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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 14:03:55 GMT 1
The more I read of this protest the more impressed I am by the people involved and the method of their approach. It is a crucial subject that is totally underrated by every government in the world.
There is no prejudice, no violence, no aggression. Yes there is some disruption but as the posters in this thread have noted this is, in reality, pretty small.
The quote that sums the protest up for me is this from the chairman of the Met Police Federation talking about the difficulty the police are facing:
βThey are dealing with very, very passive people, probably quite nice people, who don't want confrontation whatsoever with the police or anyone else but are breaking the law."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 15:11:52 GMT 1
Not half term..... all bloody skivin then.... cos non are at school due to some religious holiday we are about to start.... It's not 'some' religious holiday as you put it. For people like me it is an important time in our Christian calendar. Well done on your religious holiday
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 15:47:53 GMT 1
It's not 'some' religious holiday as you put it. For people like me it is an important time in our Christian calendar. Well done on your religious holiday Good to see you joining in the spirit of our christian values Mr Downward π
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 15:48:32 GMT 1
If a bunch of football fans stood in the middle of Waterloo Bridge they'd have no reason to be there, would they? Still wouldn't be subject to water cannon though - they're not legal (remember one of Boris' money wasting schemes to buy old ones?). Air pollution causes thousands of premature deaths in the UK alone every year but a bit of temporary traffic disruption is more important? What a strange sense of priorities. Climate change is the most important matter of our lifetimes, bar none. If we can't tolerate a little disruption from people trying to chivvy governments and corporations into taking long term views instead of pursuing short term gains then we deserve what we get. Except we won't be the ones really suffering, it'll be the youngest generations and those yet unborn. Forget brexit, forget terrorism - none of that will count for anything if we don't act now at least to slow the damage we're doing. Power to Extinction Rebellion! The huge problem with your argument is this. Firstly Britain produces only slightly more than 1% of global carbon dioxide emissions. So if we did not produce any at all it would make hardly any difference to climate change. The main problem is the industrialion of India and Africa and the enormous population growth in the Middle East and Africa that is what is causing the problems not Britain or Europe. Secondly Britain is already a world leader in reducing in reducing carbon emissions we have the largest off shore wind industry in the world an ever increasing number of solar energy farms and very high standards of home insulation. In fact we produce 44% less carbon than in 1990 and it is going down all the time. All this despite massively increasing the population in the last two decades. The protesters are just virtue signalling middle class prats hypocrites too as most of them drive cars and take foreign holidays. If they were protesting outside the Chinese embassy I would have a bit more respect for them. It's not just about carbon emissions though is it. Waste management is patchy in the UK at best, and has increased emissions by 1% along with agriculture also increased by 1% in 2017. So, it's also about dwindling resources and educating people about fly-tipping for example. It's also about lifestyle changes. How many people car share on here for example. It's also about preventing deaths like this. www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44612642
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Post by davycrockett on Apr 19, 2019 16:01:40 GMT 1
Not half term..... all bloody skivin then.... cos non are at school due to some religious holiday we are about to start.... It's not 'some' religious holiday as you put it. For people like me it is an important time in our Christian calendar. And for many more it's not so people can do as they wish without concern over religion π
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 17:34:09 GMT 1
It's not 'some' religious holiday as you put it. For people like me it is an important time in our Christian calendar. Well done on your religious holiday Why well done? Do you have a problem in people celebrating Easter?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 17:36:11 GMT 1
It's not 'some' religious holiday as you put it. For people like me it is an important time in our Christian calendar. And for many more it's not so people can do as they wish without concern over religion π Fair enough. We celebrate or don't as the case may be. Each to his/her own.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Apr 19, 2019 18:50:15 GMT 1
My daughter was at Marble Arch and Oxford Circus today. Her lecturer at Bristol university, Colin Davis, was arrested yesterday. I'm contributing a monthly amount to support what they are doing.
