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Post by pughywasfree on Feb 9, 2019 16:26:42 GMT 1
It seems to me to be an excercise in setting up a group to solve a problem that does not exist at STFC for no real reason at all. Why does it need to solve a problem? Why can't it be a group of likeminded supporters who can help to open the door for more. It's about inclusivity, raising awareness, helping to tackle mental health problems that are so intrinsically linked to the LGBTQ+ community. And how do you know there aren't young people out there who love Town, but don't feel, for whatever reason, that they can go to the game alone, or with a partner, or don't play football for fear of being judged on who they are not how they play. There are SO many reasons that some of you just can't / won't be able to see or understand. Does the fact so many other clubs have a group like this not suggest that it's relevant? Why define yourself by your sexual orientation instead of being a town fan? A lot of guess work going on.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 9, 2019 16:58:22 GMT 1
Some on this board want proof....are the stories, the experiences so far expressed by fellow supporters on this board not good enough? For goodness sake this isn't a court of law. Sorry mate, but unless I’ve missed something, seems like the feelings expressed are nothing to do with football and more to do with coming out as gay in society You’ve missed something.
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Post by Northwest Shrew on Feb 9, 2019 16:59:09 GMT 1
Sorry mate, but unless I’ve missed something, seems like the feelings expressed are nothing to do with football and more to do with coming out as gay in society You’ve missed something. Sorry. My bad
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 19:20:34 GMT 1
It seems to me to be an excercise in setting up a group to solve a problem that does not exist at STFC for no real reason at all. Why does it need to solve a problem? Why can't it be a group of likeminded supporters who can help to open the door for more. It's about inclusivity, raising awareness, helping to tackle mental health problems that are so intrinsically linked to the LGBTQ+ community. And how do you know there aren't young people out there who love Town, but don't feel, for whatever reason, that they can go to the game alone, or with a partner, or don't play football for fear of being judged on who they are not how they play. There are SO many reasons that some of you just can't / won't be able to see or understand. Does the fact so many other clubs have a group like this not suggest that it's relevant? Again, spot on. And the amount of complancy of this thread is a bit of a worry. Not just about LGBT issues either.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 0:24:04 GMT 1
I find this a really interesting thread. It does show how far we have come as a Society. Nobody would have dreamed about starting a thread like this fifteen years ago because of the abuse they would have received from a high number of people. With my job I do an awful lot around inclusion. I really look forward to the day when people don't feel they need to have separate groups which ends up giving them a label them. What I have liked on this thread is the fact as a group we don't care anything about a person other than the fact they are a Town fan, that to me shows we are going along way to be inclusive. Sadly nobody can tell me football overall is totally inclusive and the issue that is trailing so far behind everything else is homophobia. Just taking the top 92 teams in the Country means over 2300 players at any one time. It is statstically impossible that all those men are hetrosexual. Yet no player this Century has felt comfortable to be seen out with a partner of the same sex. With the womens game most people assume all the players are gay, that again isn't right. I wish you good luck with the group and I really look forward to the day when it isn't needed because truly the only thing that matters about people is are they are a nice person or not. This - spot on Martin.
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Post by dachshund on Feb 10, 2019 10:22:11 GMT 1
Genuinely baffled as to why so many people feel the need to log in and ask the original poster to justify their plans to put some like-minded fans in touch. If you are not interested, crack on with your day. ‘What about gingers?’. Christ.
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Post by vixenshrew on Feb 10, 2019 10:38:35 GMT 1
Debate is good. It gets people thinking about the issues. Mr Brightside brought it to this board for discussion so rightly questions have been asked and Mr Brightside has answered them. What's wrong with that? If no- one responded then that would be a concern.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 10:58:19 GMT 1
Debate is good. It gets people thinking about the issues. Mr Brightside brought it to this board for discussion so rightly questions have been asked and Mr Brightside has answered them. What's wrong with that? If no- one responded then that would be a concern. There's a difference between debate and being told to get over yourselves. I think Dachshund is talking about some of the question being raised. Which, is fair.
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Post by Mr Brightside on Feb 10, 2019 11:18:39 GMT 1
Debate is good. It gets people thinking about the issues. Mr Brightside brought it to this board for discussion so rightly questions have been asked and Mr Brightside has answered them. What's wrong with that? If no- one responded then that would be a concern. There's a difference between debate and being told to get over yourselves. I think Dachshund is talking about some of the question being raised. Which, is fair. It's nothing I didn't already expect folks
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Post by buryshrew on Feb 10, 2019 12:57:59 GMT 1
Instead of being opposed to this, or saying there isn't a problem, how about simply asking why someone would go to all the hassle, time and thankless commitment to create something like this for no reason.
