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Post by rob on Jan 11, 2005 11:40:29 GMT 1
Is University all its cracked upto be? Are young students just being sold a dream? Don't get me wrong I do enjoy being at university. However I do feel a little bit mislead. As fun as university is and interesting as it can be (through learning) is it essential? When I was at school (in the sixth form, which seems like years ago! ) the school was geared up in sucha way as to encourage children to go to uni, with barely a through given to other options. Even when applying for the armed forces, it was with the idea of getting a degree first.... Is this the right attitude? My idea of university had been hyped up so much by the school, that the idea of not going to university was scary because we were told that if you wanted a decent job you had to have a degree. When i actuallygot to uni i felt deflated and mislead for a large part of the second term in the first year (after the excitement had worn off-first term). Is this idea of selling university (as if you were an estate agent selling a house) common place in other schools? Is it only Grammar/private/public schools that push all their students towards a university education without much thought to other careers or fields of education? Hell is uni even that important now, would students be better of trying to apply for a job at 18 (with A-Levels) and trying to work their way up from the bottom whilst getting on the job training? What am I rambling on about???
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Post by DRAS on Jan 11, 2005 11:45:48 GMT 1
I agree with most of what you have put Rob... There days I think students pre-uni are made to feel like there is no life out there for you if you don't go to uni.. And im not sure that that is the case
Sometimes uni can be ace, other times its not all its cracked up to be.
I wasnt forced to go but I always thought that if I didnt, I wouldnt stand much chance getting a top level job later in life...
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Post by DRAS on Jan 11, 2005 11:46:28 GMT 1
Forgot to say that Im posting this whilst completing Uni coursework!
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Post by Minor on Jan 11, 2005 11:47:37 GMT 1
Is University all its cracked upto be? Are young students just being sold a dream? Don't get me wrong I do enjoy being at university. However I do feel a little bit mislead. As fun as university is and interesting as it can be (through learning) is it essential? When I was at school (in the sixth form, which seems like years ago! ) the school was geared up in sucha way as to encourage children to go to uni, with barely a through given to other options. Even when applying for the armed forces, it was with the idea of getting a degree first.... Is this the right attitude? My idea of university had been hyped up so much by the school, that the idea of not going to university was scary because we were told that if you wanted a decent job you had to have a degree. When i actuallygot to uni i felt deflated and mislead for a large part of the second term in the first year (after the excitement had worn off-first term). Is this idea of selling university (as if you were an estate agent selling a house) common place in other schools? Is it only Grammar/private/public schools that push all their students towards a university education without much thought to other careers or fields of education? Hell is uni even that important now, would students be better of trying to apply for a job at 18 (with A-Levels) and trying to work their way up from the bottom whilst getting on the job training? What am I rambling on about??? You are not rambling on, far from it, it would appear that you are a very level headed individual, one of the few who as you put it have been sold a 'dream', but you have rumbled that it is not all its cracked up to be. There are only so many good jobs to go round, which was okay in the days of not so many people going to 'uni' , but now with Uncle Tonys daft idea of wanting 50% of students to go onto 'uni' there are going to be a lot of very let down & disappointed individuals who will end up saying 'would you like fries with that Sir', if someone has an idea what they would like to do, they should give the careers advisor (or whatever poncy name they get these days) the two fingers and go out into the big wide world and by the time your mates have finished 'uni' with their huge debts you will have been earning for however many years, anyway thats my rant over................ for now
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jan 11, 2005 11:57:39 GMT 1
It is another government idea that is simply rubbish.
the main political parties score points off each other trying to claim they would have the highest percentage of people in higher education, but what does that mean?
If you do a decent plumbing apprenticeship you have as good a start as any, it all depends on expectation. You may not earn £60k a year but you could hit £20k
Since all the old colleges became universities it has become harder and harder to differentiate what it means to be a graduate
I got my business degree from the third best business school in the country ( i didn't want to go to London) and had several companies offering me a job, before deciding I wanted to do something different with my life.
Yet friends of mine went to university and did a buisnesss degree and are now earning £10k a year filling in forms at Shirehall. £10k a year will be struggle once wife and kids come, they can't buy a house and have debts of £15k from loans. It is false economy.
