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Post by jamo on Mar 29, 2023 18:44:09 GMT 1
Wasn’t sure if this should be on here, or on the B&A specialist site for the accepted intelligentsia. Anyway, as it’s basically a maritime question I decided this was the most appropriate place
The ‘small boats’ issue that has dominated this country’s agenda for well over 2 years- and which is unsustainable and needs proper focus and understanding in order for a solution to be found, is apparently going to be solved by moving those people involved from small boats to great big boats, in some cases ocean liners and ferries.
This’ll work right ?
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Post by Valerioch on Mar 29, 2023 19:21:58 GMT 1
Has it dominated the agenda for well over 2 years? Not sure on that one
BBC tried to claim similar, if not more, on the 6 o’clock news this evening
Personally I thought the Covid obsessed MSM turned a convenient blind eye on this huge issue until it was forced upon them, by those with genuine concerns about what was/is going on and the problems and dangers it brings.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Mar 29, 2023 19:37:09 GMT 1
It doesn't sound like a great solution but then what's the alternative? We've gutted public services over the years; social housing provision is inadequate, let alone any sort of appropriate accommodation for these people whilst their cases are processed.
At least it's a few hotel owners off the gravy train but I don't doubt the usual suspects the government will be turning to to staff these things will take their place. I'm sure they'll be providing fully trained staff too and there'll be no risk of abuse or other safeguarding issues at all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 19:51:35 GMT 1
What indeed is the alternative?
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Post by Flixton_shrew on Mar 29, 2023 19:58:00 GMT 1
Moving them from small boats to bigger boats will definitely accomplish one of the important objectives of the present government, which is to ensure that large contracts are dished out to their backers, with minimal financial scrutiny, to run these, ahem, well thought out solutions. Tory media will support the government by ensuring plentiful front page headlines highlighting the cost of, and terror posed by migrants arriving by boat. Readers of these papers will be apoplectic, and make it their major topic of conversation to anyone willing (or unwilling) to listen. Tories will try and leverage their unworkable solution as a reason to vote for them by misrepresenting the solutions put forward by other parties. Meanwhile, desperate people fleeing from war and persecution, will be unaware that they are cynically being used by a desperate government to cling on to power. I predict that 'small boats' or 'big boats' wont be a thing once the next election is a few weeks in the past...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2023 20:02:40 GMT 1
Labour, of course will have all the answers. Roll on the general election.
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Post by Valerioch on Mar 29, 2023 20:09:46 GMT 1
Moving them from small boats to bigger boats will definitely accomplish one of the important objectives of the present government, which is to ensure that large contracts are dished out to their backers, with minimal financial scrutiny, to run these, ahem, well thought out solutions. Tory media will support the government by ensuring plentiful front page headlines highlighting the cost of, and terror posed by migrants arriving by boat. Readers of these papers will be apoplectic, and make it their major topic of conversation to anyone willing (or unwilling) to listen. Tories will try and leverage their unworkable solution as a reason to vote for them by misrepresenting the solutions put forward by other parties. Meanwhile, desperate people fleeing from war and persecution, will be unaware that they are cynically being used by a desperate government to cling on to power. I predict that 'small boats' or 'big boats' wont be a thing once the next election is a few weeks in the past... Where’s the war in Albania sorry?
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Post by frankwellshrews on Mar 29, 2023 20:12:26 GMT 1
Labour, of course will have all the answers. Roll on the general election. Labour aren't going to be able to solve it overnight; the reality is it will take a decade or more to rebuild public services after the vandalism of the last decade or so and this will doubtlessly have the usual clever clogs telling us they told us so.
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Post by ProudSalopian on Mar 29, 2023 20:55:17 GMT 1
If the idea is they will house them temporarily whilst they process their application, then it seems a sensible approach. For those that are genuinely fleeing war/persecution then they can then be put into some proper accommodation and hopefully go onto lead a happy & safe life whilst contributing to the country. For those that aren't, then they can be returned to their country of origin.
I don't expect it will happen though and instead the process remains in chaos whilst individuals/companies get rich from the gov't (taxpayer) paying for hundreds of hotels to be full of asylum seekers, whilst having a negative impact on the surrounding areas
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Post by kenwood on Mar 30, 2023 11:13:51 GMT 1
Wasn’t sure if this should be on here, or on the B&A specialist site for the accepted intelligentsia. Anyway, as it’s basically a maritime question I decided this was the most appropriate place The ‘small boats’ issue that has dominated this country’s agenda for well over 2 years- and which is unsustainable and needs proper focus and understanding in order for a solution to be found, is apparently going to be solved by moving those people involved from small boats to great big boats, in some cases ocean liners and ferries. This’ll work right ? Will it work ? Hmm dunno . Just watched Great Expectations and for some reason this modern day solution suddenly doesn’t seem so good.