If gay people have issues over attending football matches, however much the issues may be perceived or real, if a group like this helps the people involved, acts as a mutual support and a general force for equality and acceptance, then why on earth should anyone else have an issue with it?
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nath
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Post by nath on Feb 10, 2019 12:58:17 GMT 1
Fantastic!
Great idea and wish you the best with this - the club have always been great at responding whenever I’ve emailed about LGBT issues and I hope this supporters group goes some way to setting an example to the rest of football clubs in Britain, as well as other sports!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 13:48:29 GMT 1
There's a difference between debate and being told to get over yourselves. I think Dachshund is talking about some of the question being raised. Which, is fair. It's nothing I didn't already expect folks And it's a shame. In some cases you've been challenged to justify yourself. There is no need to justify anything, again, it's a shame.
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Post by vixenshrew on Feb 10, 2019 18:18:46 GMT 1
It's nothing I didn't already expect folks And it's a shame. In some cases you've been challenged to justify yourself. There is no need to justify anything, again, it's a shame. Your avitar says ' the aim of argument or of discussion should not be victory but progress' you won't get progress if you don't have discussion and allow people to ask questions. If if you shut people out they will remain unlightened as to what is being achieved. Ive attended many diversity training sessions over the years and some of the earlier ones (80s) were where you weren't allowed to ask questions without being considered racist, homeophobic etc and the theme was always to blame the white heterosexual male. People walked away from these having learnt nothing and being annoyed. Later on lessons were learnt and the diversity training allowed discussion and questions and individuals became more enlightened of the issues. Unfortunately your never going to change everyone's viewpoint, but as the younger generations mature such negative beliefs should get less and society becomes more inclusive,
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 19:02:34 GMT 1
And it's a shame. In some cases you've been challenged to justify yourself. There is no need to justify anything, again, it's a shame. Your avitar says ' the aim of argument or of discussion should not be victory but progress' you won't get progress if you don't have discussion and allow people to ask questions. If if you shut people out they will remain unlightened as to what is being achieved. Ive attended many diversity training sessions over the years and some of the earlier ones (80s) were where you weren't allowed to ask questions without being considered racist, homeophobic etc and the theme was always to blame the white heterosexual male. People walked away from these having learnt nothing and being annoyed. Later on lessons were learnt and the diversity training allowed discussion and questions and individuals became more enlightened of the issues. Unfortunately your never going to change everyone's viewpoint, but as the younger generations mature such negative beliefs should get less and society becomes more inclusive, If you read some of the contributions, it is clear that some people don't see the need for this group. There is a world of difference between Mr Brightside and Birmingham Shrew having to justify the reason for a LGBT group and debating the wider issue of homophobia in football. Do the OSC have to justify their existence? What makes them 'official'? Does the SP have to justify their existence? Who voted for those in the 'Parliament'? Did the 'Wheelie Shrews' in the East Stand have to justify their existence? I find it interesting that as soon as a couple of people want to start a group around LGBT people are called on to justify it by some. Like I said it's a shame. But, by all means let's debate homophobia. For example, this. www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-africa-47179197/south-africa-football-being-openly-gay-has-held-my-career-backAnd, the point raised upthread about homosexual British players is an interesting one. Way are there no openly gay British players? What does that say about the culture of British football? Does this culture influence fan behaviour?
