at age 11. Even the spelling tests don't help. They learn the spellings for the tests then forget them. I've kept some of my daughters' school books. My youngest daughter is a graduate, but my eldest was very "average"- yet her written work, at age 7, was far better than most of the 7 year olds are producing now. I've got the evidence from my school, I know! If I was a young parent now I'd be very worried. What they're doing is changing a stage of development into a valid teaching method. My son-in-law is involved in the selection of job candidates. He said that schools should note how many job applications are discarded automatically because of bad spelling. I know it's hard. I know it's nothing at all to do with intelligence- but employers still think it matters. Nobody expects 100% accuracy- but people who spell mostly accurately have better employment prospects. Therefore we let kids down if we don't teach them how to spell properly. A lot of The National Literacy Strategy in schools is quite good, but some sections are such rubbish I'd like to rip them out and burn them! It sounds like a Daily Mail right-wing rant- but I'm NOT at all right wing and I hate the Daily Mail. It's just that I care about kids and their futures. I'd agree with your idea about the NLS - I've been happily ignoring it for years - but I'm a bit worried about what you say about emergent writing, Wiggy. It sounds to me as though the children you're talking about (who are, after all children with SEN) have been taught by people who don't actually understand what developmental/emergent writing is all about. Yes, children are encouraged to 'have a go' at spelling words they're not confident of, but this is in the context of encouraging children to deal with the content and structure of the text-type they're writing. When children are asked to produce a piece of written work, the criteria for assessment should be clear to the writer, for example, a piece of instructional writing should have a clearly defined text-level objective: a "How to..." title; an appropriate illustration; a list of required equipment; numbered, ordered sentences using imperative verbs, etc. The children will also have to maintain an awareness of the audience and apply their 'secretarial' - word/sentence level - skills: handwriting, spaces between words, demarcation of sentences, appropriate levels of punctuation, etc, etc. That seems to me to be plenty for the five/six years olds I teach to carry in their little heads (in addition to the individual developmental targets each child has). So if little Billy has produced a piece of writing that meets the text-level objectives, (as I asked him to do) I'm going to tell him 'well done'. I'm not going to discourage his future attempts at writing by telling him what's wrong with it. If he spells 'said' as 'sed' I can see he knows the phonic vales of those letters and can blend them in a CVC word. If he spells 'straight' as 'strayt' it's because vowel digraphs are hard, but he has shown an understanding of onset-rime and has remembered a common spelling pattern instead of a bizarre irregular one. Emergent writing is simply one strand of a set of techniques aimed at teaching literacy, not a stand-alone alternative to learning spelling, handwriting and grammar. If the children are being taught well, they will also be learning spelling patterns, phonological skills, high-frequency irregular words and so on. If you want children to produce accurately spelled work all the time there are ways to do it, but children learn very little from either copy-writing (except how to copy) or waiting in a queue for the teacher to 'give' them the word they need - except how to queue. The latter system also has the effect of slowing production of work to one word every 5 minutes. You said yourself that spelling tests are largely irrelevant to a child's acquisition of spelling; they're the PR bit that parents like to see. But I'm a bit puzzled as to what you'd have children (or teachers) do differently or additionally. As I said in an earlier post, I have met some cr@p teachers (many taught me at Priory!), but I don't know any who don't actually care whether their children learn to spell. I don't want a fall-out about this, and it seems an odd thing to have a debate about on a football forum, but I spend many hours trying to explain these things to parents and my job gets harder when someone in the profession encourages unease and mistrust. There are problems with literacy acquisition in this country - not the least of which is that we insist on children starting formal schooling much earlier than in comparable countries. It's also worth noting btw, that there never was any golden age when everyone spelled beautifully; it's just that nowadays a far higher proportion of the population writes publicly than ever before. Just a quick spelling anecdote; from age 10 I wanted to be able to speak German (had a penfriend). When I went to Priory I was disappointed to discover that I couldn't start it for another year, but undaunted I got myself an old text book and learned a lot myself. (Aged 11, remember.) In the first term we spoke a lot and I was top of the class, having had a head start. Then we started writing. Mr Kinrade wasn't impressed with my attempts to communicate in another language or my enthusiasm for his subject. What he like to do was cover my exercise-book with red pen. There was no point in trying to write anything worth reading, or construct 'real' sentences - that just led to more spelling or case-ending or verb-infection errors. I gave up German after a couple of years and didn't want to speak or write the language again. Maybe if he'd taken another approach I might have grown into a poor speller in German, I might have failed my 'O' level', but I'd be able to read Heinrich Boll and Herman Hessse without a dictionary and maybe have a conversation with German speakers?
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 6, 2005 11:08:41 GMT 1
I don;t understand some of what is being said, too many long words, but does it mean we have to stop taking the pee out of Gripey?
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chrisj
Midland League Division Two
Just get on with it.
Posts: 164
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Post by chrisj on Apr 6, 2005 11:35:26 GMT 1
I don;t understand some of what is being said, too many long words, but does it mean we have to stop taking the pee out of Gripey? Depends what for! How's his German?
