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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2019 16:03:03 GMT 1
Anyone turning out to vote today?
We've 5 candidates standing in our ward but we've had no leaflets from any of them! If they can't be bothered to engage with us then why should we bother with them?
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Post by northwestman on May 2, 2019 16:13:29 GMT 1
Not sure there are any local elections in Shropshire. No sign of any literature.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2019 16:18:07 GMT 1
Not sure there are any local elections in Shropshire. No sign of any literature. I'm over in West Cheshire. Seems to be most wards up for election although you wouldn't think so with the total lack of any literature 😕
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Post by stuttgartershrew on May 2, 2019 16:27:58 GMT 1
Not had that much time to keep up with things at the moment but could this be Williamson leaking the information because as defense secretary he believes handing over such work to Huawei would pose a risk? I think I'll hang on having a dig at Williamson, he might well be doing this in order to bring this to everyone's attention. What with Huawei being under the spotlight as they are. Whoever leaked it I'm happy they did so as you would think it does have some risk, good that someone has exposed the government for making the decision to go with them. What a shambles they are... It’s not Huawei doing the work that’s the point... Well I thought it was pretty clear from my post that for me it is. I don't think a government can do a great deal if someone has made the decision to leak information. They just have to manage it as best as they can (as they believe they now are having sacked this chap from his role). They can be however, blamed for the collected agreement to allow Huawei to provide such work. It certainly doesn't look good on the UK or on May to have made such a decision considering the recent news surrounding Huawei.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on May 2, 2019 16:37:11 GMT 1
Anyone turning out to vote today? We've 5 candidates standing in our ward but we've had no leaflets from any of them! If they can't be bothered to engage with us then why should we bother with them? At least 5 leaflets from the Labour candidate in my Trafford ward, plus a visit from her. Nothing from any of the other candidates. One of them is standing as an Independent, so it's odd that he doesn't publicise what he stands for.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on May 2, 2019 16:48:51 GMT 1
It’s not Huawei doing the work that’s the point, it’s that this is a top secret committee and nothing that happens there should be divulged. A leaker is a threat to national security and not to be trusted. A principled politician with concerns would resign his/her post and openly campaign on the matter. While I agree with you ST, that a foreign power has access to our 5G infrastructure should be a worry. My initial post on this was a a two pronged barb. One at the Government and one at the leak. The company I used to work for had a factory in China and I spent some time there as a member of a team sourcing suppliers and negotiating contracts locally. It quickly became clear that what appeared to be private businesses were actually controlled by the State, ie the Chinese Communist Party. Every site included a party official with director status whose job was to ensure that party policy was followed and workers/staff toed the party line. He was a spy for Beijing. We learned to be very careful what we said and who we said it to, mainly because we didn't want to get anyone into trouble. I cannot believe that our Government is not aware of this - then again we did have Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretaryso maybe our grasp of foreign affairs is not what it was.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2019 21:44:10 GMT 1
While I agree with you ST, that a foreign power has access to our 5G infrastructure should be a worry. My initial post on this was a a two pronged barb. One at the Government and one at the leak. The company I used to work for had a factory in China and I spent some time there as a member of a team sourcing suppliers and negotiating contracts locally. It quickly became clear that what appeared to be private businesses were actually controlled by the State, ie the Chinese Communist Party. Every site included a party official with director status whose job was to ensure that party policy was followed and workers/staff toed the party line. He was a spy for Beijing. We learned to be very careful what we said and who we said it to, mainly because we didn't want to get anyone into trouble. I cannot believe that our Government is not aware of this - then again we did have Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretaryso maybe our grasp of foreign affairs is not what it was. According to the leak, May was advised against this idea, but she carried on anyway. You have hit the nail on the head, the Chinese state has an interest in the company. Like I said, some folks would have us believe the leader of the opposition is a threat to national security.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on May 2, 2019 22:55:25 GMT 1
So now reported no crime committed as the discussions were not deemed sensitive enough to be covered by the official secrets act. And looking to how others are now reacting to the news, I doubt it would have been kept under wraps for long anyhow. Really not sure what they're up to here, really doesn't appear to be the best of decisions...
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Post by venceremos on May 3, 2019 1:48:23 GMT 1
There are rumours that Williamson “knows where the bodies are buried” and could be the catalyst that finally topples May - although she’s not likely to be around much longer anyway. The stated evidence against him does seem circumstantial though and Downing Street’s rush to close this down is suspicious.
Someone’s lying and, regardless of the subject matter this time, it can’t be left to individual ministers to decide what intelligence material can be leaked. It’s likely to compromise the source and the government has to be trusted by the intelligence agencies.
Whistleblowing can be in the public interest but it’s not for government to be doing it.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 9:24:36 GMT 1
The Tories very poor showing in the local council elections may well hasten Mrs May's departure.
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Post by northwestman on May 3, 2019 9:31:10 GMT 1
None of the 3 principles of Natural Justice have been adhered to here.