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Post by vixenshrew on Feb 10, 2019 19:10:10 GMT 1
Your avitar says ' the aim of argument or of discussion should not be victory but progress' you won't get progress if you don't have discussion and allow people to ask questions. If if you shut people out they will remain unlightened as to what is being achieved. Ive attended many diversity training sessions over the years and some of the earlier ones (80s) were where you weren't allowed to ask questions without being considered racist, homeophobic etc and the theme was always to blame the white heterosexual male. People walked away from these having learnt nothing and being annoyed. Later on lessons were learnt and the diversity training allowed discussion and questions and individuals became more enlightened of the issues. Unfortunately your never going to change everyone's viewpoint, but as the younger generations mature such negative beliefs should get less and society becomes more inclusive, If you read some of the contributions, it is clear that some people don't see the need for this group. There is a world of difference between Mr Brightside and Birmingham Shrew having to justify the reason for a LGBT group and debating the wider issue of homophobia in football. Do the OSC have to justify their existence? What makes them 'official'? Does the SP have to justify their existence? Who voted for those in the 'Parliament'? Did the 'Wheelie Shrews' in the East Stand have to justify their existence? I find it interesting that as soon as a couple of people want to start a group around LGBT people are called on to justify it by some. Like I said it's a shame. But, by all means let's debate homophobia. For example, this. www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-africa-47179197/south-africa-football-being-openly-gay-has-held-my-career-backAnd, the point raised upthread about homosexual British players is an interesting one. Way are there no openly gay British players? What does that say about the culture of British football? Does this culture influence fan behaviour? I have read all the contributions and those that as you say don't see the need for a group asked the questions was there a need and why. This has been explained, so they now know, job done. It's no good getting angry with people asking questions, this is their football club too and as it was put on this board it was therefore open discussion. I think Mr B understands this and that debate can only be a good thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 20:00:06 GMT 1
If you read some of the contributions, it is clear that some people don't see the need for this group. There is a world of difference between Mr Brightside and Birmingham Shrew having to justify the reason for a LGBT group and debating the wider issue of homophobia in football. Do the OSC have to justify their existence? What makes them 'official'? Does the SP have to justify their existence? Who voted for those in the 'Parliament'? Did the 'Wheelie Shrews' in the East Stand have to justify their existence? I find it interesting that as soon as a couple of people want to start a group around LGBT people are called on to justify it by some. Like I said it's a shame. But, by all means let's debate homophobia. For example, this. www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-africa-47179197/south-africa-football-being-openly-gay-has-held-my-career-backAnd, the point raised upthread about homosexual British players is an interesting one. Way are there no openly gay British players? What does that say about the culture of British football? Does this culture influence fan behaviour? I have read all the contributions and those that as you say don't see the need for a group asked the questions was there a need and why. This has been explained, so they now know, job done. It's no good getting angry with people asking questions, this is their football club too and as it was put on this board it was therefore open discussion. I think Mr B understands this and that debate can only be a good thing. Who is getting angry? What are your views on why other supporters groups don't need to justify their existence?
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Post by vixenshrew on Feb 10, 2019 20:25:57 GMT 1
I have read all the contributions and those that as you say don't see the need for a group asked the questions was there a need and why. This has been explained, so they now know, job done. It's no good getting angry with people asking questions, this is their football club too and as it was put on this board it was therefore open discussion. I think Mr B understands this and that debate can only be a good thing. Who is getting angry? What are your views on why other supporters groups don't need to justify their existence? If they come on this board to say they were forming their groups and I didn't know why the group was needed and what the group was going to do then I would ask those questions and would expect a polite answer ( as Mr B has done) Of those you mentioned I attend the SP and they justify their existence by publishing their minutes after each meeting and they have an open meeting where all fans can go along and ask whatever questions they like. Re the OSC I don't use them as I prefer the away travel club and am a member of such. This is because they pick up at Wellington and get me to and from away matches, so that is their justification for existing. I have no idea what the wheelie shrews are. When Mr B's LBGT Group is formed there will be a lot of fans that do not read B&A and when they hear of it no doubt questions will be asked in the stands. Those of us who have read thisthread will be able to explain ( and hopefully champion) why there is a need thanks to Mr B patiently explaining the issues and those very questions asked and answered. It's not about justification but about getting an understanding of why, what, where. You remind me of those 80s instructors, throw out the jargon, expect everybody to understand the issue and accept it without question. Thankfully society doesn't work like that.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 20:52:45 GMT 1
Who is getting angry? What are your views on why other supporters groups don't need to justify their existence? If they come on this board to say they were forming their groups and I didn't know why the group was needed and what the group was going to do then I would ask those questions and would expect a polite answer ( as Mr B has done) Of those you mentioned I attend the SP and they justify their existence by publishing their minutes after each meeting and they have an open meeting where all fans can go along and ask whatever questions they like. Re the OSC I don't use them as I prefer the away travel club and am a member of such. This is because they pick up at Wellington and get me to and from away matches, so that is their justification for existing. I have no idea what the wheelie shrews are. When Mr B's LBGT Group is formed there will be a lot of fans that do not read B&A and when they hear of it no doubt questions will be asked in the stands. Those of us who have read thisthread will be able to explain ( and hopefully champion) why there is a need thanks to Mr B patiently explaining the issues and those very questions asked and answered. It's not about justification but about getting an understanding of why, what, where. You remind me of those 80s instructors, throw out the jargon, expect everybody to understand the issue and accept it without question. Thankfully society doesn't work like that. The point I'm making is that those groups haven't had to justify to the wider supporter base why they actually exist. You have provided explanations why you use them, your own personal reasons. Well there you go, having a LGBT group might help young people and others feel comfortable talking about LGBT issues in an environment that is safe and welcoming. There is a world of difference from asking why, what, where? (and by the way, nobody has) to justifying why we need a LGBT group. Bearing in mind your first post agreed with Downie, despite the reasoning already being explained. You seem to think that the SP should the place to discuss LGBT issues. It has already been suggested that the SP will be approached and I'm sure that the LGBT group can work within the SP as a sub-group while providing support if needed to people who identify as LGBT. Having a LGBT group might open up the wider debate about homophobia in football and answer some of those questions I raised up thread. Some people may see this as important. As for your last paragraph, that's incredibly patronising and rather passive/aggressive. And seeing as I asked a series of questions, doesn't stand true.
