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Post by zenfootball2 on Apr 25, 2024 8:01:39 GMT 1
I believe we only have one first team player who has come up from the academy, I know we have a few in the squad.
We seem to produce academy players who are that level do well but don't progress to first team level. I wonder what people think is the issue Do we have managers who are not willing to give them a chance? Or don't we have a system in place were academy players can make the progression to first team player?
A few years back when we played Crewe ten of the players were from the academy.
Whilst that might be the exception, financially we are spending money on an academy team and getting a poor return on the investment.
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Post by tarporleyblue on Apr 25, 2024 9:14:49 GMT 1
An interesting topic for sure.
I know in the past that I've asked the same questions on this board.
It's been the case in recent seasons that the youngsters coming through (apart from Tom Bloxham and Travis Hearns) have just not been good enough. How many of them have ended up playing in the non league or have taken up new careers?
Given our financial position and the club's strategy moving forward, the development of young players, to hopefully sell on in the future will be a key task for the Director of Football.
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Apr 25, 2024 9:33:41 GMT 1
It's a HUGE gap from playing under 18s to first team.
Having no reserve team is a big barrier imo. I thought we did well playing a load of youngsters plus a few fringe players in the Pizza cup last game at the stadium, and was hoping that we might arrange some more friendlies against other local teams along the same vein.
Maybe trying to play 1 game per month like that from July onwards would help to bring them on and see if any are worth a few games in the league.
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Post by ProudSalopian on Apr 25, 2024 9:39:42 GMT 1
The Hernes deal will justify the academy being in place for now, although if our financial position continues as is, you question whether it's something that we can afford to keep running.
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 25, 2024 10:18:21 GMT 1
The Academy is part of MM's remit. It will take a while but needs to produce the goods to survive. If I was MM I would be thinking how I could bridge the gap Grizzly talks about above, loans or games, to bring them on from academy to first team.
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Post by tarporleyblue on Apr 25, 2024 10:19:03 GMT 1
It's a HUGE gap from playing under 18s to first team. Having no reserve team is a big barrier imo. I thought we did well playing a load of youngsters plus a few fringe players in the Pizza cup last game at the stadium, and was hoping that we might arrange some more friendlies against other local teams along the same vein. Maybe trying to play 1 game per month like that from July onwards would help to bring them on and see if any are worth a few games in the league. There was the Kidderminster behind closed doors friendly.
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Apr 25, 2024 11:31:25 GMT 1
It's a HUGE gap from playing under 18s to first team. Having no reserve team is a big barrier imo. I thought we did well playing a load of youngsters plus a few fringe players in the Pizza cup last game at the stadium, and was hoping that we might arrange some more friendlies against other local teams along the same vein. Maybe trying to play 1 game per month like that from July onwards would help to bring them on and see if any are worth a few games in the league. There was the Kidderminster behind closed doors friendly. Yes. But that was only 1 game, was thinking more like 1 each month or so. And in a setting a bit like the Pizza cup with spectators allowed in and possibly a reporter doing a small article about the game too. Makes it much more like a stepping stone rather than a behind closed doors friendly (well I think so at least)
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Post by wakemanender on Apr 25, 2024 12:17:04 GMT 1
Much prefer the days when we had a reserve team and there was no such thing as an academy. Once again its the game moving forward and leaving me behind but will never agree that the game is better now with all the changes.
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Post by secretshrew on Apr 25, 2024 12:38:06 GMT 1
One of the problems might be that if we get someone good enough eg Hernes that a PL team come along and sign them for a tribunal fee or for a nominal fee thus our incentive to produce is lower than it used to be. Just a thought and I know there are loads of exceptions. Also our league position and manager ethos haven’t exactly been ideal environments for a ‘youth first’ policy!
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Post by tarporleyblue on Apr 25, 2024 12:47:23 GMT 1
There was the Kidderminster behind closed doors friendly. Yes. But that was only 1 game, was thinking more like 1 each month or so. And in a setting a bit like the Pizza cup with spectators allowed in and possibly a reporter doing a small article about the game too. Makes it much more like a stepping stone rather than a behind closed doors friendly (well I think so at least) Hopefully we will have more of these games next season. I used to enjoy going to watch the reserves in action.
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Post by Rusholme Ruffian on Apr 25, 2024 13:13:35 GMT 1
I'm sure we had more or less a carbon copy of this thread a year ago. Another season passes with minimal involvement from youth team, but that doesn't meant it shouldn't exist to me. My main issue is that the gap between u18 and first team is not being bridged with anything - no reserve team, no/very few friendlies and none of them going out on loan. The likelihood of one of them being able to make that huge jump seems pretty slim in towns circumstances being towards the bottom of league one
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Post by tarporleyblue on Apr 25, 2024 13:26:44 GMT 1
I'm sure we had more or less a carbon copy of this thread a year ago. Another season passes with minimal involvement from youth team, but that doesn't meant it shouldn't exist to me. My main issue is that the gap between u18 and first team is not being bridged with anything - no reserve team, no/very few friendlies and none of them going out on loan. The likelihood of one of them being able to make that huge jump seems pretty slim in towns circumstances being towards the bottom of league one The role of the academy has come up for discussion on a number of occasions in recent seasons. The prospect of academy players making it into the first team seems very remote at the moment, it could be that the current and most recent crop of youngsters are just not good enough for the step up.
