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Post by ssshrew on Feb 18, 2019 17:22:39 GMT 1
Ooo a splinter group within a splinter group I see coming as they all put their feet right in it!!! It’s easy to criticise a leader until you have to become one!
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Post by northwestman on Feb 18, 2019 17:31:39 GMT 1
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Post by blueboy62 on Feb 18, 2019 18:10:37 GMT 1
This is corporate PR and marketing politics. Next up: a party name. more "high profile" recruits, policy reveals, and lots of hype, all timed to do maximum damage. The individuals involved have a finite but large quantity of seed capital from their puppet masters. If they have impact then they will get more funding. If not, then losses are low, strings will be cut and they will be dropped. Got Mandelson written all over it. Oh dear, that could mean Anthony Lyndon Weapons of Mass Destruction Blair is stirring the pot as well.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 18, 2019 18:39:34 GMT 1
Interesting that Woodcock and Field are not joining this. Are we seeing a split between the People’s Centrist Front and the People’s front for Centrism?
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 18, 2019 18:44:38 GMT 1
This is corporate PR and marketing politics. Next up: a party name. more "high profile" recruits, policy reveals, and lots of hype, all timed to do maximum damage. The individuals involved have a finite but large quantity of seed capital from their puppet masters. If they have impact then they will get more funding. If not, then losses are low, strings will be cut and they will be dropped. Do feel that's a little unfair considering the reasons given for leaving. These are not trivial matters. Indeed these are not trivial matters. It’s called class politics - which are never trivial. If they were trivial there wouldn’t be a civil war currently in the Labour Party instigated by the right using whatever weapon comes to hand.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 18, 2019 19:02:03 GMT 1
i have not felt represented by the politicians for some time, shallow self serving egoistical and rushing to get there faces in the gravy train,is my view on most of them on all shades of the political spectrum. I disagree strongly with this. I feel unrepresented and disillusioned too, but with the political system rather than individuals. It's easy to take cynical pot shots but that's always been the case - many politicians were no less self-serving etc etc in the past. I know there are a lot of very hard working MPs, who aren't on any sort of gravy train, trying to do their best in a system that crushes individuality and creativity. I still believe there are many MPs on all sides with a genuine commitment to public service. My question for those professing to have a "they're all as bad as each other" approach to politics is why do you bother to vote at all, assuming you do?
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 18, 2019 19:13:13 GMT 1
It is important to nail Chuka Umunna for the complete shyster that he is.
In 2016 he sat on the Home Affairs Select Committee that recommended clarifications to the IHRA definition of antisemitism - clarifications that were designed to ensure that freedom of speech is maintained in the context of discussions about Israel and Palestine.
The committee also found "no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher prevalence of antisemitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party." Umunna did not demur on these conclusions but he still rejected Chakrobarti Report because .... whatever.
Despite the conclusions of the Select Committee he went on to fulminate against the Labour Party's proposed code of conduct on anti-semitism that provided the clarifications supported by the Select Committee and referred to the Labour Party as "institutionally racist".
In September 2016 Umunna said, "If continuation of the free movement we have is the price of Single Market membership then clearly we couldn't remain in the Single Market."
In December 2016 Umunna urged remain campaigners to abandon calls for a 2nd referendum or risk being seen as a metropolitan elite "who think they know best".
He is now a leading campaigner for a 2nd referendum.
So when Umunna says something on an issue you can rest assured he'll say the opposite a couple of years later.
