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Post by lenny on Apr 21, 2019 9:12:27 GMT 1
Anybody listen to the podcast " drilled"? If not, I recommend it. Very good analysis if how big oil used PR to legitimise its activities. One of the most interesting observations (for me) is how one of their biggest wins was convincing people that it was down to them as individuals to make small lifestyle changes rather than expect a systemic change. Hence, we get people insisting on cycling everywhere, reducing consumption of certain foods etc. All p**sing in the wind of course; it's not that people don't care, it's that they have little agency. As somebody living in Shropshire, the earnings to house price ratio combined with the complete savaging of our public transport network and the low range of electric vehicles means I have no choice but to drive a " dirty" car, sometimes for up to hundreds of miles a week if I want to feed my family. Similarly, I have 2 children now; the comparatively smaller size of modern new builds means if I want to house my family in somewhere which will give us an acceptable quality of life but which I won't still be paying for by the time my kids are in their 30s, I have to go for a less efficient older property. The real issue here, of course, is austerity. We could be taking advantage of historic low interest rates and borrowing money to lend out at cost to people to insulate their homes, instal solar panels etc. Governmemt could be investing in or incentivising investment to give us a world class renewable energy sector. Both councils and central government could subsidise buses and trains to make them more affordable and make it profitable to run more and from/to more remote destinations. We could even be investing in the ePace and ensuring a more reasonably priced version with a better range becomes more widely available. We can do all of that stuff; the only thing that stops us is the misguided obsession with an arbitrary deficit which very few actually understand yet which is used as a justification for the current government's destructive policies. That's why I disagree that climate change is our generation's biggest crisis. For me, it's austerity. Everything else stems from that and that's why the most revolutionary act I csn commit is to vote against those policies, as I consistently have. This is why, in my view, it's pointless targetting others such as myself who have priorities which clash with climate concerns and little choice in the matter. If you really want to make a change donate, campaign or protest for an anti austerity party and chuck the Tories out at the next election. Everything will get a lot easier from there. It's easy and convenient to claim reducing your own meat consumption or carbon emissions is p**sing in the wind, but then so is anything and everything we do as individuals when it comes down to it. Most of us still choose what we believe to be the better course of action. Yes, crayfish, we're all virtue signallers, even you! If individuals do nothing, there's less pressure on government and business to do anything because doing something is always harder than doing nothing. What a prescription for humanity. We're all compromised, that's unavoidable. The moment someone has a child they're adding to environmental damage. Does that mean it's not our responsibility, that we should leave it to someone else to act? How can austerity be humanity's biggest crisis? How can voting against austerity make everything else "a lot easier"? Climate change affects everyone everywhere. Austerity doesn't. The idea that simply changing our government ends the problem is absurd. How would that reduce CO2 or methane emissions globally? We can do what we can as individuals, we can change/pressure our government to do more but the UK could have the greenest government following policies of private sufficiency/public luxury (as George Monbiot proposes) and it would still only be a tiny fraction of what's needed to avert potential global catastrophe. We have to do what we can but we have to encourage others to do likewise. When our priorities clash with "climate concerns", we have to change our priorities - or have them changed for us. Ultimately, there is nothing more important and if we waste even more time thinking we're being clever by blaming others as an excuse for doing nothing ourselves, then we're well and truly ****ed. That'll take some explaining to the kids. That's the key rebuttal to the argument that "oh we're only 1%". If we think like that we wouldn't do anything! No point voting. Why bother giving to charity? No need to cheer when Town score. Classic tragedy of the commons. Additionally, China is the country with the fastest growing solar sector and has some world leading renewable facilities. The issues stem from its weak starting point as a country with extremely high dependency on coal and growing demand for electricity. However, the fact that it is installing solar rapidly is due to the fact that wealthier, more technologically advanced countries have led the way, reduced the cost and improved the reliability of these renewable solutions. Global emissions reduction can be helped by a similar process to that by which the world came together to reduce and then reverse the damage to the ozone layer. As an example, there was an interesting proposal I saw not that long ago, I think in the FT (it never came within a million miles of government). The idea was essentially based on the fact that China is able to transport electricity across a massive solar network, so it should be entirely feasible to have a single network across Europe. By a conglomerate of richer northern countries investing in a solar network in the troubled Mediterranean economies, they could help provide fiscal stimulus and employment where desperately needed whilst also ensuring the financing countries received a perpetual inflow of income/clean energy (depending on whether or not those northern countries wished to sell or consume the generated energy) from a far more conducive environment to solar power. Somehow I can't imagine that working as a policy sponsored by Britain today...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2019 19:15:24 GMT 1