1. Right to a fair hearing. Apparently far more time was spent on questioning Williamson than any of the other suspects. 2. Absence of bias. Sedwill has conducted the investigation even though he too was present at the National Security Council Meeting in his role as National Security Adviser. Who has investigated him? 3. Reasons for the decision. Downing Street is refusing to give Williamson written details of the 'compelling evidence' against him that led to May making her decision.
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Post by salop27 on May 3, 2019 9:35:41 GMT 1
The Tories very poor showing in the local council elections may well hasten Mrs May's departure. I wish! The women is deluded.... Conservatives losses up to 440 councillors now. In such a scenario you'd expect the opposition party to have made big gains but labour have lost a fair few as well. A two finger salute to both parties.
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Post by davycrockett on May 3, 2019 9:44:00 GMT 1
It’s not Huawei doing the work that’s the point... Well I thought it was pretty clear from my post that for me it is. I don't think a government can do a great deal if someone has made the decision to leak information. They just have to manage it as best as they can (as they believe they now are having sacked this chap from his role). They can be however, blamed for the collected agreement to allow Huawei to provide such work. It certainly doesn't look good on the UK or on May to have made such a decision considering the recent news surrounding Huawei. When you say ‘recent news surrounding Huawei’ are you referring to the anti China hysteria of the Trump government or is there some factual news I’ve missed? sent from my Huawei Pro
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Post by ssshrew on May 3, 2019 10:00:43 GMT 1
For me, at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter who did what or said what the country, it’s main opposition and it’s ruling party are in a right mess. It’s all very depressing. Anyone who thinks the Lib Dems are the answer have short memories. Nick Clegg sold us down the Swanee by joining the Eton common room don’t forget. I for one will never forgive them for that.
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Post by northwestman on May 3, 2019 10:04:57 GMT 1
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Post by venceremos on May 3, 2019 10:25:49 GMT 1
For me, at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter who did what or said what the country, it’s main opposition and it’s ruling party are in a right mess. It’s all very depressing. Anyone who thinks the Lib Dems are the answer have short memories. Nick Clegg sold us down the Swanee by joining the Eton common room don’t forget. I for one will never forgive them for that. At least the Lib Dems spared us some of the worst Tory excesses during the coalition. Look how the Tories have run things alone since 2015 ...
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Post by ssshrew on May 3, 2019 10:40:32 GMT 1
Maybe but they may have collapsed earlier without the support they received.
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Post by martinshrew on May 3, 2019 11:20:52 GMT 1
The Tories very poor showing in the local council elections may well hasten Mrs May's departure. I wish! The women is deluded.... Conservatives losses up to 440 councillors now. In such a scenario you'd expect the opposition party to have made big gains but labour have lost a fair few as well. A two finger salute to both parties. And so it should be as well. Labour should be a country mile ahead in the polls which they're not, shows how detached from the working class vote they've become.
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Post by zenfootball2 on May 3, 2019 11:36:43 GMT 1
It’s not Huawei doing the work that’s the point... Well I thought it was pretty clear from my post that for me it is. I don't think a government can do a great deal if someone has made the decision to leak information. They just have to manage it as best as they can (as they believe they now are having sacked this chap from his role). They can be however, blamed for the collected agreement to allow Huawei to provide such work. It certainly doesn't look good on the UK or on May to have made such a decision considering the recent news surrounding Huawei. ignoring your own security service assessment and numerous other countries who have refused to use there system makes little sense. however this might be Mays attempt to suck up to the Chinese.
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Post by northwestman on May 3, 2019 11:38:53 GMT 1
The biggest beneficiary of Williamson's sacking has been Chris Grayling, whose most recent catastrophe was completely overshadowed and largely ignored by the media. In a nearly empty Commons chamber, Failing Grayling’s explanation for why he had wasted another £40m on ferry services that weren’t needed was that he could easily have wasted even more money. So far Grayling has cost the country £3 billion during his time in office. Williamson must be mortified not to have the confidence of the prime minister, when someone so transparently useless as Failing Grayling still does.
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Post by venceremos on May 3, 2019 11:40:28 GMT 1
Maybe but they may have collapsed earlier without the support they received. But then just imagine the chaos we'd have been in .....…… unpopular minority Tory government riven by internal divisions over Europe, committed to austerity at any cost, pandering to the far right, fostering a "hostile environment" ................... hang on …….....
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Post by zenfootball2 on May 3, 2019 11:41:24 GMT 1
The Tories very poor showing in the local council elections may well hasten Mrs May's departure. i was expecting a much bigger thrashing for the conservatives , rather surprised that Labour also lost some councillors as i thought they would pick up the slack, whilst the liberals have made gains .i wonder if people have just had enough of the two parties handling / mishandling of brexit and this is a protest vote?