He is a s**tehawk.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 18, 2019 19:23:47 GMT 1
This is corporate PR and marketing politics. Next up: a party name. more "high profile" recruits, policy reveals, and lots of hype, all timed to do maximum damage. The individuals involved have a finite but large quantity of seed capital from their puppet masters. If they have impact then they will get more funding. If not, then losses are low, strings will be cut and they will be dropped. Puppet masters? The People's Front for Centrism may walk like a duck and quack like a duck but it is a private company and not a political party. That means that donations to it are not subject to electoral laws that require them to state who their backers are.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Feb 18, 2019 19:52:20 GMT 1
i have not felt represented by the politicians for some time, shallow self serving egoistical and rushing to get there faces in the gravy train,is my view on most of them on all shades of the political spectrum. I disagree strongly with this. I feel unrepresented and disillusioned too, but with the political system rather than individuals. It's easy to take cynical pot shots but that's always been the case - many politicians were no less self-serving etc etc in the past. I know there are a lot of very hard working MPs, who aren't on any sort of gravy train, trying to do their best in a system that crushes individuality and creativity. I still believe there are many MPs on all sides with a genuine commitment to public service. My question for those professing to have a "they're all as bad as each other" approach to politics is why do you bother to vote at all, assuming you do? Good post. Anyone who thinks MPs are in it for the money is deluded, it costs £ thousands to stand as a candidate and if fortunate enough to be elected the pay is significantly lower than would be available in jobs of similar responsibility. There's undoubtedly a problem caused by the very narrow section of the population from which MPs are selected and by the first past the post system which makes it virtually impossible for smaller or new parties to gat their candidates elected. This means that the legislature is dominated by 2 parties in which MPs have little freedom to advocate for their beliefs as they are whipped into voting in line with the views of the leadership.
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Post by tvor on Feb 18, 2019 20:00:09 GMT 1
He associates with Hamas, the IRA and numerous other groups. He is a terrorist sympathiser and has dragged the Labour party in such a terrible direction that some long standing MPs are leaving stating the party is inherently racist and anti-Semitic. Well, various governments over the years, including Thatcher's, have "associated" with the IRA and other groups. That's the only way peace ever comes about and it doesn't make anyone a "terrorist". I'm dissatisfied with a few things about Corbyn but the nonsense about him being a terrorist or terrorist sympathiser isn't one of them. There's clearly an issue with anti-Semitism in the Labour party but I don't believe Corbyn is anti-Semitic and he certainly isn't a racist. However, there's a wider national issue regarding anti-Semitism and racism. Labour tends to wash its laundry in public where other parties don't. But nobody seems to bat an eyelid at the Tories aligning themselves with the DUP who have a very shady past in terms of association with loyalist paramilitary organisations, particularly around founding Ulster Resistance. In the same week that the Tories did their deal for support from the DUP Arlene Foster was meeting with the leader of the UDA, who days earlier had murdered a father in front of his three year old son in broad daylight, but she refused to condemn it and is apparently happy for that organisation to support her party in elections. www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2017/dup-chief-arlene-foster-met-uda-boss-days-after-loyalist-murder-in-bangor-35776873.html
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Post by tvor on Feb 18, 2019 20:02:13 GMT 1
It is important to nail Chuka Umunna for the complete shyster that he is. Like his idol Tony Blair the bloke is a Tory in all but name, no loss whatsoever.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 20:04:05 GMT 1
As usual Sean nails it.
Let's all think for a moment and let it sink in that some members of the PLP would rather destroy a party that has fought for normal working people's rights, and continues to do so, than have Corbyn in charge.
The "centrist Blairite" faction have tried everything, even stooping as low as suggesting the Party is virulently anti-Semitic and racist, this is the last throw of the dice.
