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Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 18, 2023 16:52:03 GMT 1
I think a key driver of the use of pyro is what fans see as the sanitisation (gentrification?) of the spectator side of the sport. For that reason, "official" pyro displays are a non starter and miss the point entirely. I do think authorities could meet fans halfway though through things like; - increased work on more widespread safe standing/terracing (whilst recognising most town fans were housed in terracing on Saturday) - more liberal approach to fan groups, more autonomy for fans in how certain areas of grounds are run - looking at repealing alcohol in sight of the pitch rules - support/subsidies from TV deals or the prem clubs etc for cheaper tickets. Subsidised travel even? Throw some of those on the table and you might have some chips to bargain with in a conversation about discouraging fans from using pyro (and possibly on things like cocaine, which I believe is thought to be behind the increase in ****wittery at grounds recently. How much of that is down to the fact it's easy for fans to "top up their buzz" covertly with a quick bump in the stand and could you avoid that by just letting people carry a plastic cup of beer into the stand?) Until we start to have those conversations though, things like pyro will continue to be a small but visible way for fans to thumb their nose at the way the game is being run and yes, I don't doubt somebody will get hurt eventually (despite the overall benign intentions of the vast majority of people taking pyro into grounds). The UK in general has a real habit of sticking its fingers in its ears and shouting "lalala" when faced with the facts that "the rules" aren't actually preventing thongs from happening. Time to change the approach. when you say meet halfway, it sounds more like the unrealistic demands a hijacker makes , maybe they could just send you a pizza ;-) I don't think any of these are particularly unrealistic to be honest. Safe standing is a wildly popular idea. Fan group areas work well on the continent at separating livelier fans from others. Alcohol in sight of the pitch rules currently are idiotic and arguably cause more problems than they solve. The Prem already makes solidarity payments, no reason it can't ring-fence some of that to support cheaper tickets. The real question is whether football actually wants to preserve its roots or whether it would prefer to shift "the problem" to watching the games in the pubs and at home. Amazes me that people can't seem to see how places like Germany manage to get it so right and question why we can't do that here
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Post by Pilch on Jan 18, 2023 17:24:12 GMT 1
when you say meet halfway, it sounds more like the unrealistic demands a hijacker makes , maybe they could just send you a pizza ;-) I don't think any of these are particularly unrealistic to be honest. Safe standing is a wildly popular idea. Fan group areas work well on the continent at separating livelier fans from others. Alcohol in sight of the pitch rules currently are idiotic and arguably cause more problems than they solve. The Prem already makes solidarity payments, no reason it can't ring-fence some of that to support cheaper tickets. The real question is whether football actually wants to preserve its roots or whether it would prefer to shift "the problem" to watching the games in the pubs and at home. Amazes me that people can't seem to see how places like Germany manage to get it so right and question why we can't do that here as much as I would also enjoy the game with a pint in my hand, there would be several who cant handle that and would spoil it for everyone, some of them would not even hurt a fly but would still spoil it for themselves and those around them
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 18, 2023 17:33:13 GMT 1
I don't think any of these are particularly unrealistic to be honest. Safe standing is a wildly popular idea. Fan group areas work well on the continent at separating livelier fans from others. Alcohol in sight of the pitch rules currently are idiotic and arguably cause more problems than they solve. The Prem already makes solidarity payments, no reason it can't ring-fence some of that to support cheaper tickets. The real question is whether football actually wants to preserve its roots or whether it would prefer to shift "the problem" to watching the games in the pubs and at home. Amazes me that people can't seem to see how places like Germany manage to get it so right and question why we can't do that here as much as I would also enjoy the game with a pint in my hand, there would be several who cant handle that and would spoil it for everyone, some of them would not even hurt a fly but would still spoil it for themselves and those around them How would they "spoil it for everyone" though? I'd argue that we already have a significant portion of fans attending drunk now as well as using drugs by all accounts. How do the current rules make any difference at all? It's just an irritant for the majority that doesn't even achieve its aim of controlling the behaviour of the minority.