It's easy and convenient to claim reducing your own meat consumption or carbon emissions is p**sing in the wind, but then so is anything and everything we do as individuals when it comes down to it. Most of us still choose what we believe to be the better course of action. Yes, crayfish, we're all virtue signallers, even you! If individuals do nothing, there's less pressure on government and business to do anything because doing something is always harder than doing nothing. What a prescription for humanity. We're all compromised, that's unavoidable. The moment someone has a child they're adding to environmental damage. Does that mean it's not our responsibility, that we should leave it to someone else to act? How can austerity be humanity's biggest crisis? How can voting against austerity make everything else "a lot easier"? Climate change affects everyone everywhere. Austerity doesn't. The idea that simply changing our government ends the problem is absurd. How would that reduce CO2 or methane emissions globally? We can do what we can as individuals, we can change/pressure our government to do more but the UK could have the greenest government following policies of private sufficiency/public luxury (as George Monbiot proposes) and it would still only be a tiny fraction of what's needed to avert potential global catastrophe. We have to do what we can but we have to encourage others to do likewise. When our priorities clash with "climate concerns", we have to change our priorities - or have them changed for us. Ultimately, there is nothing more important and if we waste even more time thinking we're being clever by blaming others as an excuse for doing nothing ourselves, then we're well and truly ****ed. That'll take some explaining to the kids. That's the key rebuttal to the argument that "oh we're only 1%". If we think like that we wouldn't do anything! No point voting. Why bother giving to charity? No need to cheer when Town score. Classic tragedy of the commons. Additionally, China is the country with the fastest growing solar sector and has some world leading renewable facilities. The issues stem from its weak starting point as a country with extremely high dependency on coal and growing demand for electricity. However, the fact that it is installing solar rapidly is due to the fact that wealthier, more technologically advanced countries have led the way, reduced the cost and improved the reliability of these renewable solutions. Global emissions reduction can be helped by a similar process to that by which the world came together to reduce and then reverse the damage to the ozone layer. As an example, there was an interesting proposal I saw not that long ago, I think in the FT (it never came within a million miles of government). The idea was essentially based on the fact that China is able to transport electricity across a massive solar network, so it should be entirely feasible to have a single network across Europe. By a conglomerate of richer northern countries investing in a solar network in the troubled Mediterranean economies, they could help provide fiscal stimulus and employment where desperately needed whilst also ensuring the financing countries received a perpetual inflow of income/clean energy (depending on whether or not those northern countries wished to sell or consume the generated energy) from a far more conducive environment to solar power. Somehow I can't imagine that working as a policy sponsored by Britain today... Cracking post. But, as you point out, the northern European countries aren't interested, the UK included. And we know the reason. Anyway, what ER also highlights is the lack of funding and resources for the police and the soon to be overwhelmed criminal justice system. ER should be opening up the debate about the chronic underfunding in these areas, but people and the media are only interested in calling ER protesters 'middle-class' whatever.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 24, 2019 7:42:12 GMT 1
I see Theresa May was empty chaired at yesterdays speech by Greta Thunberg. When the leader of the country doesn't care how the hell are people supposed to get the right messasge? I know Trump doesn't believe in science, but surely May can't be as thick as he is?
There is a climate and polution emergency going on worldwide and we (and I include myself in that) are either being willfully ignorant or just don't care enough. There are millions of tons of plastic floating around our oceans, millions of tons being exported to places like Malaysia, Indonesia and Poland, some of the decent quality stuff does get recycled, but much of it is just dumped or burnt.