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Post by davycrockett on Mar 30, 2023 11:23:31 GMT 1
We used to see asylum seekers trying to board lorries and the channel tunnel every night in the news. Solution was more security, and control to stop this route….. Solution for traffickers was to move to small boats. My view stop the small boats leaving France is the only way. We’ve just given them half a billion pounds to increase beach security (again) but with no penalty (for France) if they do ‘allow’ more boats to leave.
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Mar 30, 2023 11:30:41 GMT 1
Standard politics these days - Yvette Cooper spends 4 minutes pointing out everything they’ve done wrong and what the Labour Party would’ve done, or have been demanding, and Robert Jenrick stands up and says ‘Labour don’t have a plan’.
Unfortunately the Labour don’t have a plan angle seems to be cutting through. I’m not sure that having a plan that is catastrophically failing is such a win mind.
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Post by Pilch on Mar 30, 2023 11:48:04 GMT 1
Labour, of course will have all the answers. Roll on the general election. Labour aren't going to be able to solve it overnight; the reality is it will take a decade or more to rebuild public services after the vandalism of the last decade or so and this will doubtlessly have the usual clever clogs telling us they told us so. here's labours script for their first term in office as soon as they get challenged for not doing 'things' "we've been left in such a mess by the previous government that it will take years to put right"
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Post by kenwood on Mar 30, 2023 12:09:04 GMT 1
Labour aren't going to be able to solve it overnight; the reality is it will take a decade or more to rebuild public services after the vandalism of the last decade or so and this will doubtlessly have the usual clever clogs telling us they told us so. here's labours script for their first term in office as soon as they get challenged for not doing 'things' "we've been left in such a mess by the previous government that it will take years to put right" That’s nailed on . I think all the big betting comp.have stopped taking bets on it😉 Similarly the Tory’s couldn’t wait to blame Labour for leaving the pot empty when they came into power. Remember the famous note? It’s the way of the World unfortunately , don’t address the issues , blame the previous administration first off . I am coming around more to your way of thinking and hopefully getting away from the usual Tory / Labour s**t show .
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Post by davycrockett on Mar 30, 2023 12:30:29 GMT 1
Labour aren't going to be able to solve it overnight; the reality is it will take a decade or more to rebuild public services after the vandalism of the last decade or so and this will doubtlessly have the usual clever clogs telling us they told us so. here's labours script for their first term in office as soon as they get challenged for not doing 'things' "we've been left in such a mess by the previous government that it will take years to put right" Wouldn’t surprise me, think that’s what the Tories said and they’ve gone backwards…..
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Post by servernaside on Mar 30, 2023 12:39:54 GMT 1
Labour, of course will have all the answers. Roll on the general election. Labour aren't going to be able to solve it overnight; the reality is it will take a decade or more to rebuild public services after the vandalism of the last decade or so and this will doubtlessly have the usual clever clogs telling us they told us so. Pray, what 'public services' require 'rebuilding' in order to house a never ending flow of economic migrants?
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Post by Pilch on Mar 30, 2023 12:52:56 GMT 1
here's labours script for their first term in office as soon as they get challenged for not doing 'things' "we've been left in such a mess by the previous government that it will take years to put right" Wouldn’t surprise me, think that’s what the Tories said and they’ve gone backwards….. that's what all the tories bashers will say on here to when i point out nothing being done 😝
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Post by mattmw on Mar 30, 2023 13:54:35 GMT 1
Reading into the issue over the last few weeks since the Illegal Immigration Bill process started, and the real issue seems to be in the processing of applications, which has really slowed down in recent years. Although its not overly clear why
Even with the small boats issue, the amount of asylum applications being made each year is pretty consistant over the last ten years, but the process of assessing applications has really slowed down in the last 5 years, leading to the big back log we see now. I thought at first this was due to less Home Office staff being available, but thats actually gone up from around 600 5 years ago to 1200 now.
What seems to have slowed is the rate decisions are being made - in the mid 2010s case workers were processing 12-13 applications each month, now the average is around 3-4 a month. Its not quite clear why cases are taking longer - maybe they are more complex now than 10 years ago. The criteria for approval might be getting stricter so the process takes longer, although around 70% of applications get approved still.