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Post by vixenshrew on Feb 10, 2019 21:39:36 GMT 1
The point I'm making is it isn't about justification but about allowing the asking of questions to gain understanding. As for your questions I've answered them as best I can. if they were forming their clubs today and came on this board to announce it then no doubt we would all be asking questions. In fact I'm sure on a recent thread someone did ask who made the OSC official? Also some on B&A have said they think the SP is in BC's pocket so they don't get away scot free on here. Although Downie didn't use the best choice of words his argument was a valid one. I'm not going to repeat all my posts on this matter. I have nothing against the LGBT group Being formed and if it helps people then great, but there will be many who don't read this thread and don't understand the issues and may question/ moan etc. This is my last post on this subject. I wish Mr B all the best in forming the group and I hope it helps in the wider perspective and that one day all minority groups can go about their business without hindrance and with acceptance by all.
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Post by GreatWesternShrew on Feb 10, 2019 21:51:26 GMT 1
As someone previously posted, some of the comments on here are exactly why LGBTQ+ supporter groups are needed.
Its not to marginalize the 'mainstream' fans, its to mainstream the marginalized fans and make us all equal, its 2019 afterall..
I'm not gay but support such movements because football is for everyone.
I will happily contribute to flags etc if ever a supporters group of this nature was set up.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 22:36:53 GMT 1
vixen and nicko will you just kiss and make up please
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 19:03:39 GMT 1
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Post by neilsalop on Feb 12, 2019 21:16:50 GMT 1
That would be a bit easier if there'd never been any prejudice or discrimination. Have you had to deal with much of that? i have had to deal with my choices in life, but never felt the need to publicise it, nobody cares to be honest, i lived a life where it was illegal to be gay, and guess what, the person whom i regarded as my best friend was gay, so ****ing what..... who cares.... he is happy, i am happy... That's like saying Tommy Robinson isn't a racist because he's got a black friend. FFS.
If someone wants to put forward an initative to make LGBT+ supporters/ potential supporters feel more welcome at games that's fine by me and should be fine by anyone other than homophobes. Anyone that has issues with inclusivity really needs to take a long hard look in the mirror.
To be fair I've made the comments on away days in Brighton. Am I proud of that looking back? Hell no. I've changed over the years and am now happy to admit my past failings and actually be able to look in the mirror with no problem (except the wrinkles, I do have a problem with the wrinkles and the grey hair and the receeding hair. OK, I hate looking in the mirror).