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 18, 2019 20:04:50 GMT 1
It is important to nail Chuka Umunna for the complete shyster that he is. Like his idol Tony Blair the bloke is a Tory in all but name, no loss whatsoever. Tony Blair should be hung for treason.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 18, 2019 20:12:48 GMT 1
The People's Front for Centrism may walk like a duck and quack like a duck but it is a private company and not a political party. That means that donations to it are not subject to electoral laws that require them to state who their backers are. That will change if they stand for election but there's no election on the horizon. Besides which, all parties have their backers/puppet masters. Is that really the big issue of the day? Given the choice between May's Party for the Appeasement of the Hard Right at all Costs and Corbyn's Party of High-Minded Eternal Opposition, I find myself drawn towards the People's Front for Centrism. Or Green.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 18, 2019 20:22:00 GMT 1
As usual Sean nails it. Let's all think for a moment and let it sink in that some members of the PLP would rather destroy a party that has fought for normal working people's rights, and continues to do so, than have Corbyn in charge. The "centrist Blairite" faction have tried everything, even stooping as low as suggesting the Party is virulently anti-Semitic and racist, this is the last throw of the dice. Wrong. I'm not interested in destroying Labour, far from it, and I don't believe any Labour MPs or voters are. But neither am I drawn towards voting for it in its current state. Whatever you or I think of brexit, Corbyn is seen as indecisive and opportunistic on the topic and Labour is losing too much support from Remain voters (and Labour voters backed Remain 2-1 in 2016) to stand a chance of winning an election. I could be as critical of those keeping their heads below the parapet or standing by while Labour sleepwalks into losing the next election as you are of those too disillusioned by its sorry state to stay on. I don't know what you mean by "normal working people" but Labour can't do anything for their rights unless it actually wins an election. A strong second against a feeble, incompetent government won't be a good result next time and the Tories will surely up their electoral game for the next one.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 18, 2019 20:22:51 GMT 1
Like his idol Tony Blair the bloke is a Tory in all but name, no loss whatsoever. Tony Blair should be hung for treason. Another welcome contribution from The Voice of Reason …..
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 18, 2019 20:24:04 GMT 1
The People's Front for Centrism may walk like a duck and quack like a duck but it is a private company and not a political party. That means that donations to it are not subject to electoral laws that require them to state who their backers are. That will change if they stand for election but there's no election on the horizon. Besides which, all parties have their backers/puppet masters. Is that really the big issue of the day? Given the choice between May's Party for the Appeasement of the Hard Right at all Costs and Corbyn's Party of High-Minded Eternal Opposition, I find myself drawn towards the People's Front for Centrism. Or Green. It is a very big issue today. Because today these people are in parliament being funded by god only knows who - and neither their constituents nor anyone else can find out. Right now that is the biggest takeaway from today's events.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 18, 2019 20:33:36 GMT 1
That will change if they stand for election but there's no election on the horizon. Besides which, all parties have their backers/puppet masters. Is that really the big issue of the day? Given the choice between May's Party for the Appeasement of the Hard Right at all Costs and Corbyn's Party of High-Minded Eternal Opposition, I find myself drawn towards the People's Front for Centrism. Or Green. It is a very big issue today. Because today these people are in parliament being funded by god only knows who - and neither their constituents nor anyone else can find out. I beg to differ. I'm more exercised by the fact that Honda is closing its UK manufacturing arm and 3,500 plus however many more in the UK supply chain will lose their jobs and that this is a continuing sequence of closure and retraction in UK manufacturing rather than a one off. Besides which, we're talking about seven salaried MPs with no election campaigns to fight. What funding do they need? What mysteriously dark forces are going to be behind that? When it comes to any election, it will be as clear as it is for any other political grouping.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 18, 2019 20:43:08 GMT 1