Ellie is very much aware that she is much less likely to live to my age (54) or her late grandparents' age (86). There is a real possibility that it is already too late. The IPCC predictions for the melting of Arctic Sea ice have consistently under-estimated the pace of change. It is not just the obvious warming that is an issue but the associated 6th Mass Extinction. At some point there will be a number of species that a modal points in the biosphere and in various food chains and at that point the deterioration of habitats and conditions for food production becomes turbo-charged.
David Attenborough was on TV saying that there is still hope. If there is any hope then there is very little. But when you can fight for something without hope then you can really fight. My hope is that Extinction Rebellion grows and causes absolute mayhem globally, because that is exactly what a fossil-fulled economy is doing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 19:16:29 GMT 1
Well done on your religious holiday Why well done? Do you have a problem in people celebrating Easter? Not at all.... celebrate how you wish... enjoy....
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Post by Pilch on Apr 19, 2019 20:34:29 GMT 1
some of our older members might remember the earth about 5 billion years ago
asteroids struck and boiled all the water nothing lived nothing grew
and yet from nothing we have millions of forms of life today evolution makes the decisions not us
a couple of Tesco carrier bags isn't going to change things
anyone know how many air miles Attenborough has clocked up during his days ?
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Post by SeanBroseley on Apr 19, 2019 21:02:59 GMT 1
We make the decisions. In the last 30 years when the link between CO2 and industrial activity has been widely known human activity has pumped as much CO2 in the air as in the whole of the rest of the period of the industrial revolution.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Apr 19, 2019 21:05:31 GMT 1
There is every reason (not excuse) for breaking the law. The defence in the recent fracking case also showed that there was a just cause defence that meant the charges on that occasion were successfully defended.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 19, 2019 21:12:15 GMT 1
There is every reason (not excuse) for breaking the law. The defence in the recent fracking case also showed that there was a just cause defence that meant the charges on that occasion were successfully defended. at yet at 11:45 every week day , my house rocks despite being about a mile from Bayston Hill quarry , this is when they set off some explosives should I nip down and sit on London Bridge maybe ?
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Post by venceremos on Apr 19, 2019 21:42:59 GMT 1
some of our older members might remember the earth about 5 billion years ago asteroids struck and boiled all the water nothing lived nothing grew and yet from nothing we have millions of forms of life today evolution makes the decisions not us a couple of Tesco carrier bags isn't going to change things anyone know how many air miles Attenborough has clocked up during his days ? Professor Pilch challenging the scientific consensus there - about as convincingly as Nigel Lawson ("global warming will mean fewer people die of cold-related diseases"). Feel free to present your scientific credentials. I have none to speak of, which is why I defer to those who know what they're talking about, instead of making up gibberish.
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Post by Pilch on Apr 19, 2019 21:50:10 GMT 1
some of our older members might remember the earth about 5 billion years ago asteroids struck and boiled all the water nothing lived nothing grew and yet from nothing we have millions of forms of life today evolution makes the decisions not us a couple of Tesco carrier bags isn't going to change things anyone know how many air miles Attenborough has clocked up during his days ? Professor Pilch challenging the scientific consensus there - about as convincingly as Nigel Lawson ("global warming will mean fewer people die of cold-related diseases"). Feel free to present your scientific credentials. I have none to speak of, which is why I defer to those who know what they're talking about, instead of making up gibberish. as these the same experts who cant decide if we are heading for an ice age or global warming ? they will tell you something else next week and you'll believe that too
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Post by SeanBroseley on Apr 19, 2019 21:58:36 GMT 1
There is every reason (not excuse) for breaking the law. The defence in the recent fracking case also showed that there was a just cause defence that meant the charges on that occasion were successfully defended. at yet at 11:45 every week day , my house rocks despite being about a mile from Bayston Hill quarry , this is when they set off some explosives should I nip down and sit on London Bridge maybe ? Sure.