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Post by R6ix on Feb 12, 2019 22:11:44 GMT 1
i just think if your gay lesbian transgendered ect , then the most important thing is that you are happy with who you are and not too concerned with how others Percival you,if the guy i sit next to every game is gay, well i dont know, no one calls him names or abuses him if he is, he hasnt told any one he is so he gets no bother,im not gay, if i was i would not tell every one, reason being im there to watch footy not to try and create an enviroment at the club that i might feel more comfy in,either way good luck
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Post by Mr Brightside on Feb 13, 2019 13:32:19 GMT 1
i just think if your gay lesbian transgendered ect , then the most important thing is that you are happy with who you are and not too concerned with how others Percival you,if the guy i sit next to every game is gay, well i dont know, no one calls him names or abuses him if he is, he hasnt told any one he is so he gets no bother,im not gay, if i was i would not tell every one, reason being im there to watch footy not to try and create an enviroment at the club that i might feel more comfy in,either way good luck See, this is a tricky one to explain - but I'll try my best using the example guy who sits next to you. His name is Graham. He's 47 years old. He lives in Monkmoor with his partner of 14 years, their 5 year old son, and their Golden Retriever, Zak. He's a fan of Motown and Northern Soul and hates shellfish. He's been attending Town games since his late father him to stand on the Riverside in 1989 (beating Birmingham City 2-0) and his favourite player of all time is Mickey Brown. He is left handed, and has a mole on his right arm which his doctor tells him could be cancerous and needs further investigation. My point is, Graham's sexuality is but one facet of who he is. It's no more a part of him than his love of Brenda Holloway or his distaste of mussels! In another portrayal Graham might have been seen in Manchester a decade ago with his partner whilst enjoying a birthday weekend away, and been the victim of a homophobic physical attack by drunken thugs identifying as fans of X Y or Z Football Club. Stitches healed the physical wounds and over time bruises fade, but mentally it's left Graham shaken. He's lost some of his love for football and its taken a very long time to go back regularly and watch his team - his confidence has been knocked and in some way he can't quite put his finger on, it's just not the same as it used to be. He doesn't attend matches with friends, and as familiar the faces around him may be, he doesn't feel it's appropriate to discuss these things with them and so just gets involved in the pleasantries of pre-match hellos and post-match grumbles as they file from the stands... When we suggest the formation of a group, it's as much of a support network than it is anything else. Yes - there will be a public face to it (when it's needed), as there is with any other supporter's group. But membership is for anyone who supports the core values, aims and beliefs of the group. We're not suggesting that those who join wear rainbow lapel badges or pink triangles or other identifiers, nor are we suggesting that everyone in the group sits or stands together at matches. Members will continue to attend matches as often or as infrequently as they do currently, and unless they decide to make it known, there's no way you'll know who is a member and who isn't. The main focus for us is to make the whole experience of coming to football matches more comfortable and accessible for people like the second Graham, and improving the environment at grounds and in a tiny part in society in general as a result. As a society, we've come a long way in a short space of time, there's no doubting that - but in some regards, we still have a long way to go. This is just a step further along that road. (And I'm aware this thread has gone on a bit now, so unless anyone has specific questions, that's all from me on the matter for now. Brian has received the initial email regarding the matter, so we will await his response in due course).
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Post by blueboy62 on Feb 13, 2019 16:32:50 GMT 1
Your contributions on this board are a credit to you and will have advanced your cause already.
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Post by suttonshrew on Feb 14, 2019 13:15:12 GMT 1
think its a good idea, its obviously felt its needed by those who have suggested it so im happy to discuss on behalf of the SP how we can help you get the group up and running and advertised through the official channels
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Post by Mr Brightside on Feb 14, 2019 13:39:53 GMT 1
think its a good idea, its obviously felt its needed by those who have suggested it so im happy to discuss on behalf of the SP how we can help you get the group up and running and advertised through the official channels Thanks muchly. I was going to mention it in AOB on Tuesday but we were over-running somewhat! I do already have a formal proposal put together though.
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crayfish
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Post by crayfish on Feb 14, 2019 13:59:29 GMT 1
I have absolutely no problem with LGBT people forming there own group and attending matches together as a sort of social thing nor I think does anyone else. But there seems to be suggestions from some people that if you are gay you might be reluctant to attend a game at STFC this is obvious nonsense as how on earth is anyone at a match going to know you sexuality anyway. Possibly a problem for a not paticularly convincing transsexual but surely not for anyone else. I have not heard any homophobic abuse at a match for decades.
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Post by Mr Brightside on Feb 14, 2019 14:19:14 GMT 1
I have absolutely no problem with LGBT people forming there own group and attending matches together as a sort of social thing nor I think does anyone else. But there seems to be suggestions from some people that if you are gay you might be reluctant to attend a game at STFC this is obvious nonsense as how on earth is anyone at a match going to know you sexuality anyway. Possibly a problem for a not paticularly convincing transsexual but surely not for anyone else. I have not heard any homophobic abuse at a match for decades. There's five pages of posts and explanations. I'm not going to waste my time further if you can't be bothered to read even the last one. I can absolutely assure you the last thing it is is 'nonsense'.
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