Wrighty
Midland League Division One
Posts: 465
|
Post by Wrighty on Jan 11, 2005 17:47:35 GMT 1
Out of all the friends and acquaintances I made and keep in touch with maybe 2 out of 20/25 or so are actually doing anything that vaguley relates to the course. Maybe working in the library would have suited a demure and quiet character such as myself!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2005 17:50:42 GMT 1
Uni is a great experiance and one which I would recommend - but actually how useful is it in terms of getting a job?? It depends on the course, university and degree grade you obtain. I'm starting a job in city this september after I have graduated. There is no way I'd have had any chance of getting that job without obtaining the degree I will graduate with this summer. However for other courses and universities it may be harder. As a university graduate you need to stand out from the rest. I personally think that you've wasted the majority of your time at uni if you haven't got at least a 2:1 - sorry, it's a harsh but in my opinion fair view point. However it is also masively important to have gained other skills and experiences in your time at university. Having a 1st in Classics from Oxford doesn't mean you're guaranteed a job, what's important is that you're a well rounded individual.
|
|
|
Post by Minor on Jan 11, 2005 18:03:50 GMT 1
However it is also masively important to have gained other skills and experiences in your time at university. Like spelling methinks. (Massively)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2005 18:51:09 GMT 1
When I went to University I was planning a career in computing. By the time I had finished I wanted to do anything but work with computers. I suppose it depends where you study but all my interest was drained within the first 18 months because of crap lectures, timetables and lecturers. I am now self employed and wishing I had gone down that route 3 years sooner.
|
|
|
Post by faginy on Jan 11, 2005 19:15:05 GMT 1
When I went to University I was planning a career in computing. By the time I had finished I wanted to do anything but work with computers. I suppose it depends where you study but all my interest was drained within the first 18 months because of cr@p lectures, timetables and lecturers. I am now self employed and wishing I had gone down that route 3 years sooner. just out of interest craig, what would you do if EBay went bust
|
|
BrummieBoy
Midland League Division Two
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 237
|
Post by BrummieBoy on Jan 11, 2005 19:46:03 GMT 1
Interesting post this one with some genuinely intriguing insights.
I could ramble on for hours about this sort of stuff, but I won’t (I promise). Two things occurred to me though:
1) The overriding consensus seems to be that someone goes largely (although not exclusively) to university to improve their job prospects. University was never meant as a factory that existed simply to churn out ‘more employable’ graduates. There is an element of this, don’t get me wrong, but it is supposed to be more than that. And that is what Tony Blair and the Labour government are getting at when they are encouraging more and more people to go to university. It is NOT so that they all come out with supa-dupa degrees from supa-dupa universities. Universities are multi-faceted and have very different strengths and it is the governments reluctance to point out the differences between universities that is – in my mind – their biggest failure.
The older readers of this board might remember the Polys – the new unis (I generalise a little here, I grant you) do more or less the same job as the polys did under a different name. The government abolished the poly system precisely for the underlying reason that people thought they were second class institutions and – to an extent – looked down on them. The polys (and the new unis that have superseded them) are not second class at all – they simply have different strengths stemming from a different ethos. Beware of taking up morally superior positions on these sorts of issues. New unis are training up different sorts of graduates whereas red brick institutions are much more ‘traditional’ in their approach. Red brick unis also DO encourage people to go on placements and to get experience – but it will inevitably be of a different type to someone who studies more vocational subjects at a new university. Students are actively encouraged to gain experience in law firms, in the offices of MPs, with consultancy firms etc. etc. And many do. Like Phil said earlier, it is – to a large extent - a question of what you make of it really.
2) – DRAS, you are misunderstanding university life if you think that teaching is all that a lecturer is there for. Sure, teaching is a significant and important part of the job. And, equally obviously, there are good lecturers and (very) bad ones. No doubt about it. But conducting high quality, where possible internationally recognised, research is – if anything – even more important. And for two reasons: firstly, this is where the treatments for cancer, the economic policies of the future, the understanding of where and when See quakes might strike etc. etc. comes from. All this type of stuff, in more fields than you can care to mention, comes from universities. Again, I am not saying that all lecturers do stuff that is ground breaking and worthwhile, but it is a pyramid. And without everyone trying to push the boundaries of knowledge further, those at the top won’t come up with the genuinely revolutionary stuff. I know that sounds abstract, but believe me it is true. The second point is, I am afraid, much more down to earth. Universities are funded to a large extent on the quality of their research. Crap research (or no research at all) and budgets will be slashed. That’ll mean fewer staff, worse facilities, larger class numbers etc. etc. The knock on effect will be quick and nasty. It costs around £9,000 a year to teach a student at a university – and without the money generated by high quality research many universities in Britain, probably the majority, would go bankrupt tomorrow. So, teaching is important. But it is not the be all and end all, despite what students might think.
Er, rant over I think … !