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Post by venceremos on Apr 19, 2019 22:00:33 GMT 1
Anybody listen to the podcast " drilled"? If not, I recommend it. Very good analysis if how big oil used PR to legitimise its activities. One of the most interesting observations (for me) is how one of their biggest wins was convincing people that it was down to them as individuals to make small lifestyle changes rather than expect a systemic change. Hence, we get people insisting on cycling everywhere, reducing consumption of certain foods etc. All p**sing in the wind of course; it's not that people don't care, it's that they have little agency. As somebody living in Shropshire, the earnings to house price ratio combined with the complete savaging of our public transport network and the low range of electric vehicles means I have no choice but to drive a " dirty" car, sometimes for up to hundreds of miles a week if I want to feed my family. Similarly, I have 2 children now; the comparatively smaller size of modern new builds means if I want to house my family in somewhere which will give us an acceptable quality of life but which I won't still be paying for by the time my kids are in their 30s, I have to go for a less efficient older property. The real issue here, of course, is austerity. We could be taking advantage of historic low interest rates and borrowing money to lend out at cost to people to insulate their homes, instal solar panels etc. Governmemt could be investing in or incentivising investment to give us a world class renewable energy sector. Both councils and central government could subsidise buses and trains to make them more affordable and make it profitable to run more and from/to more remote destinations. We could even be investing in the ePace and ensuring a more reasonably priced version with a better range becomes more widely available. We can do all of that stuff; the only thing that stops us is the misguided obsession with an arbitrary deficit which very few actually understand yet which is used as a justification for the current government's destructive policies. That's why I disagree that climate change is our generation's biggest crisis. For me, it's austerity. Everything else stems from that and that's why the most revolutionary act I csn commit is to vote against those policies, as I consistently have. This is why, in my view, it's pointless targetting others such as myself who have priorities which clash with climate concerns and little choice in the matter. If you really want to make a change donate, campaign or protest for an anti austerity party and chuck the Tories out at the next election. Everything will get a lot easier from there. It's easy and convenient to claim reducing your own meat consumption or carbon emissions is p**sing in the wind, but then so is anything and everything we do as individuals when it comes down to it. Most of us still choose what we believe to be the better course of action. Yes, crayfish, we're all virtue signallers, even you! If individuals do nothing, there's less pressure on government and business to do anything because doing something is always harder than doing nothing. What a prescription for humanity. We're all compromised, that's unavoidable. The moment someone has a child they're adding to environmental damage. Does that mean it's not our responsibility, that we should leave it to someone else to act? How can austerity be humanity's biggest crisis? How can voting against austerity make everything else "a lot easier"? Climate change affects everyone everywhere. Austerity doesn't. The idea that simply changing our government ends the problem is absurd. How would that reduce CO2 or methane emissions globally? We can do what we can as individuals, we can change/pressure our government to do more but the UK could have the greenest government following policies of private sufficiency/public luxury (as George Monbiot proposes) and it would still only be a tiny fraction of what's needed to avert potential global catastrophe. We have to do what we can but we have to encourage others to do likewise. When our priorities clash with "climate concerns", we have to change our priorities - or have them changed for us. Ultimately, there is nothing more important and if we waste even more time thinking we're being clever by blaming others as an excuse for doing nothing ourselves, then we're well and truly ****ed. That'll take some explaining to the kids.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Apr 19, 2019 22:00:40 GMT 1
The science has not been in doubt - among scientists - for years.
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Post by venceremos on Apr 19, 2019 22:03:34 GMT 1
Professor Pilch challenging the scientific consensus there - about as convincingly as Nigel Lawson ("global warming will mean fewer people die of cold-related diseases"). Feel free to present your scientific credentials. I have none to speak of, which is why I defer to those who know what they're talking about, instead of making up gibberish. as these the same experts who cant decide if we are heading for an ice age or global warming ? they will tell you something else next week and you'll believe that too Yeah right, they're all liars. Why would they lie? No idea, just that if we don't like what they're saying, they must be lying. Do you tell your doctor you don't believe them too? Good luck with that.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Apr 19, 2019 22:17:20 GMT 1
Austerity and the climate crisis are about the same thing - resources.