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Post by ProudSalopian on Apr 25, 2024 13:42:20 GMT 1
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 25, 2024 13:44:32 GMT 1
'One of the problems might be that if we get someone good enough eg Hernes that a PL team come along and sign them for a tribunal fee or for a nominal fee thus our incentive is produce is lower than it used to be. Just a thought and I know there are loads of exceptions. Also our league position and manager ethos haven’t exactly been ideal environments for a ‘youth first’ policy!'
'I'm sure we had more or less a carbon copy of this thread a year ago. Another season passes with minimal involvement from youth team, but that doesn't meant it shouldn't exist to me. My main issue is that the gap between u18 and first team is not being bridged with anything - no reserve team, no/very few friendlies and none of them going out on loan. The likelihood of one of them being able to make that huge jump seems pretty slim in towns circumstances being towards the bottom of league one'
That's part of Mr Moore's job. As evidenced by the 3 year contract signed by Travis just prior to a transfer to Newcastle. MM has to ensure value for money and playing opportunities from the academy, if we just had a manager they would probably miss tricks like that as their priority is the first team.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Apr 25, 2024 13:53:01 GMT 1
Personally I think we need to be absolutely front of the queue for picking up cast offs from other clubs academies too.
There are some players with loads of potential cast off every season.
We had no part in the development of Ogbeta at Man City.
He cost us nothing.
We sold him for was it £250k a season later.
That's another good model.
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Post by DiglisShrew on Apr 25, 2024 13:59:36 GMT 1
I believe we only have one first team player who has come up from the academy, I know we have a few in the squad. We seem to produce academy players who are that level do well but don't progress to first team level. I wonder what people think is the issue Do we have managers who are not willing to give them a chance? Or don't we have a system in place were academy players can make the progression to first team player? A few years back when we played Crewe ten of the players were from the academy. Whilst that might be the exception, financially we are spending money on an academy team and getting a poor return on the investment. The original 2022 accounts ( for whatever reason) had to be restated after being submitted to CH and that years AGM. I noticed that looking at 2023 comparatives none of the Academy income and expenditure had been included ( Auditors at fault ?) . The restated accounts revealed that the academy cost the club around £500K net that year !!
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Post by akpaakpost on Apr 25, 2024 15:08:39 GMT 1
One of the problems might be that if we get someone good enough eg Hernes that a PL team come along and sign them for a tribunal fee or for a nominal fee thus our incentive is produce is lower than it used to be. Just a thought and I know there are loads of exceptions. Also our league position and manager ethos haven’t exactly been ideal environments for a ‘youth first’ policy! This is the biggest problem, we had a player poached by Manchester United last year who was 14, he was probably our best prospect at the club, and as far as I’m aware we got nothing for him and had no choice in the matter (please correct me if I’m wrong with this last part).
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Post by chameleon on Apr 25, 2024 15:24:14 GMT 1
The Academy are relocating next season so will be close to the first team in training. Hursty will be able to keep a close watch on the youngsters. So that could help.
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Post by vladimir on Apr 25, 2024 15:26:17 GMT 1
I believe we only have one first team player who has come up from the academy, I know we have a few in the squad. We seem to produce academy players who are that level do well but don't progress to first team level. I wonder what people think is the issue Do we have managers who are not willing to give them a chance? Or don't we have a system in place were academy players can make the progression to first team player? A few years back when we played Crewe ten of the players were from the academy. Whilst that might be the exception, financially we are spending money on an academy team and getting a poor return on the investment. The original 2022 accounts ( for whatever reason) had to be restated after being submitted to CH and that years AGM. I noticed that looking at 2023 comparatives none of the Academy income and expenditure had been included ( Auditors at fault ?) . The restated accounts revealed that the academy cost the club around £500K net that year !! Is that definitely net cost? With the EPPP the club will get considerable funding from the Prem for its academy operations. Same thread as last season really. Do we want to close the pipeline to potentially producing a youngster that could earn the club millions or continue on. There's no doubt the quality and quantity has decreased and it's not hard to see why as parents want their kids as Category one and two academies and players want to be there also as they get paid more as scholars, better facilities and get stay into their 20's. Of course we could do a Brentford and scrap the whole lot and just run a B team of Premier youth lad cast offs. But then we would get no EPPP money and it'd all be in house funding for it's operations ( and probably cost more hence why more clubs haven't done this).