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Post by mike-in-cairo on Apr 6, 2005 12:10:49 GMT 1
funnily enough, teaching over here, the spelling of students is generally much better even though most are spanish kids. however, i'm not sure how much this is to do with affluence - i've only worked at 'poor' english schools. then again, the english taught here is done as eal style which, i guess, puts more emphasis on spelling, etc. possibly!?
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Post by mike-in-cairo on Apr 6, 2005 12:14:07 GMT 1
oh and isn't the tes website a better place for this kind of debate!?
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Post by scooter on Apr 6, 2005 12:15:27 GMT 1
Depends what for! How's his German? Probably as bad as his English
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chrisj
Midland League Division Two
Just get on with it.
Posts: 164
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Post by chrisj on Apr 6, 2005 12:20:11 GMT 1
oh and isn't the tes website a better place for this kind of debate!? Oooh, ooh, she started it!!! Re; the spelling, my wife has taught in a range of schools for 28 years now and reckons Y6 spelling's about the same as it ever was, but that most children are more confident writers now. BTW, her spelling is terrible! ;D
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Post by WindsorShrew on Apr 6, 2005 14:16:38 GMT 1
Why is the Daily Mail Classed as far right ? I enjoy reading it every day and have for many years, do I now have to associate myself with Hitler ? No one ever says Guardian readers are far left do they ? Perhaps the political elite on this board would prefer it if everyone realised just how lucky we are to have "good old Tony" and henceforth everyone has to agree with him ? I shall continue to read the mail and consider myself a normal happy little Englishman.
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Post by wiganshrew2 on Apr 6, 2005 16:38:58 GMT 1
I'd agree with your idea about the NLS - I've been happily ignoring it for years - but I'm a bit worried about what you say about emergent writing, Wiggy. It sounds to me as though the children you're talking about (who are, after all children with SEN) have been taught by people who don't actually understand what developmental/emergent writing is all about. Yes, children are encouraged to 'have a go' at spelling words they're not confident of, but this is in the context of encouraging children to deal with the content and structure of the text-type they're writing. I would never discourage children by saying that what they have written is WRONG, Chris. You're right about how clever they can be. I had one today wrote "clImr" for "climber" -it shows he'd taken some rules on board. He'd represented the long i sound with a capital letter- I!! What you say is very interesting. I an fully aware of the NLS requirements to teach about "genres" and "registers." But I tend to think THAT's too much for their little heads to take in. When they wrote their own "news" it was about things within their own experience. They also had more scope to invent their own stories rather than having to write to specifications. It's because I teach children with special needs that I get concerned. I get even more concerned when they've not special needs, they're just confused! Once they've spelt a word wrongly a few times it's retained in the motor-memory and it takes about 25 instances of spelling it correctly before it's eradicated. (I learnt that on my P.G. SpLD course!!) No- they don't need to queue up for words, they need to be surrounded with them. The same child who wrote "clImr" wrote "hotel" correctly! Why? Because he'd seen it on holiday!! I think spelling is far more of a visual thing than we realise. Reading is more auditory- learning how to blend sounds. But YES!! This is no place to have a teacher discussion!! We'll have to go on "Teacher T.V." or something! I'll get thrown off if I don't shut up!! I really LIKE to get others' views- that's how we all learn and don't stagnate. P.M me if you want to talk "Shop"!!!
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Apr 6, 2005 17:28:09 GMT 1
As someone who manages a department that is responsible for conducting negotiations, reporting on them, drafting agreements and contracts I see a serious problem with younger people not knowing what words mean. For example, if you are drafting a contract and don't know that 'except' and 'accept' have different meanings you are in trouble.
Part of the problem is that Latin and classic Greek are no longer taught in State schools, so people do not know the meaning and derivation of many of our everyday words - this results in them being used inaccurately.
I also suspect that reading of classic middlebrow literature (for example Dickens, Jane Austen) is in decline, so the example of well written English using a wide vocabulary is being lost.
This is not an attack on modern teaching or teachers, in fact I am sure standards are much higher than in my day. Perhaps the emphasis on league tables and testing has resulted in a narrower education
The young people we employ are bright, motivated and industrious. It's just a pity I have to spend so much time teaching them their language.
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Post by wiganshrew2 on Apr 6, 2005 17:59:27 GMT 1
I also suspect that reading of classic middlebrow literature (for example Dickens, Jane Austen) is in decline, so the example of well written English using a wide vocabulary is being lost. As Newbolt (1921) says, "As a result of doing plenty of reading, often between 11 and 14, a boy suddenly begins to spell well." Doesn't say anything about girls, though!!!!