So what is the answer?
Corona have started using a non plastic six pack ring that breaks down in to organic material and will actually feed fish if dumped in the ocean. Will Budwieser start doing the same? Carling? Carlsberg? Coors? Guiness?
McDonalds are rolling out cardboard straws, but some people are already whining. Will this whining put off Burger King, etc.?
There are bottles made from seaweed that so far none of the big drink manufacturers have taken on board. Is there a reason for this? Price, availability, shelf life?
The only way things will ever change is if some people demand a change and keep being vocal and visible. Now I am probably as complacent as most other people and just assume that because I fill my recycling bin every fortnight I'm doing my bit, but if governments and corporations refuse to take steps how else am I or anyone else supposed to make a difference? The only way that corporations will change is if either governments force them to change or WE hit their bottom line. I can't see many governments standing up to Big Oil, the pharmacutical giants, the likes of Coke and PepsiCo or any of the other vested interests that fund them, so it's up to US to demand change or stop using these companies. Could you imagine if no-one bought a Coke product for a week? Stopped using Amazon? Took all the superfluous packaging off at the till in Asda or Tesco? How long do think it would take for them to get the message? Like I said governments aren't going to do this for us, so change has to be driven by us.
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Post by Minormorris64 on Apr 24, 2019 8:15:39 GMT 1
I see Theresa May was empty chaired at yesterdays speech by Greta Thunberg. When the leader of the country doesn't care how the hell are people supposed to get the right messasge? I know Trump doesn't believe in science, but surely May can't be as thick as he is?
There is a climate and polution emergency going on worldwide and we (and I include myself in that) are either being willfully ignorant or just don't care enough. There are millions of tons of plastic floating around our oceans, millions of tons being exported to places like Malaysia, Indonesia and Poland, some of the decent quality stuff does get recycled, but much of it is just dumped or burnt.
So what is the answer?
Corona have started using a non plastic six pack ring that breaks down in to organic material and will actually feed fish if dumped in the ocean. Will Budwieser start doing the same? Carling? Carlsberg? Coors? Guiness?
McDonalds are rolling out cardboard straws, but some people are already whining. Will this whining put off Burger King, etc.?
There are bottles made from seaweed that so far none of the big drink manufacturers have taken on board. Is there a reason for this? Price, availability, shelf life?
The only way things will ever change is if some people demand a change and keep being vocal and visible. Now I am probably as complacent as most other people and just assume that because I fill my recycling bin every fortnight I'm doing my bit, but if governments and corporations refuse to take steps how else am I or anyone else supposed to make a difference? The only way that corporations will change is if either governments force them to change or WE hit their bottom line. I can't see many governments standing up to Big Oil, the pharmacutical giants, the likes of Coke and PepsiCo or any of the other vested interests that fund them, so it's up to US to demand change or stop using these companies. Could you imagine if no-one bought a Coke product for a week? Stopped using Amazon? Took all the superfluous packaging off at the till in Asda or Tesco? How long do think it would take for them to get the message? Like I said governments aren't going to do this for us, so change has to be driven by us.
Keep up at the back please
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/14/end-plastic-rings-guinness-joins-carlsberg-getting-rid-packaging/
www.independent.co.uk/news/business/guinness-diageo-beer-plastic-free-packaging-a8869941.html
metro.co.uk/2019/04/15/guinness-remove-plastic-beer-packaging-9203296/
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47926399
news.sky.com/story/guinness-maker-diageo-to-remove-plastic-from-beer-packaging-11694545
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 24, 2019 8:46:42 GMT 1
I see Theresa May was empty chaired at yesterdays speech by Greta Thunberg. When the leader of the country doesn't care how the hell are people supposed to get the right messasge? I know Trump doesn't believe in science, but surely May can't be as thick as he is?