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Post by jamo on Apr 25, 2024 15:27:31 GMT 1
Much prefer the days when we had a reserve team and there was no such thing as an academy. Once again its the game moving forward and leaving me behind but will never agree that the game is better now with all the changes. I wonder about this also. I do think sometimes that the academy environment does not produce enough competitive experience against more seasoned Pro’s than the Reserve team fixtures would have done. And I used to love going to reserve games because you often got to see really enjoyable games in a stress free environment
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Post by iestywfc on Apr 25, 2024 16:10:00 GMT 1
from another clubs perspective. we also don't have a reserves team and rely on behind closed door friendlies to get fitness levels for players returning from injury etc. regards our academy, after our much longer than necessary stint in NL (where our academy pretty much operated on a shoestring budget and our legacy of bringing players through from our youth to first team suffered as a result) it is starting to get back on its feet. now we are back in the league we are getting the necessary funding to develop our academy back now. Its going to take a while to get us back to producing what we were back in the day, and i have heard we will be taking the released players from other local prem teams etc to subsidise in the meantime we are signing players to pro deals who we think are worthy of a place in the squad then farming them off on loan a few steps below to get them used to mens football, do you guys not do the same? anyway our academy is doing well, one win away from winning our league. www.wrexhamafc.co.uk/matches/first-team-fixtures/fixtures/u18-team/202324/march/-vs-wrexham-afc-on-09-mar-24/#report
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Post by DiglisShrew on Apr 25, 2024 16:17:06 GMT 1
Much prefer the days when we had a reserve team and there was no such thing as an academy. Once again its the game moving forward and leaving me behind but will never agree that the game is better now with all the changes. I wonder about this also. I do think sometimes that the academy environment does not produce enough competitive experience against more seasoned Pro’s than the Reserve team fixtures would have done. And I used to love going to reserve games because you often got to see really enjoyable games in a stress free environment Loss per original 2022 accounts £ 301407 Restated Loss 2022 accounts £751250
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Post by staffordshrew on Apr 25, 2024 16:18:52 GMT 1
The Academy are relocating next season so will be close to the first team in training. Hursty will be able to keep a close watch on the youngsters. So that could help. With Moore keeping an eye on other academies released players and presenting possibles to Hurst?
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Post by zenfootball2 on Apr 25, 2024 17:15:37 GMT 1
Just to be clear I was not advocating scrapping the academy, As others have mentioned with no reserve games, we need something to be a bridge to the first team.
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Post by tarporleyblue on Apr 25, 2024 17:47:10 GMT 1
We don't seem to get as much info nowadays from the club as to how well the academy team is performing.
I've struggled to find much info online about the EFL youth alliance league.
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Post by belfastshrew on Apr 25, 2024 17:58:37 GMT 1
I would like to hear more about how the academy are getting on. I'm enjoying finding out more about the Town Ladies this season.
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Post by pughywasfree on Apr 25, 2024 18:07:28 GMT 1
When was the last time we had a manager that gave them a chance?
I'd be in favour of giving them a chance even if it harms some chances of winning a game.
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Post by vladimir on Apr 25, 2024 19:03:19 GMT 1
I wonder about this also. I do think sometimes that the academy environment does not produce enough competitive experience against more seasoned Pro’s than the Reserve team fixtures would have done. And I used to love going to reserve games because you often got to see really enjoyable games in a stress free environment Loss per original 2022 accounts £ 301407 Restated Loss 2022 accounts £751250 So with about half a mill funding through EPPP is the academy really costing us a mil a season? I do wonder if the club might drop down to a Cat 4, be a real shame to see us do so. Hoping the move from the sports village to the Meadow helps on cost and output.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 26, 2024 6:17:36 GMT 1
Didn't we have a few players train with us during the week and then play every week for Bridgnorth Town lower down the pyramid to gain experience in the men's game back in the 90s. Kev Seabury was one I'm sure.
Would it worthwhile to use clubs like Telford, Bridgnorth, Alport or Shifnal to blood a few of our prospects? One month rolling loans could be worth looking at.
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Post by ProudSalopian on Apr 26, 2024 9:14:38 GMT 1
Didn't we have a few players train with us during the week and then play every week for Bridgnorth Town lower down the pyramid to gain experience in the men's game back in the 90s. Kev Seabury was one I'm sure.
Would it worthwhile to use clubs like Telford, Bridgnorth, Alport or Shifnal to blood a few of our prospects? One month rolling loans could be worth looking at.
We did have a 'relationship' with Telford a few years ago, not sure if that has died a death. The idea was we would loan out our promising youngsters and then have first pick of any of their decent players, there hasn't been a lot of success on that front (I think the only player who went to them was Kade Craig)
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