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Post by wiganshrew2 on Apr 6, 2005 19:01:09 GMT 1
If the children are being taught well, they will also be learning spelling patterns, phonological skills, high-frequency irregular words and so on. If you want children to produce accurately spelled work all the time there are ways to do it, but children learn very little from either copy-writing (except how to copy) Agreed about the spelling patterns, phonological skills, h/f irregular words etc.... It's what I do all the time. With the Dyslexics it's more intense and there's games to target the development of auditory and visual memory. We have fun ways of learning irregular word such as mnemonics- "Fred runs in every nice den" for spelling "friend" for example. BUT I still say children of ELEVEN shouldn't be spelling "said" as "sed". What's O.K at 5 is NOT O.K at 11!! I note that my grand-daughter spelt "allowed" as "aloud" when her mother had sorted things like that out at her age. I certainly don't expect accurate spelling all the time.It does take time. But, the trouble is, the NLS is confusing children. They seem to think, because they can do their "have a go" spelling in written pieces,( only if they're stuck, actually) they can spell EVERYTHING sloppily, when you know they can do it. What happens the, is that the incorrect spelling, as I said, goes into the motor memory and they do it without thinking! Anyway- I'd better shut up now!!! I never said teachers don't care- they certainly do, the trouble is they don't get a chance to give any feedback on their experiences in the classroom. They just get dictated to.
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chrisj
Midland League Division Two
Just get on with it.
Posts: 164
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Post by chrisj on Apr 6, 2005 19:39:51 GMT 1
Agreed about the spelling patterns, phonological skills, h/f irregular words etc.... It's what I do all the time. With the Dyslexics it's more intense and there's games to target the development of auditory and visual memory. We have fun ways of learning irregular word such as mnemonics- "Fred runs in every nice den" for spelling "friend" for example. BUT I still say children of ELEVEN shouldn't be spelling "said" as "sed". What's O.K at 5 is NOT O.K at 11!! I note that my grand-daughter spelt "allowed" as "aloud" when her mother had sorted things like that out at her age. I certainly don't expect accurate spelling all the time.It does take time. But, the trouble is, the NLS is confusing children. They seem to think, because they can do their "have a go" spelling in written pieces,( only if they're stuck, actually) they can spell EVERYTHING sloppily, when you know they can do it. What happens the, is that the incorrect spelling, as I said, goes into the motor memory and they do it without thinking! Anyway- I'd better shut up now!!! I never said teachers don't care- they certainly do, the trouble is they don't get a chance to give any feedback on their experiences in the classroom. They just get dictated to. Wow, I've opened a floodgate here! ;D Wiggy, I agree with 90% of what you say, but with a couple of reservations; you did say in an earlier post that 'most teachers don't think it [spelling] is important', with which I profoundly disagree; and I maintain that a developmental approach to writing in conjunction with all the other stuff is beneficial to children's writing. And trust me, no-one in my class thinks that they give spelling anything other than their best effort! Of course immersion in a literate culture is important in spelling ability; why do you think your daughter spells better than your pupils?! There are increasingly few children living in literate home cultures these days - TV, computers, playstations and a new generation of parents who are also entertained and entertaining electronically. We'll have to chat about this sometime. I'm off to read a book!
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Post by wiganshrew2 on Apr 6, 2005 21:17:27 GMT 1
Sorry if I said , "Most teachers don't think spelling is important!" (Did I really say, "most"?!! ) What I think it is-because the writing tasks and SATs tests are marked according to different critieria than the spelling tests, some teachers actually say, "You won't be marked on your spelling!" (I've heard it said) So what happens? A lot of the children (not all) think that gives them carte blanche to regress to infantile spelling habits. They go back to mis-spelling words they can spell! It's O.K. for the brighter ones, they do get over it and gradually develop their spelling strategies, but the not-so-able fall into habits that are difficult to "un-learn". You probably are right about exposure to books. Our two daughters were avid readers, belonged to the local library and we had (still have) loads of books at home. I don't think they read much now, but the grounding was there. Which makes me think that a lot of spelling is taken in through reading, and most certainly forms of written expression are learnt this way. I couldn't do what class teachers do today. They have so much to do I don't know how they cope. I've heard one or two say, "I'm going under with all the work." I've been there, myself. I have the luxury of being able to observe children one-to-one. I actually make notes, as I discover things- Scribble, scribble... "Mark says, 'I know my capital names!'" (Mark is confusing "alphabet NAMES with capital letters, and thinks that only capital letters can "say their names!" that's why a child wrote "clImr" for "climber" and why they often get stuck when a word like "Is" comes at the beginning of a sentence. They say "Eyes!!!" (I-z!!!) It shows they do like rules and applying them, even if they come unstuck. But you can't say it's right. You can give them credit and say, "Aren't you clever, the way you've worked that out? It's so close, but actually......." And then explain. It's been a voyage of discovery! They should really use teachers for doing Educational Research. Listen! DO get in touch! I may have been teaching since the late 1960's and have extra qualifications in teaching children with specific learning difficulties- and I've got a certificate in Reading Recovery- that New Zealand method popular in the early 90s, but I CERTAINLY don't think I know it all. What I think is, it's useful to have seen so many changes and to learn to retain what has proved useful, but go on learning new things. You're never too old for that. I'm still learning and, in any line of work, I think it's good to share insights and opinions. (Incidentally, I think text language is fun!! I don't think it does any harm because I'm sure most young people keep it as a fun activity quite apart from school work!) AND I use Football! It's helped so much, actually. I've found I've got a Wolverhampton Wanderers fan amongst my little group. His Grandad takes him to watch Wolves, when he goes to visit. Football team names are great for teaching about syllables. They all know I'm a Shrewsbury Town supporter!
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