Even with more staff and resources going into the asylum process it looks like a quick solution to the issue isn't likely to happen soon
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Post by frankwellshrews on Mar 30, 2023 14:16:29 GMT 1
Labour aren't going to be able to solve it overnight; the reality is it will take a decade or more to rebuild public services after the vandalism of the last decade or so and this will doubtlessly have the usual clever clogs telling us they told us so. Pray, what 'public services' require 'rebuilding' in order to house a never ending flow of economic migrants? The border force? I.e. the people who's job it's supposed to be to, y'know, secure the borders. Home office? A key issue is processing of claims which seems to take forever now. Local government or other care providers who are supposed to house and look after individuals when they're here. Police? Take your pick, it's all been decimated under the current government and now we can't manage an issue that's much smaller than other countries that actually have land borders with countries in conflict or suffering economic disasters. If you think the UK has a "never ending" stream, go and look at what's happening in places like Colombia or Turkey or even Greece, Malta etc.
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Post by staffordshrew on Mar 30, 2023 14:24:49 GMT 1
Pray, what 'public services' require 'rebuilding' in order to house a never ending flow of economic migrants? The border force? I.e. the people who's job it's supposed to be to, y'know, secure the borders. Home office? A key issue is processing of claims which seems to take forever now. Local government or other care providers who are supposed to house and look after individuals when they're here. Police? Take your pick, it's all been decimated under the current government and now we can't manage an issue that's much smaller than other countries that actually have land borders with countries in conflict or suffering economic disasters. If you think the UK has a "never ending" stream, go and look at what's happening in places like Colombia or Turkey or even Greece, Malta etc. Stop the strean for too long and you can kiss goodbye to retirement. As we have experienced over the years, economic migrants want to work, hard, and, you know, make money.
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Post by mattmw on Mar 30, 2023 15:24:22 GMT 1
Pray, what 'public services' require 'rebuilding' in order to house a never ending flow of economic migrants? The border force? I.e. the people who's job it's supposed to be to, y'know, secure the borders. Home office? A key issue is processing of claims which seems to take forever now. Local government or other care providers who are supposed to house and look after individuals when they're here. Police? Take your pick, it's all been decimated under the current government and now we can't manage an issue that's much smaller than other countries that actually have land borders with countries in conflict or suffering economic disasters. If you think the UK has a "never ending" stream, go and look at what's happening in places like Colombia or Turkey or even Greece, Malta etc. Another big factor in the need to reinvest in public services especially the home office, is the new immigration policies needed to replace free movement of travel from the EU. The Government still plans to have around 500,000 migrants come into the UK each year to work and study, but rather than the relatively simple process for EU workers to come here under the EU free movement rules, it is replaced by a visa skills system linked to different trades. The skill levels required to obtain a visa change reguarly depending on the needs of different industries. In my opinion its not a bad system, but has created the need for much more Home Office and Department of Trade staff to deal with the Visas, monitor them and work with different industries to make sure the Visa critera is able to meet their demand for workers. Securing boarders is not a cheap process, both in terms of staff needed to administer it and keep the policies updated
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Post by davycrockett on Mar 30, 2023 16:10:28 GMT 1
Wouldn’t surprise me, think that’s what the Tories said and they’ve gone backwards….. that's what all the tories bashers will say on here to when i point out nothing being done 😝 So you’ve already made your mind up what’s going to happen but don’t seem to comment on what’s actually happening now (or not happening).
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Mar 30, 2023 19:08:08 GMT 1
that's what all the tories bashers will say on here to when i point out nothing being done 😝 So you’ve already made your mind up what’s going to happen but don’t seem to comment on what’s actually happening now (or not happening). In all likelihood he’s right, governments don’t tend to change at a point in time when a country is in great shape so it’s to be expected and the ‘it’s the previous government’s fault’ line is a familiar one across all parties. I still find it hard though to follow the logic that the people best placed to fix the mess are the ones who’ve created it and refuse to take any accountability for it, and who’ve been talking the talk for years now with worsening results to show for it.
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Post by servernaside on Mar 30, 2023 19:47:10 GMT 1
The border force? I.e. the people who's job it's supposed to be to, y'know, secure the borders. Home office? A key issue is processing of claims which seems to take forever now. Local government or other care providers who are supposed to house and look after individuals when they're here. Police? Take your pick, it's all been decimated under the current government and now we can't manage an issue that's much smaller than other countries that actually have land borders with countries in conflict or suffering economic disasters. If you think the UK has a "never ending" stream, go and look at what's happening in places like Colombia or Turkey or even Greece, Malta etc. Stop the strean for too long and you can kiss goodbye to retirement. As we have experienced over the years, economic migrants want to work, hard, and, you know, make money. The points you make regarding the Border Force, Home Office and Police have got absolutely nothing the do with funding. As a nation, we have allowed ourselves to become hamstrung by the the legal system and numerous judicial bodies - national and international, which allow appeal after appeal.