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Post by Pilch on Jan 18, 2023 17:35:33 GMT 1
as much as I would also enjoy the game with a pint in my hand, there would be several who cant handle that and would spoil it for everyone, some of them would not even hurt a fly but would still spoil it for themselves and those around them How would they "spoil it for everyone" though? I'd argue that we already have a significant portion of fans attending drunk now as well as using drugs by all accounts. How do the current rules make any difference at all? It's just an irritant for the majority that doesn't even achieve its aim of controlling the behaviour of the minority. because they would show off and drink too much yes some already occasionally do there are threads about them usually
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 18, 2023 17:47:06 GMT 1
How would they "spoil it for everyone" though? I'd argue that we already have a significant portion of fans attending drunk now as well as using drugs by all accounts. How do the current rules make any difference at all? It's just an irritant for the majority that doesn't even achieve its aim of controlling the behaviour of the minority. because they would show off and drink too much yes some already occasionally do there are threads about them usually But we already have mechanisms in place for dealing with that? If somebody's too drunk and acting up, why do we penalise everyone else instead of targeting the problem? I think most on this forum will be aware of who you're alluding to. Feels like a problem that could also be solved if we were more proactive about creating areas of the ground for people with higher or lower tolerances for certain behaviour (like they do in basically every other country in Europe)
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Post by davycrockett on Jan 18, 2023 17:58:32 GMT 1
as much as I would also enjoy the game with a pint in my hand, there would be several who cant handle that and would spoil it for everyone, some of them would not even hurt a fly but would still spoil it for themselves and those around them How would they "spoil it for everyone" though? I'd argue that we already have a significant portion of fans attending drunk now as well as using drugs by all accounts. How do the current rules make any difference at all? It's just an irritant for the majority that doesn't even achieve its aim of controlling the behaviour of the minority. Ever bee under the stands at a busy away match and we score? Immediately pints thrown in the air, why wouldn’t that happen is say block 19? Someone gets covered in beer then all hell let’s loose…most would drink quietly and enjoy the game a few would….. This thread shows that many are happy (and proud) breaking the law so think that’s what Pilch means by spoiling it for others. Exactly this happened at Rotherham last season and the guy who got soaked got thrown out for having a go at the yob who soaked him.
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Post by ProudSalopian on Jan 18, 2023 18:11:21 GMT 1
as much as I would also enjoy the game with a pint in my hand, there would be several who cant handle that and would spoil it for everyone, some of them would not even hurt a fly but would still spoil it for themselves and those around them How would they "spoil it for everyone" though? I'd argue that we already have a significant portion of fans attending drunk now as well as using drugs by all accounts. How do the current rules make any difference at all? It's just an irritant for the majority that doesn't even achieve its aim of controlling the behaviour of the minority. Yeah it's a good point. We hear a lot about the behaviour of some fans nowadays and I must admit there is a youtube/lad bible culture of trying to be outrageous (particularly in the concourses) so the alcohol ban doesn't really achieve much, other than inconveniencing the majority who want to to have a social drink in the stands and be treated like the rest of society. For away games, there are people who are drinking at ridiculous times in the morning (and I include myself in that) so if people have been drinking since 7 in the morning, I fail to see why stopping them from drinking in sight of a football pitch is going to have much of an impact on their state of mind & behaviour. Besides, all the current rules do is encourage people to down drinks quickly pre kick off and at half time which is hardly a good thing. Going back to pyro, you are spot on in that this comes back to some football fans in this country being fed up with the sterile nature of the game and being jealous of what they see, not just across Europe but all over the world. Some people will ask why do you need pyro to make an atmosphere, the same goes for flags, balloons, tifo's, etc. Of course I understand they aren't going to cause people to start coughing & spluttering, I'm just trying to explain why they are popular. And what I always find entertaining is the authorities are so keen to condemn them, yet the media love a good shot of a player celebrating a goal with a pyro near them
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 18, 2023 19:03:10 GMT 1
How would they "spoil it for everyone" though? I'd argue that we already have a significant portion of fans attending drunk now as well as using drugs by all accounts. How do the current rules make any difference at all? It's just an irritant for the majority that doesn't even achieve its aim of controlling the behaviour of the minority. Ever bee under the stands at a busy away match and we score? Immediately pints thrown in the air, why wouldn’t that happen is say block 19? Someone gets covered in beer then all hell let’s loose…most would drink quietly and enjoy the game a few would….. This thread shows that many are happy (and proud) breaking the law so think that’s what Pilch means by spoiling it for others. Exactly this happened at Rotherham last season and the guy who got soaked got thrown out for having a go at the yob who soaked him. It probably is going to happen in block 19 etc but one of two things will happen; 1. It becomes an accepted part of the culture in that area and people can avoid it 2. (More likely) it happens in week 1, there's a row, somebody gets a whack over it and things gave settled down by week 3. It's not a strong argument against it (otherwise there'd be no football shown in pubs, for instance).