It is a very big issue today. Because today these people are in parliament being funded by god only knows who - and neither their constituents nor anyone else can find out. I beg to differ. I'm more exercised by the fact that Honda is closing its UK manufacturing arm and 3,500 plus however many more in the UK supply chain will lose their jobs and that this is a continuing sequence of closure and retraction in UK manufacturing rather than a one off. Besides which, we're talking about seven salaried MPs with no election campaigns to fight. What funding do they need? What mysteriously dark forces are going to be behind that? When it comes to any election, it will be as clear as it is for any other political grouping. And until then it doesn't matter? The next election may be three years away. I don't see any basis for suggesting that the only expenses involved in establishing a new party are salaries of its MPs until the mad two months of an election campaign. Who is paying those bills?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 20:48:53 GMT 1
As usual Sean nails it. Let's all think for a moment and let it sink in that some members of the PLP would rather destroy a party that has fought for normal working people's rights, and continues to do so, than have Corbyn in charge. The "centrist Blairite" faction have tried everything, even stooping as low as suggesting the Party is virulently anti-Semitic and racist, this is the last throw of the dice. Wrong. I'm not interested in destroying Labour, far from it, and I don't believe any Labour MPs or voters are. But neither am I drawn towards voting for it in its current state. Whatever you or I think of brexit, Corbyn is seen as indecisive and opportunistic on the topic and Labour is losing too much support from Remain voters (and Labour voters backed Remain 2-1 in 2016) to stand a chance of winning an election. I could be as critical of those keeping their heads below the parapet or standing by while Labour sleepwalks into losing the next election as you are of those too disillusioned by its sorry state to stay on. I don't know what you mean by "normal working people" but Labour can't do anything for their rights unless it actually wins an election. A strong second against a feeble, incompetent government won't be a good result next time and the Tories will surely up their electoral game for the next one. You're not a member of the PLP. I don't even know if you're a member of the party. If you are, you have the to chance to vote him out. This has nothing to do with Brexit, this the end game of Corbyn's election in 2015. This is about the heart and soul of the Labour Party and the party's future policy. Which will be the same as the Tories.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 18, 2019 20:52:42 GMT 1
It is important to nail what a shyster Angela Smith is.
In 2007 Angela voted unsuccessfully to keep her expense details secret. Nothing untoward in that: why would the public want to know about her claiming for four beds for a one-bedroom flat in London?
Smith employs her husband as her parliamentary assistant.
In 2016 Smith and her husband were repeatedly taken to football and dinner by Whitehouse Construction, a sub-contractor to Anglian Water and member of the "Future Water Association", an industry group led by private water firms, which also fund the All Party Water Group [Note to venceremos the All Party Water Group isn't a political party seeking to stand its own candidates in the next general election]
Coincidentally, Smith opposes Labour's plans to renationalise the water industry. To support her argument Smith has cited a report by the think tank the Social Market Foundation that was commissioned by the water industry.
She is a s**tehawk.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 18, 2019 20:55:42 GMT 1
Anyone who thinks that an MP is in it for the money should be open to evidence that could change their mind. Until then it is a reasonable working model.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 18, 2019 21:07:02 GMT 1
I see the new centrist party (that's not actually officially a party) is off to a flier as Angela Smith is forced to apologise for referring to ethnic minorities as people with a "funny tinge" hours after the launch. Truly incredible scenes. Was there any mention of this on BBC, ITV or C4 news? Corbyn only has to mutter "stupid people" under his breath and there's wall to wall coverage. Interesting how the world works.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 18, 2019 21:12:10 GMT 1