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Post by staffordshrew on Mar 30, 2023 20:46:12 GMT 1
Stop the strean for too long and you can kiss goodbye to retirement. As we have experienced over the years, economic migrants want to work, hard, and, you know, make money. The points you make regarding the Border Force, Home Office and Police have got absolutely nothing the do with funding. As a nation, we have allowed ourselves to become hamstrung by the the legal system and numerous judicial bodies - national and international, which allow appeal after appeal. That's in reply to frankwellshrew I assume?
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Post by Pilch on Mar 30, 2023 20:58:12 GMT 1
that's what all the tories bashers will say on here to when i point out nothing being done 😝 So you’ve already made your mind up what’s going to happen but don’t seem to comment on what’s actually happening now (or not happening). I think its because of the mess the previous government left them in ;-)
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Post by neilsalop on Mar 31, 2023 15:35:45 GMT 1
Me and the missus went up to Llandudno yesterday and apparently one of the biggest hotels there is chock full of asylum seekers. This is an issue in seaside towns the length and breadth of the country, but now instead of those hotels being 3 parts full for two or three months of the year with tourists who bring money into the local economies they are now completely full of asylum seekers every month and are having the bill picked up by the UK taxpayer.
People in normal times would use that hotel, spend in the local economy, go on day trips, but the companies supplying those hotels with food, laundry services, etc aren't going survive. The day trip operators are going to struggle, the coffee shops, arcades and souvenir shops are going to go out of business and that lovely seaside town is going to wither and die and that hotel that has been newly fully refurbished, effectively on our dollar is going to struggle to get even half full, because the town it one served has nothing else to offer apart from one nicely refurbed hotel.
Much like the Lion in town, many of these hotels need major work to bring them up to 21st century standards and accepting all the asylum seekers that they fit at a good price with the government picking up the tab is a great way of getting money in the bank for a couple of years with negligible staffing costs. Once the asylum seekers move on they will no doubt be having major work done in the quite season, ready for a grand re-opening in time for the summer/wedding/Christmas season.
We as a country have always accepted those fleeing war and oppression and so we should. Personally I can't believe that there are 10s of thousands of people in Albania that are being oppressed to such a degree that they are being forced to flee their homes. IMO anyone from Albania should be placed into a secure holding site for one week while their application is processed using a fast tracked system. If they are successful they should be allowed to live and work in the UK on a temporary work visa for up to 5 years, after which they can apply for residency. Any that fail should be moved to an even more secure site, preferably on a working military base where their one and only appeal would be heard. If successful, same rules, 5 years work visa, etc. If the appeal fails however they should immediately face deportation back to Albania. Fingerprints, photographs, DNA records should show up as a fail and any subsequent attempts would result in immediate repatriation with no recourse to any applications or appeals. This would IMO cut the amount of people coming here as economic migrants from Albania, as the costs involved vs the chances of success would be prohibitive.
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Post by Pilch on Mar 31, 2023 17:02:23 GMT 1
Me and the missus went up to Llandudno yesterday and apparently one of the biggest hotels there is chock full of asylum seekers. This is an issue in seaside towns the length and breadth of the country, but now instead of those hotels being 3 parts full for two or three months of the year with tourists who bring money into the local economies they are now completely full of asylum seekers every month and are having the bill picked up by the UK taxpayer.
People in normal times would use that hotel, spend in the local economy, go on day trips, but the companies supplying those hotels with food, laundry services, etc aren't going survive. The day trip operators are going to struggle, the coffee shops, arcades and souvenir shops are going to go out of business and that lovely seaside town is going to wither and die and that hotel that has been newly fully refurbished, effectively on our dollar is going to struggle to get even half full, because the town it one served has nothing else to offer apart from one nicely refurbed hotel.
Much like the Lion in town, many of these hotels need major work to bring them up to 21st century standards and accepting all the asylum seekers that they fit at a good price with the government picking up the tab is a great way of getting money in the bank for a couple of years with negligible staffing costs. Once the asylum seekers move on they will no doubt be having major work done in the quite season, ready for a grand re-opening in time for the summer/wedding/Christmas season.