If they had done that plumbing apprenticeship they would now be on more money, but somehow it just does not have the prestige.
In the UK we have always been snobby about academia and whereas in Germany they have their guilds and engineering societies that have massive respect in the UK we think having a piece of paper with a fancy crest on it makes any difference at all.
The best bit about university is moving away from home, finding out about new people, new cultures, living independantly and thinking freely.
But what they don't tell you is that you will be a lonely 19 year old with little money far away from your parents and old support structures. Some people sink, others swim, it all depends on the individual
I think the current higher education in this country is a farce, and people are being sold a lie, and it is costing them over £10k each to make that mistake
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Post by jamo on Jan 11, 2005 11:59:45 GMT 1
There was a time when you mentioned to someone that you were a university graduate and it genuinely impressed them, now i'm afraid it's all a little diluted and carries much less respect. It seem's that everyone these days as an ology of some sort and yet you wouldn't trust a lot of them to tie their own shoe laces or form a meaningful que.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jan 11, 2005 12:01:02 GMT 1
the difference in university standards is huge
as is the difference between university grades
no-one knows what it means any more
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Post by True_Shrew on Jan 11, 2005 12:33:01 GMT 1
Good post Rob Although I wanted to go to Uni, due to a lack of funds (i.e. my parents were reluctant to support me throughout the course) I would have ended up in at least £10-12,000 worth of debt. I do still have regrets about not going but in hindsight, academic studies were never really my forte but I'm sure the prospect of having a good time blurred my judgement as my A levels results pretty much said 'that is as far as you go my son'. I haven't done badly since then, but I'm inolved in areas which acedemic studies didn't cover - i.e sales and customer service. Although I don't envy those at Uni, there are numerous foes like me who really aren't cut out for it and hence they end up dropping out, failing or not achieving much. Lets focus on the ones who are academically brighter than most and give them back the repsect that a university degree deserves.
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Post by Minor on Jan 11, 2005 12:38:57 GMT 1
Good post Rob Although I wanted to go to Uni, due to a lack of funds (i.e. my parents were reluctant to support me throughout the course) I would have ended up in at least £10-12,000 worth of debt. I do still have regrets about not going but in hindsight, academic studies were never really my forte but I'm sure the prospect of having a good time blurred my judgement as my A levels results pretty much said 'that is as far as you go my son'. I haven't done badly since then, but I'm inolved in areas which acedemic studies didn't cover - i.e sales and customer service. Although I don't envy those at Uni, there are numerous foes like me who really aren't cut out for it and hence they end up dropping out, failing or not achieving much. Lets focus on the ones who are academically brighter than most and give them back the repsect that a university degree deserves. Equally good post
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2005 12:51:52 GMT 1
To do well from a university degree you need to work hard and obtain a decent grade from a respected establishment.
The idea of getting 50% of kids to go to university is ridiculous. The government should also be putting an equal amount of time into advertising trainee schemes and apprenticeships as they do with advertising university places.
Personally I will be £20,000 in debt when I finish uni but I know this will have been money well spent.
You will only get out of university what you are prepared to put in.
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Post by Lufbra Salop on Jan 11, 2005 13:23:38 GMT 1
I think the government may be starting to cotton on to the fact that this 50% target is ridiculous simple because of the lack of a skills base in this country. I worked for McCain Foods on my year out and the major problem they had was finding engineering fitters, there wasn’t anyone with the right skills available and no apprenticeships existed to help fill the vacancy.
The people that were right for apprenticeships now have the option to go to uni and sit around for 3 years, which is a far easier option than actually working and provides a qualification that they feel will be of high value. Except it doesn’t, you hear that the average grad wage is £20k plus but that’s for the ones that do get a job, for those that don’t you now have a potentially worthless degree from a bog standard university.
My advice to anyone considering university is to only go for the top ones in the degree field you are considering, I went to Loughborough to do design engineering and because there are so many top people in engineering that went to Loughborough and because of its reputation as a 'premier league' uni, the majority of us get jobs when we leave. That isn’t to say that if you go to a lower standard uni and get a 1st you wont get a job, but it makes it a hell of a lot easier.