It is important to nail what a shyster Angela Smith is. In 2007 Angela voted unsuccessfully to keep her expense details secret. Nothing untoward in that: why would the public want to know about her claiming for four beds for a one-bedroom flat in London? Smith employs her husband as her parliamentary assistant. In 2016 Smith and her husband were repeatedly taken to football and dinner by Whitehouse Construction, a sub-contractor to Anglian Water and member of the "Future Water Association", an industry group led by private water firms, which also fund the All Party Water Group [Note to venceremos the All Party Water Group isn't a political party seeking to stand its own candidates in the next general election] Coincidentally, Smith opposes Labour's plans to renationalise the water industry. To support her argument Smith has cited a report by the think tank the Social Market Foundation that was commissioned by the water industry. She is a s**tehawk. I look forward to the remaining 648 instalments of these pen portraits of current MPs, their inconsistencies and questionable incidents from their past. You're surely not going to stop at 7 are you? I'm fairly sure more than 7 MPs have received hospitality of some sort from industry groups, political consultants, lobbyists, NGOs and other interested parties with whom they've established a connection. It is important to be fair minded and consistent - or declare that one has no intention of being so.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 18, 2019 21:14:15 GMT 1
I beg to differ. I'm more exercised by the fact that Honda is closing its UK manufacturing arm and 3,500 plus however many more in the UK supply chain will lose their jobs and that this is a continuing sequence of closure and retraction in UK manufacturing rather than a one off. Besides which, we're talking about seven salaried MPs with no election campaigns to fight. What funding do they need? What mysteriously dark forces are going to be behind that? When it comes to any election, it will be as clear as it is for any other political grouping. And until then it doesn't matter? The next election may be three years away. I don't see any basis for suggesting that the only expenses involved in establishing a new party are salaries of its MPs until the mad two months of an election campaign. Who is paying those bills? Returning to my original comment, I don't believe it's the biggest issue of the day (do you?), which is not the same as it not mattering.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 18, 2019 21:18:45 GMT 1
It is important to nail what a shyster Angela Smith is. In 2007 Angela voted unsuccessfully to keep her expense details secret. Nothing untoward in that: why would the public want to know about her claiming for four beds for a one-bedroom flat in London? Smith employs her husband as her parliamentary assistant. In 2016 Smith and her husband were repeatedly taken to football and dinner by Whitehouse Construction, a sub-contractor to Anglian Water and member of the "Future Water Association", an industry group led by private water firms, which also fund the All Party Water Group [Note to venceremos the All Party Water Group isn't a political party seeking to stand its own candidates in the next general election] Coincidentally, Smith opposes Labour's plans to renationalise the water industry. To support her argument Smith has cited a report by the think tank the Social Market Foundation that was commissioned by the water industry. She is a s**tehawk. I look forward to the remaining 648 instalments of these pen portraits of current MPs, their inconsistencies and questionable incidents from their past. You're surely not going to stop at 7 are you? I'm fairly sure more than 7 MPs have received hospitality of some sort from industry groups, political consultants, lobbyists, NGOs and other interested parties with whom they've established a connection. It is important to be fair minded and consistent - or declare that one has no intention of being so. I'm not even going to stretch to the seven. But it is correct there are a number of MPs across all parties that receive money from foreign governments. Something that I think is an absolute disgrace.
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Post by percy on Feb 18, 2019 21:20:32 GMT 1
I appreciate my views re different from the above, but as a lifelong labour supporter I am deeply saddened by this. I have spoken to Chuka a number of times and have found him to be one of the more reasonable and open minded mps - not at all the egotistical shyster portrayed above. McDonnell on the other hand i found closed completely - a deeply frustrating man. IMO Corbyn is the fringe who should be hounded out rather than the centrists (of which I am one). Sad day for labour- Corbyn refusing to follow the line agreed democratically by the party and everyone is scared to speak out against him because of the whitchhunters who support him - very much like the Spanish Inquisition which also persecuted Jews and those with different views. At a time when we need a true opposition to the Tories we are letting Corbyn run amok with his own agenda.