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2005 19:56:21 GMT 1
Unlike some on this thread, I absolutely loved my time at university to bits.
However there are lots of misconceptions about it, and many people's eventual experience of university may not be as good as hoped due to not being informed fully about it.
Certainly fees and budgeting for yourself is one of these messy areas. So much is made about students being hard up but I fully believe if they are given info about budgeting properly and about the other ways of getting money e.g. a summer job (it ****s me off just how many students do **** all for 4 months of the year then moan about having to pay fees etc) , a part time job, or simply cutting down on un-needed expenditures - we all have the latter.
Also, the point about university leading to a better job. This can be the case but many will not realise that top employers will only consider those with a 2:1 degree and above.
Another vital point which has already been made is that you need to have decent skills in other areas e.g. having hobbies, and being able to communicate with others, to be seen as highly employable.
To sum up, I absolutely loved University and I learnt a hell of a lot from my time there. It won't be for everyone both in terms of an experience they will enjoy or something that will lead them to a highly successful career - I'd like to think the latter was achievable for anyone who works their nackers off in whatever industry, starting at whatever level, and I know there are plenty of examples of it about too.
Fair play that was random/
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2005 20:01:40 GMT 1
just out of interest craig, what would you do if EBay went bust I'd cry a lot and then move over to QXL Seriously, I would have to get back into computing I suppose. The only proper qualifications I have all relate to IT so I wouldn't have too much choice. Over the next few months I might try and teach myself programming or maybe web design. Once I get up to a decent standard I might branch out a little and spend less time on ebay.
|
|
|
Post by CuyahogaBlue on Jan 11, 2005 20:25:06 GMT 1
Coming from a US perspective, the idea that you go to university at 18 and are stuck with the degree you choose is non-sensical. I know many, including myself, who have gone back to University to get a second degree, or to get a graduate degree in a subject totally different from their undergradute. Many Uni's offer night classes and part-time degree programs so that education can be pursued as careers change and as interests develop. PS I graduated from Birmingham Poly - and i'm proud of it
|
|
|
Post by Stevenelsonfanclub on Jan 11, 2005 20:53:56 GMT 1
I would have to say that people should clearly define the difference between university and the gaining of a degree qualification.
University life is all about the interaction between other people in a new environment and learning to adapt to different life skills. Gaining a degree is the easy bit these days, they virtually give them away in some cases.
I interview many people on a daily basis and am never amazed by the generally poor standard of graduates. I have interviewed graduiates who were barely able to speak, let alone engage people in conversations. Indeed I employed a graduate in September, only for her to leave in November because she felt that the job was too much for her! she was an administrative assistant!!!
There is no doubt that general standards of eductaion are now far beow those you would have expected 30 years ago. now, the art of constructing a letter or being polite in conversation seem to be skills of the past.
You have to blame the way successive governments have taught people that a degree is everything to behold. I had 2 guys in my class at school, these days they would be channelled down the "get a degree route" and would have ended up woith a 2:2 in "animal behaviour with ociology and physical eduction (incorporating IT on alternate wednesdays)". Instead, they went and got a trade. Roger is now the seniot technician with Ford Trucks (earning approx £35k I;d say), whilst Nigel decided to do a 5-year carpentry apprenticeship, now works for himslef doing top-standard woodworking and probably earns in excess of £40k. these days, they idea of becoming a Chippie or a mechanic would be heartily discouraged!
There are 3 sorts of people in University:
Those who are following a career plan and a degree is an essential part of that path.
Those who wish to avoid getting a job
Those who think getting a degree in anything is a jolly good idea.
As that font of all Knowledge, Throbs, rightly said, The world is full of graduates with no passion, flair or commitment who now work for the civil service earning bugger all and complaining about it to anyone who will listen. they think because they have a degree, their learning is complete for life!!!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2005 23:16:26 GMT 1
However it is also masively important to have gained other skills and experiences in your time at university. Like spelling methinks. (Massively) I've learnt how to spell just not how to proof read Does learning to be pessimistic come through experience or is it a natural 'skill'? ;D
|
|
|
Post by SeanBroseley on Jan 12, 2005 1:12:55 GMT 1
I was the first member of my family to study a degree, coming from a long line of saggar makers and related trades.
I am deeply sceptical about a degree and getting a higher paid job. Firstly there is an inflation because everyone swallowed the idea that it was the route to take. Just like technology stocks were a buy in 1998.
Secondly, you either have to very bright academically or well-connected to get into a route of a top job.
Thirdly, as someone from a working class background there was no one in my family who could show me the ropes of moving in more bourgeois and middle class circles which is an important key to the new labour market that was opening up before me. Hopefully my daughters will be better prepared as they move in more genteel circles than I ever did at their age. Although I hope they learn to make things rather than write a memo about them.