We as a country have always accepted those fleeing war and oppression and so we should. Personally I can't believe that there are 10s of thousands of people in Albania that are being oppressed to such a degree that they are being forced to flee their homes. IMO anyone from Albania should be placed into a secure holding site for one week while their application is processed using a fast tracked system. If they are successful they should be allowed to live and work in the UK on a temporary work visa for up to 5 years, after which they can apply for residency. Any that fail should be moved to an even more secure site, preferably on a working military base where their one and only appeal would be heard. If successful, same rules, 5 years work visa, etc. If the appeal fails however they should immediately face deportation back to Albania. Fingerprints, photographs, DNA records should show up as a fail and any subsequent attempts would result in immediate repatriation with no recourse to any applications or appeals. This would IMO cut the amount of people coming here as economic migrants from Albania, as the costs involved vs the chances of success would be prohibitive.
if they are here claiming asylum due to fear of persecution for their political opinions, then god only knows how they felt when you rolled into town
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Post by mattmw on Mar 31, 2023 17:35:51 GMT 1
Me and the missus went up to Llandudno yesterday and apparently one of the biggest hotels there is chock full of asylum seekers. This is an issue in seaside towns the length and breadth of the country, but now instead of those hotels being 3 parts full for two or three months of the year with tourists who bring money into the local economies they are now completely full of asylum seekers every month and are having the bill picked up by the UK taxpayer.
People in normal times would use that hotel, spend in the local economy, go on day trips, but the companies supplying those hotels with food, laundry services, etc aren't going survive. The day trip operators are going to struggle, the coffee shops, arcades and souvenir shops are going to go out of business and that lovely seaside town is going to wither and die and that hotel that has been newly fully refurbished, effectively on our dollar is going to struggle to get even half full, because the town it one served has nothing else to offer apart from one nicely refurbed hotel.
Much like the Lion in town, many of these hotels need major work to bring them up to 21st century standards and accepting all the asylum seekers that they fit at a good price with the government picking up the tab is a great way of getting money in the bank for a couple of years with negligible staffing costs. Once the asylum seekers move on they will no doubt be having major work done in the quite season, ready for a grand re-opening in time for the summer/wedding/Christmas season.
We as a country have always accepted those fleeing war and oppression and so we should. Personally I can't believe that there are 10s of thousands of people in Albania that are being oppressed to such a degree that they are being forced to flee their homes. IMO anyone from Albania should be placed into a secure holding site for one week while their application is processed using a fast tracked system. If they are successful they should be allowed to live and work in the UK on a temporary work visa for up to 5 years, after which they can apply for residency. Any that fail should be moved to an even more secure site, preferably on a working military base where their one and only appeal would be heard. If successful, same rules, 5 years work visa, etc. If the appeal fails however they should immediately face deportation back to Albania. Fingerprints, photographs, DNA records should show up as a fail and any subsequent attempts would result in immediate repatriation with no recourse to any applications or appeals. This would IMO cut the amount of people coming here as economic migrants from Albania, as the costs involved vs the chances of success would be prohibitive.
I was a bit puzzled as to why Albania seems to have been such a hot spot for people coming to the UK and Europe - as you say its not in a war zone, or subject to major political upheaval as some other countries are. However this article suggests human trafficing and modern slavery maybe one of the causes, with Albania being a staging country from other parts of the world into Europe. Albania maybe the country people are coming from, but they aren't necessarily Albanian. Usual health warning that the report is one of a charity working with refugees. miclu.org/blog/fact-check-albanian-boat-arrivalsIf the details in the report are correct then part of the solution will need to focus on the criminal gangs involved in the modern slavery networks, as much as our own internal processing system - which itself isn't even processing claims at the moment nevermind moving to the deportation stage. Just as an aside on the hotels issue, the government and local councils also spend a massive amount each year housing uk residents in hotel accomodation as suitable housing for them isn't available, many hotels accomodate short term homeless people as well. I think I said on another thread I suspect there is a interesting study to be made on who owns hotels with this function and how much money they receive in public funds. Potentially echos with the PPE issue during covid - there seem to be some new companies moving into the hotel business getting lucrative contracts, despite not having much experience in the field
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Post by staffordshrew on May 1, 2024 10:04:34 GMT 1
Some questions, may not be the time as the poor guy has lost his daughter, crushed in a migrant boat, but: The family wanted to get into a migrant boat to Britain because Sweden had decided he should be deported back to Iraq. Sweden is a nice civilised place, if they decided he should be deported back to Iraq then why can't that decision follow him around, so that wherever he tried to go to avoid deportation, he would be deported in line with that decision? When the Rwanda policy is fully working it is supposed to reduce small boat crossings, but surely to someone desperate to avoid deportation to a country they wouldn't feel they were going to be safe in then an expenses paid new life in Rwanda is a good option? Won't the Rwanda policy increase small boat crossings of those in that situation?
Many of those that do come over in small boats are disappearing into the community. Why, until the flight to Rwanda happens, are they not given meaningful work to do? Given the chance to work, we might decide that some could stay?
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