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Post by northwestman on Feb 18, 2019 21:24:36 GMT 1
Absolutely no need for M.Ps to rely on their salaries! Apart from still being able to take advantage of expenses claims, many are well remunerated elsewhere:- Kawczynski, Daniel (Shrewsbury and Atcham) Employment and earnings From 1 February 2018 until further notice, consultant providing general advice to The Electrum Group LLC, a mining group based in the USA. Address: 535 Madison Avenue Floor 12, New York NY 10022. I earn £6,000 gross per month for an expected monthly commitment of 30 hours. (Registered 28 February 2018) Paterson, Mr Owen (North Shropshire) Employment and earnings From 1 August 2015 until further notice, Consultant to Randox Laboratories Ltd, a clinical diagnostics company, of 55 Diamond Road, Crumlin BT29 4QY. I consulted the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments about this role. From 20 April 2017, I expect to receive £8,333 a month for a monthly commitment of 16 hours. (Registered 07 October 2015; updated 26 April 2017) From 14 December 2016, consultant to Lynn’s Country Foods Ltd, a processor and distributor of sausages in the United Kingdom, of Down Business Park, 46 Belfast Road, Downpatrick BT30 9UP. Until further notice I expect to receive £2,000 for 4 hrs every other month (24 hrs a year) to a total of £12,000 per annum. First payment received on 25 January 2017. (Registered 27 January 2017; updated 22 February 2017) From 1 January 2018 until further notice, consultant to Hi-Peak Feeds Ltd, suppliers of animal feeds, of Sheffield Road, Killamarsh, Sheffield S21 1ED (part of the Devenish Nutrition Group). I expect to receive £4,166 a month for a monthly commitment of 8 hours. (Registered 25 January 2018) The Register of Members Financial Interests is a real eye opener! publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmregmem/190204/contents.htmAnd once they leave the House of Commons, the gravy train continues. Blair is the most obvious example, but there are many many others.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 18, 2019 21:30:31 GMT 1
Wrong. I'm not interested in destroying Labour, far from it, and I don't believe any Labour MPs or voters are. But neither am I drawn towards voting for it in its current state. Whatever you or I think of brexit, Corbyn is seen as indecisive and opportunistic on the topic and Labour is losing too much support from Remain voters (and Labour voters backed Remain 2-1 in 2016) to stand a chance of winning an election. I could be as critical of those keeping their heads below the parapet or standing by while Labour sleepwalks into losing the next election as you are of those too disillusioned by its sorry state to stay on. I don't know what you mean by "normal working people" but Labour can't do anything for their rights unless it actually wins an election. A strong second against a feeble, incompetent government won't be a good result next time and the Tories will surely up their electoral game for the next one. You're not a member of the PLP. I don't even know if you're a member of the party. If you are, you have the to chance to vote him out. This has nothing to do with Brexit, this the end game of Corbyn's election in 2015. This is about the heart and soul of the Labour Party and the party's future policy. Which will be the same as the Tories. I was briefly a party member, when Neil Kinnock was leader. I lived in an ultra-blue constituency and my membership lapsed. I almost rejoined in 2015 because I was a Corbyn enthusiast, believe it or not, though not a paid up Corbynite. Outside his own party enthusiasts, he's not a leader though and never will be. Nobody with approval ratings below the walking disaster that is Theresa May can lay claim to being a national leader in waiting. Does that matter? It does to me because you can't do anything about anything when you're locked into opposition and I believe Labour is on course to be that with Corbyn as leader. I don't understand how you can believe that a small number of MPs leaving the party are really battling for its heart and soul. I don't claim to have followed the anti-Semitism issue as closely as others but when the Jewish Labour Movement is reported to be considering its future there must be a problem. I'm certain too, that brexit isn't a sideshow in this; it's fundamental.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 21:47:19 GMT 1
You're not a member of the PLP. I don't even know if you're a member of the party. If you are, you have the to chance to vote him out. This has nothing to do with Brexit, this the end game of Corbyn's election in 2015. This is about the heart and soul of the Labour Party and the party's future policy. Which will be the same as the Tories. I was briefly a party member, when Neil Kinnock was leader. I lived in an ultra-blue constituency and my membership lapsed. I almost rejoined in 2015 because I was a Corbyn enthusiast, believe it or not, though not a paid up Corbynite. Outside his own party enthusiasts, he's not a leader though and never will be. Nobody with approval ratings below the walking disaster that is Theresa May can lay claim to being a national leader in waiting. Does that matter? It does to me because you can't do anything about anything when you're locked into opposition and I believe Labour is on course to be that with Corbyn as leader. I don't understand how you can believe that a small number of MPs leaving the party are really battling for its heart and soul. I don't claim to have followed the anti-Semitism issue as closely as others but when the Jewish Labour Movement is reported to be considering its future there must be a problem. I'm certain too, that brexit isn't a sideshow in this; it's fundamental. You've seen Tom Watson's comments? It's probably too late to change Brexit, this is about the ongoing battle to oust Corbyn that has been ticking along nicely since 2015.
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