There is a scarcity issue with natural resources. Perpetual growth is not possible on a finite planet where there is next no sign of a de-coupling of economic growth from carbon dioxide production.
Austerity is about holding down wages until the middle classes in China and India catch up. This is the social wage of state pensions and public services. The is scarcity as a political decision. Where it is said that the provision of services by the state today (whether directly or indirectly) will put an intolerable burden on our children (even though the stock of debt has increased in the last 10 years).
The shear viciousness of our government towards sections of our society because of austerity policies suggests that the mobilisation to change our way of life to make it more resilient against the inevitable changes in the climate suggests that a significant proportion of our population will be thrown under the bus in the process. So that adjustment will require a new way of organising the relationship between government, private enterprise and communities.
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Post by champagneprince on Apr 19, 2019 22:27:16 GMT 1
I think there's no doubt that climate change is happening and I'll repeat that nobody cares enough about it. People care, but just not enough! The governments of the world need to make us care and make our employers care. But they won't and that's because money rules.
This thread will sink away down the pages, the protesters will go home, the climate change slot on the news will get taken over by Trump or Brexit and people will continue enjoying long hot summers (until it becomes unbearable).
Good luck to these protesters, all very admirable, but I agree with the post above that they may have had more of an impact camping outside the Chinese embassy (and with it the US and Indian embassies too)
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Post by Pilch on Apr 19, 2019 22:48:49 GMT 1
as these the same experts who cant decide if we are heading for an ice age or global warming ? they will tell you something else next week and you'll believe that too Yeah right, they're all liars. Why would they lie? No idea, just that if we don't like what they're saying, they must be lying. Do you tell your doctor you don't believe them too? Good luck with that. I never said anyone lies, but people do get things wrong, even clever people, perhaps its the millennium bug they have ;-) as for my doctor they dont lie either but they do get things wrong I saw 4 different doctors last year, the first 3 I went to see with the same symptoms but got 3 different diagnosis 4th time I went with something unrelated , she discovered the illness I'd had all along and sent me straight to the rhs my original post wasn't meant to be serious but I would suggest that you don't believe all you read in the bible
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Post by davycrockett on Apr 20, 2019 6:47:23 GMT 1
some of our older members might remember the earth about 5 billion years ago asteroids struck and boiled all the water nothing lived nothing grew and yet from nothing we have millions of forms of life today evolution makes the decisions not us a couple of Tesco carrier bags isn't going to change things anyone know how many air miles Attenborough has clocked up during his days ? You are Donald Trump I claim the prize...........