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Post by Pilch on Jan 18, 2023 19:08:54 GMT 1
How would they "spoil it for everyone" though? I'd argue that we already have a significant portion of fans attending drunk now as well as using drugs by all accounts. How do the current rules make any difference at all? It's just an irritant for the majority that doesn't even achieve its aim of controlling the behaviour of the minority. Yeah it's a good point. We hear a lot about the behaviour of some fans nowadays and I must admit there is a youtube/lad bible culture of trying to be outrageous (particularly in the concourses) so the alcohol ban doesn't really achieve much, other than inconveniencing the majority who want to to have a social drink in the stands and be treated like the rest of society. For away games, there are people who are drinking at ridiculous times in the morning (and I include myself in that) so if people have been drinking since 7 in the morning, I fail to see why stopping them from drinking in sight of a football pitch is going to have much of an impact on their state of mind & behaviour. Besides, all the current rules do is encourage people to down drinks quickly pre kick off and at half time which is hardly a good thing. Going back to pyro, you are spot on in that this comes back to some football fans in this country being fed up with the sterile nature of the game and being jealous of what they see, not just across Europe but all over the world. Some people will ask why do you need pyro to make an atmosphere, the same goes for flags, balloons, tifo's, etc. Of course I understand they aren't going to cause people to start coughing & spluttering, I'm just trying to explain why they are popular. And what I always find entertaining is the authorities are so keen to condemn them, yet the media love a good shot of a player celebrating a goal with a pyro near them drinking in sight of the pitch would lead to several things for certain more trouble more costs in policing and stewarding more early kick offs its a no for me
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 18, 2023 19:17:21 GMT 1
Yeah it's a good point. We hear a lot about the behaviour of some fans nowadays and I must admit there is a youtube/lad bible culture of trying to be outrageous (particularly in the concourses) so the alcohol ban doesn't really achieve much, other than inconveniencing the majority who want to to have a social drink in the stands and be treated like the rest of society. For away games, there are people who are drinking at ridiculous times in the morning (and I include myself in that) so if people have been drinking since 7 in the morning, I fail to see why stopping them from drinking in sight of a football pitch is going to have much of an impact on their state of mind & behaviour. Besides, all the current rules do is encourage people to down drinks quickly pre kick off and at half time which is hardly a good thing. Going back to pyro, you are spot on in that this comes back to some football fans in this country being fed up with the sterile nature of the game and being jealous of what they see, not just across Europe but all over the world. Some people will ask why do you need pyro to make an atmosphere, the same goes for flags, balloons, tifo's, etc. Of course I understand they aren't going to cause people to start coughing & spluttering, I'm just trying to explain why they are popular. And what I always find entertaining is the authorities are so keen to condemn them, yet the media love a good shot of a player celebrating a goal with a pyro near them drinking in sight of the pitch would lead to several things for certain more trouble more costs in policing and stewarding more early kick offs its a no for me How would it lead to more trouble? People can already arrive drunk, keep drinking and use drugs seemingly with impunity if they want to. How does allowing people to take a beer to their seat make that worse? It's this kind of inability to look beyond accepted "common sense" attitudes that's holding us back in this country?
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Post by Pilch on Jan 18, 2023 19:43:14 GMT 1
drinking in sight of the pitch would lead to several things for certain more trouble more costs in policing and stewarding more early kick offs its a no for me How would it lead to more trouble? People can already arrive drunk, keep drinking and use drugs seemingly with impunity if they want to. How does allowing people to take a beer to their seat make that worse? It's this kind of inability to look beyond accepted "common sense" attitudes that's holding us back in this country? sounds like you are preparing for the Vietnam war not a game of footy
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Post by ProudSalopian on Jan 19, 2023 13:47:06 GMT 1
drinking in sight of the pitch would lead to several things for certain more trouble more costs in policing and stewarding more early kick offs its a no for me It could lead to those but it's not a certainty. Alcohol was banned in grounds in this country 40 years ago, yes there is still an 'element' but society and football fans have changed a hell of lot since the 80's and therefore the decision should be reviewed. If there are studies/trials and they determine that it would lead to what you've suggested then fair enough, let's leave it as is. But to dismiss something because of the risk of something happening because of the actions of a minority, well if we lived by that logic then we would never see anything change in society.
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Post by Bob Rickerton on Jan 19, 2023 16:19:13 GMT 1
It's not in and of itself a reason to bring it back, but drinking being legalised in the stands could also bring in much needed income for clubs at our level. Part of the reason there's been trials and debates about removing the ban at lower levels is because there's clubs for which promotion would hit them financially due to not being able to sell alcohol. There's more money from ticket sales, competition money and TV at our level so it's not a direct equivalent, but over the course of a season the increased revenue from an extra 90 minutes of bar sales each game would be a decent chunk.
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Post by ProudSalopian on Jan 19, 2023 22:52:33 GMT 1
I saw this and thought it was relevant to us considering this thread and of course the fact we have safe standing. When you have a man in charge of policing football in this country having such views then its no wonder we have some outdated rules in place.