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Post by Staly on Jan 11, 2005 13:26:43 GMT 1
I love Universities- good pay and good pension.
Wouldn't want to actually be a student these days though...
I find Universities operate better when the studes are on holiday, generally.
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Post by dras on Jan 11, 2005 13:33:22 GMT 1
Teaching students seems to be a distraction for most academics I tend to find
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Post by AFC Sim on Jan 11, 2005 13:42:01 GMT 1
Gotta agree with Rob. Looking towards going off to Uni in September, it's always felt asthough students at college (New College) who didn't want to go to Uni weren't given as much "support" during the "crucial" second year of college as those who did aspire to go and get a meaningless degree. Nethertheless, I'll still be hoping to be at Uni come September, 'cos the constant thought that's going through my head, thanks to college staff etc, is that without Uni you'll become a lowlife without a half-decent job.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2005 14:04:53 GMT 1
Perhaps the considerations are different these days in deciding whether to go to uni or not but I still think I would decide to go if I had the opportunity. This generation will probably end up working until they are 70 and beyond and however much you enjoy your job, that is a hell of a long time- so putting off the rat race for 3 or 4 years to get a different kind of experience at uni seems a good idea. I know money is a big factor- I am not comfortable with credit and owing 20K after getting my degree would have stressed me out. I was lucky to go to uni when there were means tested grants and that was plenty to see me through. Jobs wise I am not sure what difference it makes- Phil's right- you usually get back what you put in and there is no reason why people missing out uni cannot have very successful careers if they put a lot into their first jobs.
Rob, I hated Reading Uni for the whole of the 1st year, mainly because I was not happy with my course. But after changing courses, everything got better and I had a great time and made some life long friends. Sure the loan system now would concern me but I would do it all again
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Post by stainesr on Jan 11, 2005 14:11:42 GMT 1
I was the archetypal student who hated students. Academically I was OK and got into Manchester to do biochemistry but got there and hated it. I switched to humanities and did English and American studies at Keele. Luckily I got to study in the US and this totally changed my perspective on what had been up until then a fairly depressing experience. It was in my second year and gave me the motivation to get through the final year. My advice to anyone at university is to think ahead and try and get work experience in a field that interests you before you finish. This will hopefully set you apart from the thousands of other graduates applying for jobs. Doing work experience was just as important as completing my degree.
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Post by Minor on Jan 11, 2005 14:49:16 GMT 1
I was the archetypal student who hated students. Academically I was OK and got into Manchester to do biochemistry but got there and hated it. I switched to humanities and did English and American studies at Keele. Luckily I got to study in the US and this totally changed my perspective on what had been up until then a fairly depressing experience. It was in my second year and gave me the motivation to get through the final year. My advice to anyone at university is to think ahead and try and get work experience in a field that interests you before you finish. This will hopefully set you apart from the thousands of other graduates applying for jobs. Doing work experience was just as important as completing my degree.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jan 11, 2005 14:49:23 GMT 1
I did a course witha placement year for your third year
My final year was totally different because of the practical experience
and having a blue chip company on the CV on graduation also helped
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2005 15:18:27 GMT 1
Horses for courses.
Can't stand the moral high-ground taken by so many on this issue.
Listen to people's advice sure but personally I'd do whatever suits you, and make of both the situation and the system.
Me, I never worried about what I was going to do, where I was going to do it, work experience etc. etc. but I'm pretty happy with the way stuff's worked out.
I just went to University because it sounded like fun, Aberystwyth because it's beautiful there and to do politics because I thought I'd like it.
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Post by stainesr on Jan 11, 2005 15:33:40 GMT 1
Too right Welsh shrew. I just say what I say because I wouldn't want anyone else to be as sh8t miserable as I was for a year doing the wrong course not knowing what to do etc etc etc...