There is a climate and polution emergency going on worldwide and we (and I include myself in that) are either being willfully ignorant or just don't care enough. There are millions of tons of plastic floating around our oceans, millions of tons being exported to places like Malaysia, Indonesia and Poland, some of the decent quality stuff does get recycled, but much of it is just dumped or burnt.
So what is the answer?
Corona have started using a non plastic six pack ring that breaks down in to organic material and will actually feed fish if dumped in the ocean. Will Budwieser start doing the same? Carling? Carlsberg? Coors? Guiness?
McDonalds are rolling out cardboard straws, but some people are already whining. Will this whining put off Burger King, etc.?
There are bottles made from seaweed that so far none of the big drink manufacturers have taken on board. Is there a reason for this? Price, availability, shelf life?
The only way things will ever change is if some people demand a change and keep being vocal and visible. Now I am probably as complacent as most other people and just assume that because I fill my recycling bin every fortnight I'm doing my bit, but if governments and corporations refuse to take steps how else am I or anyone else supposed to make a difference? The only way that corporations will change is if either governments force them to change or WE hit their bottom line. I can't see many governments standing up to Big Oil, the pharmacutical giants, the likes of Coke and PepsiCo or any of the other vested interests that fund them, so it's up to US to demand change or stop using these companies. Could you imagine if no-one bought a Coke product for a week? Stopped using Amazon? Took all the superfluous packaging off at the till in Asda or Tesco? How long do think it would take for them to get the message? Like I said governments aren't going to do this for us, so change has to be driven by us.
Keep up at the back please
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/14/end-plastic-rings-guinness-joins-carlsberg-getting-rid-packaging/
www.independent.co.uk/news/business/guinness-diageo-beer-plastic-free-packaging-a8869941.html
metro.co.uk/2019/04/15/guinness-remove-plastic-beer-packaging-9203296/
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47926399
news.sky.com/story/guinness-maker-diageo-to-remove-plastic-from-beer-packaging-11694545
So when can we expect them to start then? Certainly looks like plastic to me.
''non plastic six pack ring that breaks down in to organic material and will actually feed fish if dumped in the ocean''. Does the new (sometime) Guiness cardboard packaging break down in the same way or is it just easier to recycle. Fair play to them for making some effort, but they could still go further.
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Post by davycrockett on Apr 24, 2019 9:02:42 GMT 1
So when can we expect them to start then? Certainly looks like plastic to me.
If you read the article you’d find out The new packaging - part of a 18.5 million euro (£16m) investment to reduce the amount of plastic that Diageo uses - will be first used at a bottling and packaging plant in Belfast and appear on shelves in Ireland from August. It will arrive in the UK and other markets, including the US, Canada, South Korea and Europe, next year.
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 24, 2019 9:09:56 GMT 1
So when can we expect them to start then? Certainly looks like plastic to me.
If you read the article you’d find out The new packaging - part of a 18.5 million euro (£16m) investment to reduce the amount of plastic that Diageo uses - will be first used at a bottling and packaging plant in Belfast and appear on shelves in Ireland from August. It will arrive in the UK and other markets, including the US, Canada, South Korea and Europe, next year. Fair enough, I'll stand corrected to some point on Guiness, but haven't some companies being using this type of cardboard packaging for years? Do you think that Guiness would have made investment if not for pressure from customers and seeing others doing the same thing first? Will all drinks manufacturers follow suit or will we still have things like this in 10 years time?
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Post by Minormorris64 on Apr 24, 2019 9:16:38 GMT 1
If you read the article you’d find out The new packaging - part of a 18.5 million euro (£16m) investment to reduce the amount of plastic that Diageo uses - will be first used at a bottling and packaging plant in Belfast and appear on shelves in Ireland from August. It will arrive in the UK and other markets, including the US, Canada, South Korea and Europe, next year. Fair enough, I'll stand corrected to some point on Guiness, but haven't some companies being using this type of cardboard packaging for years? Do you think that Guiness would have made investment if not for pressure from customers and seeing others doing the same thing first? Will all drinks manufacturers follow suit or will we still have things like this in 10 years time?
Never touch that C*****g rubbish in a month of Sundays !!
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