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Jan 19, 2023 22:53:53 GMT 1
I saw this and thought it was relevant to us considering this thread and of course the fact we have safe standing. When you have a man in charge of policing football in this country having such views then its no wonder we have some outdated rules in place. Shockingly outdated views. Any relation to Margaret Thatcher ??
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Post by Pilch on Jan 19, 2023 22:58:21 GMT 1
I saw this and thought it was relevant to us considering this thread and of course the fact we have safe standing. When you have a man in charge of policing football in this country having such views then its no wonder we have some outdated rules in place. if I was our chairman the whole south stand would be safe standing, the whole away end would be safe standing block 19 would be the family stand block 1 would hopefully still be just boring people like myself I might even have a better view re drinking inside the gorund watching the game, but when the opposing fans are within throwing distance of each other then medieval problems need modern day policing
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Post by Dancin on Mar 12, 2024 13:43:56 GMT 1
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Post by martinshrew on Mar 12, 2024 14:06:18 GMT 1
🥱🥱🥱🥱
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Post by gtismygod on Mar 12, 2024 15:07:54 GMT 1
Unlikely. Both smoke bombs were set off in the midst of goal celebrations, there were no cameras in the away end, and there was no allocated seating. Time for the police to stop wasting public funds ‘investigating’ smoke bombs at football matches.
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Post by staffordshrew on Mar 12, 2024 15:22:34 GMT 1
Perhaps the best way to stop the police "wasting public funds" investigating smoke bombs at football matches would be for a tiny minority of rule breakers to stop breaking the rules.
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Post by martinshrew on Mar 12, 2024 15:41:36 GMT 1
Wish our fans were more like those abroad:
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Mar 12, 2024 16:42:55 GMT 1
I’m glad this is being addressed. I feared for my life on Saturday.
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Post by secretshrew on Mar 12, 2024 16:48:01 GMT 1
The only way to prevent them is through randomly searching people. I have no idea how big these things are but assume they’re not small!
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Post by davycrockett on Mar 12, 2024 17:18:11 GMT 1
Wish our fans were more like those abroad: Me to. The problem is some carrying smoke bombs only have half a brain so they can hardly make them legal for sensible fans only Port Vale A mother and her son had the coats damaged at Port Vale because the perpetrators dropped it behind her seat. The Medow The last one let off in the South Stand was under the stands as everyone was leaving.
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Post by belfastshrew on Mar 12, 2024 17:31:51 GMT 1
The only way to prevent them is through randomly searching people. I have no idea how big these things are but assume they’re not small! I recall an away match where the police had sniffer dogs mingling with the away fans. I heard they were trained to smell pyrotechnics.
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Post by martinshrew on Mar 12, 2024 17:36:31 GMT 1
The only way to prevent them is through randomly searching people. I have no idea how big these things are but assume they’re not small! I recall an away match where the police had sniffer dogs mingling with the away fans. I heard they were trained to smell pyrotechnics. I think that was the game where about 4 went off, maybe the dogs were sniffing the burger wagon? 😂
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Post by martinshrew on Mar 12, 2024 17:38:19 GMT 1
Wish our fans were more like those abroad: Me to. The problem is some carrying smoke bombs only have half a brain so they can hardly make them legal for sensible fans only Port Vale A mother and her son had the coats damaged at Port Vale because the perpetrators dropped it behind her seat. The Medow The last one let off in the South Stand was under the stands as everyone was leaving. Isn't that the whole point? When you criminalise it, the first thing people are going to do is ping them far away from them if they can. I don't see why we have to have such boring and sterile fanbases whilst the rest of Europe enjoy pyro, bangers, smoke bombs and simply amazing atmospheres.
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Post by davycrockett on Mar 12, 2024 18:07:57 GMT 1
The only way to prevent them is through randomly searching people. I have no idea how big these things are but assume they’re not small! I recall an away match where the police had sniffer dogs mingling with the away fans. I heard they were trained to smell pyrotechnics. Yes that was at Derby I was ‘identified’ by the dog and searched (I’m 70) I explained it was because I’d got 3 b***hes but she was adamant they wouldn’t react to that. The same happened at Sunderland a couple of years ago 😂
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Post by Pilch on Mar 12, 2024 18:19:27 GMT 1
where's PhilRuge when you need him
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Post by tarporleyblue on Mar 12, 2024 18:26:32 GMT 1
It is what it is.
I'm old school, you can create a good atmosphere without them.
What concerns me though is that the club could face further sanctions, due to the selfishness of an individual supporter/supporters, that's not good to hear.
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