The two most important parts of the degree that have helped me in work are: 1) Assimilating new information and making practical use of it. 2) Getting me over my phobia of mathematics. I use both sets of knowledge every day. So it helps me to pay the bills.
I'm also sceptical about degree education's ability to enrich life. There is such a division of labour of intellectual knowledge that pigeon-holing is very difficult to get out of.
I take more heart from the people who I would count as working class intellectuals. For example the chap who used to live next door to me used to have a museum in his house of items he had collected over the years. What he didn't know about local history, collected by word of mouth but also through reading, wasn't worth knowing. he was a tremendous gardener too, and recorded in great detail the yields of different crops and the weather each year. Tremendous, and yet no formal education beyond the age of 14 years.
I've said before about there being nothing wrong in celebrating a simple life, in fact there is a virtue in it, and the path to that cannot be formalised into a three year course.
|
|
|
Post by Minor on Jan 12, 2005 9:54:31 GMT 1
I've learnt how to spell just not how to proof read Does learning to be pessimistic come through experience or is it a natural 'skill'? ;D
|
|
|
Post by Lufbra Salop on Jan 12, 2005 10:23:52 GMT 1
The thing going round uni now is that its actually better to get a 2:1 along with a CV of extra curricular stuff than to get a 1st. Most employers want well rounded employees and see people who got 1st's as 'eggheads'. I disagree, (and i didnt get a 1st) but thats the way it is at the moment, theres huge difficulty in differentiating degree standard applicants, thats why the uni you went to, what you did there (both inside and outside your degree) and what grade you attained are so important. I still cant believe employers ask for UCAS points 6 years after I did my A levels but thats the way the job market is these days. Then once your past that you have the interview which is usually an assessment centre followed by another assessment centre or a final interview, its almost as hard to get a good grad position as it is to actually graduate!
|
|
BrummieBoy
Midland League Division Two
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 237
|
Post by BrummieBoy on Jan 12, 2005 17:21:38 GMT 1
Sean, I can see what you're saying and I think there - to a point - is something in it. Three or four years at university cannot - and indeed it is not supposed to, despite the popular conception - mysteriously turn someone into well-rounded, intellectually sophistcated, societally aware human being. These years are (if all goes well) a step in that direction, but no one should seriously expect universities to be producing finished articles. Not when you're talking about graduates who are as young as 20.
If you look at, say, Germany people graduate when they are (on average) 25 or 26. They have had exposure to a much more rounded 'allgemein Bildung' (translated roughly as broad education, although it is really more than that) and are certainly 'further developed' (for want of a better term) than their British counterparts. British industry has, however, long since got used to this and appears perfectly happy to take young graduates and then mould them into the article it wants - take loyalshrew and his leap into the job world. He's going to have a job that's not got a great deal to do with his degree at all. This is as the cult of the generalist still dominates in the UK. That can be better or worse, depending on your standpoint, but the idea is that employers can see you can process information, get semi-coherent ideas down on paper and keep control during hectic periods of your life (i.e. exam time). They appear to be happy enough to take good graduates on the basis that they can then shape them to do what they want and without the baggage of pre-ordained ideas which continental employers complain of. Put another way, if you've done a history degree there really is no reason why you cant do any number of other things when you leave uni.
I am wary of statements like "I'd much rather my daughters made things". It's obviously your right to say that, of course, but what is wrong with not making things? The service economy is large and expanding, and many perfectly respectable tasks dont involve making anything at all. Where do teachers fit in? Or nurses? Or, at a higher level, civil servants? They are not bad people just because they don't make things. And try living without them ...
I can, of course, sense the underlying class dynamic of your argument but surely it can't do even the most class conscious person any harm to go and see what the supposed middle classes get up to. I really have difficulty with the terms, as I wonder what they actually mean in real life, but my point is none the less a simple one. If you go off and see something new, something different, then you don't have to feel like you have to behave in a completely different way. As a good working class lad I've never felt that way anyway, and I've been knocking round various universities for the best part of 12 years now ...
|
|
|
Post by jamo on Jan 12, 2005 17:40:07 GMT 1
12 years !!! about time you got a job and started putting a bit back isn't it ?
|
|
BrummieBoy
Midland League Division Two
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 237
|
Post by BrummieBoy on Jan 12, 2005 20:24:51 GMT 1
Believe me Jamo, it's not been 12 years of golf-course-bunker-design at and god-knows-what poly ... ! ;D
|
|
|
Post by JibJob on Jan 12, 2005 20:29:01 GMT 1
|
|
|
Post by Shrews and Royals on Jan 12, 2005 23:05:40 GMT 1
Out of all the friends and acquaintances I made and keep in touch with maybe 2 out of 20/25 or so are actually doing anything that vaguley relates to the course. Maybe working in the library would have suited a demure and quiet character such as myself! In our house we both have jobs that relate directly to our degree,and couldn't have got those jobs without them.
|
|