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Post by CuyahogaBlue on Jan 11, 2005 15:35:17 GMT 1
From the Sunday Times www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8403-1246746,00.html Phil Brown, professor of sociology at Cardiff University and an expert in the field of graduate employment, claims there has been a “mismanagement of expectations”. “A university education no longer guarantees higher earnings and a middle-class lifestyle,” according to Brown. “If you think university is about personal growth that is fine but there is no doubt at all that many people going to university in the expectation of a graduate premium are going to be disappointed.” My Comments: A graduate increases their odds of a "good" paying job. Not all graduates will embark on careers of their choice or get "good" paying jods. I work at a University, and I think knowlegde, wether it be history, literature, or biochemistry and theoretical physics - is worthwhile studying and expanding our knowledge base. What an individual student gets out of a university experince is really up to that individual.
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Post by jamo on Jan 11, 2005 16:00:56 GMT 1
[quote
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I just went to University because it sounded like fun, Aberystwyth because it's beautiful there and to do politics because I thought I'd like it.
[/quote]
Any practical lesson's on the curriculum ..?
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Post by mattsnapper2 on Jan 11, 2005 16:05:32 GMT 1
i got a job and paid my taxes to pay for my mates drinking and drugging themselves up
travel is the best university of life - PS how is murray !
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2005 16:05:40 GMT 1
Any practical lesson's on the curriculum ..? Nope but we were taught how to use apostrophes.....
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Post by mattsnapper2 on Jan 11, 2005 16:10:50 GMT 1
I learnt about 'apostrophes' when I was 7 at Meole Brace Junior School !!
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Post by stainesr on Jan 11, 2005 16:35:33 GMT 1
one of the things that used to fuel my hatred of students was bad punctuation and awful spelling. The university rag was terrible, full of typos. It was depressing that supposedly intelligent people were so crap and lazy.
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Post by jamo on Jan 11, 2005 16:39:13 GMT 1
I learnt about 'apostrophes' when I was 7 at Meole Brace Junior School !! It's almost impossible to believe that you are a product of the same seat of learning as myself, JP and Bilbo. What went wrong Matt ?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2005 16:41:54 GMT 1
It's almost impossible to believe that you are a product of the same seat of learning as myself, JP and Bilbo. What went wrong Matt ? Crikey, what a quartet.
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Post by mattsnapper2 on Jan 11, 2005 16:56:53 GMT 1
It's almost impossible to believe that you are a product of the same seat of learning as myself, JP and Bilbo. What went wrong Matt ? what went wrong..? at Meole Big School I sat next to my still best mate Julie and a certain Rachel Greenley and spent most of the time staring at the lush Amanda. Went on endless trips with Chris Smith getting home late which affected my education as i was too tired for school the next day nearly got kicked out of photoschool (waste of time) for skyving to see town play barnsley the best education I got was from my dad who me to the meadow when I was 4 or 5. All my friends and my life revolved around STFC from then on. Sad arent I ! blame Paul Maguire !!
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Post by Amy on Jan 11, 2005 17:20:01 GMT 1
I agree, university is packaged up to look like an appealing neccessity for school leavers (regardless of grades - theres something for everyone) and the whole thing is supposed to be the best days of your life.
I personally hope there are days that will be better than being in a hall of residence off the main campus with nobody from my course in my first year, being in a house with three medics and a chemist in my second year, being obiged to move into a worse house than that in my third year and facing up to the fact that a sociology degree alone is not going to bring me financial security.
When I leave uni I will be in at least £12,000 debt and facing competition in the job market from people who didnt go to uni and have spent the last three years earning money and practiacal experience- they will be able to move into the cities where most jobs are, I will not. I won't have money to pay for a deposit on a house, on a car, etc. I will have few choices except to move back home and work at tescos until I can raise the cash to do what I want.
Students are painted as reckless, drug smoking, drinking hooligans. A visit to my student house would paint a different picture - we plan our meals around soaps and spend most evenings watching ER dvd's with a cup of tea, I think we probably spend more on wagon wheels than we do on clubbing.
I agree that you get out what you put in and I'm not saying I'm having a bad time at uni - I put a lot of effort into my work and I hope to come out with a 2:1 at least. I don't doss away my free time I volunteer at a local school and am starting to volunteer at the QMC hospital after january exams. Uni is a great experiance and one which I would recommend - but actually how useful is it in terms of getting a job??
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