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Post by zenfootball2 on May 3, 2019 11:43:13 GMT 1
The biggest beneficiary of Williamson's sacking has been Chris Grayling, whose most recent catastrophe was completely overshadowed and largely ignored by the media. In a nearly empty Commons chamber, Failing Grayling’s explanation for why he had wasted another £40m on ferry services that weren’t needed was that he could easily have wasted even more money. So far Grayling has cost the country £3 billion during his time in office. Williamson must be mortified not to have the confidence of the prime minister, when someone so transparently useless as Failing Grayling still does. i think anyone who awards a contract for ferries to a company that has no ships has reached a new level of incompetence.
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Post by shropshirelad42 on May 3, 2019 11:46:26 GMT 1
"This matter is now closed" says the Prime Minister !!!!! For whom ??
I don't know Mr Williamson, but surely if he is vehemently denying the accusation he is 100% entitled to prove that he is innocent of the claims against him ??
I live in a democratic country - I THINK !! - and just cannot abide injustice, if this be the case.
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Post by venceremos on May 3, 2019 11:58:58 GMT 1
"This matter is now closed" says the Prime Minister !!!!! For whom ?? I don't know Mr Williamson, but surely if he is vehemently denying the accusation he is 100% entitled to prove that he is innocent of the claims against him ?? I live in a democratic country - I THINK !! - and just cannot abide injustice, if this be the case. He's only been sacked though, not prosecuted, so it's not really got much to do with democracy, or any lack of it. It's closer to an unfair dismissal case. Legally, Williamson is innocent if he's not tried and convicted. But I take the fundamental point that the handling of this taints and discredits both Williamson and May. Would the matter have been dropped immediately if we were talking about a civil servant whistleblower? Somehow, I doubt it. There's something very wrong about this.
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Post by northwestman on May 3, 2019 12:02:54 GMT 1
"This matter is now closed" says the Prime Minister !!!!! For whom ?? I don't know Mr Williamson, but surely if he is vehemently denying the accusation he is 100% entitled to prove that he is innocent of the claims against him ?? I live in a democratic country - I THINK !! - and just cannot abide injustice, if this be the case. There are reports in the papers that Williamson is thinking of making a 'Geoffrey Howe' type speech to make 100% certain that May has to go. But this article suggests she doesn't care what he does, and is on track to do a deal with Corbyn. www.itv.com/news/2019-05-02/theresa-may-has-just-days-to-seal-her-brexit-destiny/
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Post by northwestman on May 3, 2019 12:04:14 GMT 1
"This matter is now closed" says the Prime Minister !!!!! For whom ?? I don't know Mr Williamson, but surely if he is vehemently denying the accusation he is 100% entitled to prove that he is innocent of the claims against him ?? I live in a democratic country - I THINK !! - and just cannot abide injustice, if this be the case. He's only been sacked though, not prosecuted, so it's not really got much to do with democracy, or any lack of it. It's closer to an unfair dismissal case. Legally, Williamson is innocent if he's not tried and convicted. But I take the fundamental point that the handling of this taints and discredits both Williamson and May. Would the matter have been dropped immediately if we were talking about a civil servant whistleblower? Somehow, I doubt it. There's something very wrong about this. Certainly wasn't in the cases of Sarah Tisdall and Clive Ponting.
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Post by northwestman on May 3, 2019 12:22:45 GMT 1
Apparently, where there is a local area where there was only a straight choice between a Conservative or a Labour Councillor, there are a very large number of spoilt ballot papers.
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Post by shropshirelad42 on May 3, 2019 12:52:11 GMT 1
Take your point, but I was using the term 'democratic country' loosely as my mind was imagining what would have happened had he been accused of doing this in say..... Russia or China !!
Even if he is legally innocent, as you state, I would think he would still want to emphatically clear his name primarily for the sake of his family, especially his children who may probably be open to all sorts of puerile diatribe about their dad from other children. Kids can be quite cruel sometimes. I don't know how old his children are but it will still hurt.
I know I wouldn't want my daughters to go through that sort of stuff, so if I was accused of doing something like this I would do 'everything' in my power to clear my name.
But if he did do it then everything that follows is down to his actions.
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Post by venceremos on May 3, 2019 12:52:31 GMT 1
"This matter is now closed" says the Prime Minister !!!!! For whom ?? I don't know Mr Williamson, but surely if he is vehemently denying the accusation he is 100% entitled to prove that he is innocent of the claims against him ?? I live in a democratic country - I THINK !! - and just cannot abide injustice, if this be the case. There are reports in the papers that Williamson is thinking of making a 'Geoffrey Howe' type speech to make 100% certain that May has to go. But this article suggests she doesn't care what he does, and is on track to do a deal with Corbyn. www.itv.com/news/2019-05-02/theresa-may-has-just-days-to-seal-her-brexit-destiny/Interesting piece by Peston. May as devil-may-care loose cannon - who'd have thought it? As frustrated as I am by Labour, I do appreciate their predicament. As yesterday's elections indicated, they'll alienate supporters whichever way they finally go on brexit, which is why their only sensible way through this seems to me for them to back a second referendum and leave it to the people to decide whether the brexit terms are acceptable.
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