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2019 8:40:50 GMT 1
she discovered the illness I'd had all along and sent me straight to the rhs Royal Horticultural Society? Are you an herbaceous border? ππ
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Post by Pilch on Apr 20, 2019 10:00:00 GMT 1
some of our older members might remember the earth about 5 billion years ago asteroids struck and boiled all the water nothing lived nothing grew and yet from nothing we have millions of forms of life today evolution makes the decisions not us a couple of Tesco carrier bags isn't going to change things anyone know how many air miles Attenborough has clocked up during his days ? You are Donald Trump I claim the prize........... if I was Donald trump I'd have a house as big as yours
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Post by Pilch on Apr 20, 2019 10:01:29 GMT 1
she discovered the illness I'd had all along and sent me straight to the rhs Royal Horticultural Society? Are you an herbaceous border? ππ no but I was prescribed some foxglove
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Post by venceremos on Apr 20, 2019 12:04:27 GMT 1
I think there's no doubt that climate change is happening and I'll repeat that nobody cares enough about it. People care, but just not enough! The governments of the world need to make us care and make our employers care. But they won't and that's because money rules. This thread will sink away down the pages, the protesters will go home, the climate change slot on the news will get taken over by Trump or Brexit and people will continue enjoying long hot summers (until it becomes unbearable). Good luck to these protesters, all very admirable, but I agree with the post above that they may have had more of an impact camping outside the Chinese embassy (and with it the US and Indian embassies too) Money may rule but the interests of money evolve just as much as any other. Look at the UK's renewable energy sector - it's gone from almost nothing to 25% of our electricity production in 2016 (as I write this, almost one third of our electricity is coming from zero emission renewables). There used to be money in generating electricity from coal - you'd do better owning a solar farm now. Perhaps you're right and not enough people care enough about it today. Perhaps the threat still seems too remote. But this year there'll be another round of "freak" weather emergencies, droughts and catastrophic wild fires and next year the same, gradually worsening. Sooner or later, people will have no choice but to care enough, because the tangible consequences will be too real to ignore. Some might think it's a lifestyle choice now but even they'll struggle to turn a blind eye for much longer. A protest outside a foreign embassy would attract almost no media/social media attention and you can't build a movement without that. Besides which, national borders are meaningless when the problem is global. I do believe in our ability to avert the worst outcomes though. We're seeing technological innovation begin to transform energy production and I think most of us will live to see the day when nobody buys a petrol engine vehicle. There'll be money to be made in capturing carbon already released into the atmosphere. I don't think it's too big a stretch from here to see the commercialising of meat grown from stem cells, rather than sentient, greenhouse gas emitting animals. There'll be money in that too - in fact a lot of wealthy investors are already backing this development. In spite of ourselves and our lazy habits, I think we can change but, as you say, we'll be dragged along with bigger, unavoidable changes brought about by technological innovation, governments and business interests. But we need to step up the pressure on governments to make this more of a priority - which is where Extinction Rebellion come in, even if some whine about being made late for work. More power to the rebels.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2019 15:12:22 GMT 1
Royal Horticultural Society? Are you an herbaceous border? ππ no but I was prescribed some foxglove Cold hands?
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Post by Pilch on Apr 20, 2019 15:41:35 GMT 1
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Post by neilsalop on Apr 20, 2019 17:45:22 GMT 1
The huge problem with your argument is this. Firstly Britain produces only slightly more than 1% of global carbon dioxide emissions. So if we did not produce any at all it would make hardly any difference to climate change. The main problem is the industrialion of India and Africa and the enormous population growth in the Middle East and Africa that is what is causing the problems not Britain or Europe. One of the biggest factors in the Syrian civil war was hunger, caused by failed crops, in turn caused by weather/climate conditions. This is happening all over the Middle East and North Africa with temperatures starting to peak in some instances at 50 degrees. Add in the lack of water in this area (there is less than 1,000 cubic meters (m3) of renewable water resources per person, compared with 4,500 m3 in East Asia Pacific and 9,000 m3 in the United States). If people are still to able to live in the region in the future they will have to get used to regular summer temperatures of 46 degrees on summer days and will see humidity increace by to 10%. The extra air conditioning alone will up the energy requirements by 35% if they start to excede those temperatures.
For once I can actually agree with a Saudi Arabian initative along with other gulf nations to expand their solar and other renewable capacity to 9.5GW by 2023, but this is all to be funded by selling their dirty oil to the rest of the world and is therefore going to be negated by the carbon emissions that oil throws out. They are however at least trying to do something, whereas we, the US, China and India seen to be hoping for the best. Not a great policy.
I actually wish the climate protesters all the best, because when billionaires can throw hundreds of millions of pounds, dollars and euros at the Catholic church to fix Notre Dame, but won't do the same thing to protect the environment that their kids and grandkids will need, perhaps they do need a kick up the jacksy and if these tree huggers, loonies, etc are actually making people sit up and take notice it can't be a bad thing.
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