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Post by Chief Inspector Swan on Feb 9, 2019 10:32:53 GMT 1
Great idea this. Am a member of several LGBTQ groups as an ally and they are a tremendous force for good.
Sad to see the fundamental lack of empathy from some, will refrain from saying what I think as don’t want to detract from an important topic/thread.
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Post by MartinB on Feb 9, 2019 10:41:29 GMT 1
I find this a really interesting thread. It does show how far we have come as a Society. Nobody would have dreamed about starting a thread like this fifteen years ago because of the abuse they would have received from a high number of people.
With my job I do an awful lot around inclusion. I really look forward to the day when people don't feel they need to have separate groups which ends up giving them a label them. What I have liked on this thread is the fact as a group we don't care anything about a person other than the fact they are a Town fan, that to me shows we are going along way to be inclusive.
Sadly nobody can tell me football overall is totally inclusive and the issue that is trailing so far behind everything else is homophobia. Just taking the top 92 teams in the Country means over 2300 players at any one time. It is statstically impossible that all those men are hetrosexual. Yet no player this Century has felt comfortable to be seen out with a partner of the same sex. With the womens game most people assume all the players are gay, that again isn't right.
I wish you good luck with the group and I really look forward to the day when it isn't needed because truly the only thing that matters about people is are they are a nice person or not.
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Post by Northwest Shrew on Feb 9, 2019 10:42:29 GMT 1
I can see your points, and agree that nobody should feel they can’t attend a match for any reason. But I can definitely say I’ve heard, “You ginger t**t” or “you fat t**t” much much more than I’ve heard “you gay t**t” and there’s no groups for ginger fans, who again, have no choice in being ginger. Unfortunately life ain’t all sweetness and light, and I defy anyone to say they haven’t had the p**s taken out of them for some reason, glasses, big nose, smelly ect
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Post by pughywasfree on Feb 9, 2019 10:44:27 GMT 1
As I've said before, it's also about having a visible presence so that fans who do feel alienated on grounds of their sexuality, or simply being different. Unless you've felt that way, you can't know what that's like, but if something like this helps even a handful of fans over the years, then it's a good legacy I would say. There is is again "simply being different" When people stop classing LGBT people as different they will stop being seen as different and just seen as people. Stop with the then and us mentality. By doing such you are hindering your own intentions. Which would be better, 2 blocks of Shrewsbury town fans or 1 block of "normal" fans and another designated for LGBT people with a few rainbow flags on it? No football fan should be abused about anything whilst at the ground. If they are the club should deal with it quickly and effectively. If they don't then things need to change.
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Post by vixenshrew on Feb 9, 2019 10:47:26 GMT 1
As already mentioned, a few of the responses on here demonstrate why it is necessary. Perhaps Why is that? Just because some have entered the debate and asked questions doesn't mean they are against what Mr Brightside is wanting to do. It could be said the lack of responses demonstrate why.
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Post by pughywasfree on Feb 9, 2019 10:47:44 GMT 1
I can see your points, and agree that nobody should feel they can’t attend a match for any reason. But I can definitely say I’ve heard, “You ginger t**t” or “you fat t**t” much much more than I’ve heard “you gay t**t” and there’s no groups for ginger fans, who again, have no choice in being ginger. Unfortunately life ain’t all sweetness and light, and I defy anyone to say they haven’t had the p**s taken out of them for some reason, glasses, big nose, smelly ect OI You leave JT out of this.
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Post by gainsparkshrew on Feb 9, 2019 10:48:27 GMT 1
As I've said before, it's also about having a visible presence so that fans who do feel alienated on grounds of their sexuality, or simply being different. Unless you've felt that way, you can't know what that's like, but if something like this helps even a handful of fans over the years, then it's a good legacy I would say. There is is again "simply being different" When people stop classing LGBT people as different they will stop being seen as different and just seen as people. Stop with the then and us mentality. By doing such you are hindering your own intentions. Which would be better, 2 blocks of Shrewsbury town fans or 1 block of "normal" fans and another designated for LGBT people with a few rainbow flags on it? No football fan should be abused about anything whilst at the ground. If they are the club should deal with it quickly and effectively. If they don't then things need to change. Excellent post, my thoughts in a nutshell
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Post by MartinB on Feb 9, 2019 10:54:21 GMT 1
As I've said before, it's also about having a visible presence so that fans who do feel alienated on grounds of their sexuality, or simply being different. Unless you've felt that way, you can't know what that's like, but if something like this helps even a handful of fans over the years, then it's a good legacy I would say. No football fan should be abused about anything whilst at the ground. If they are the club should deal with it quickly and effectively. If they don't then things need to change. Totally disagree with that statement.
Rexham fans should be abused for being so stupid to support that team.
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Post by vixenshrew on Feb 9, 2019 11:08:32 GMT 1
Have you ever been abused or made to feel uncomfortable for your sexuality either at the ground or on here? Yes. Not at our home ground but at several places as an away fan - that doesn't mean that we should just ignore the issues because they happen elsewhere. And to answer your question, yes on here all the time - especially with some of the moronic posters and their archaic responses. I'm pretty thick skinned and big enough and ugly enough to look out for myself and not have most things bother me - but how would it feel for a 15yr old me, or a 21yr old me I ask myself, when you don't have the confidence and life experience that age gives. It took me until I was in my twenties to go back to football after being put off in my early teens. So yes, I have had both physical and verbal abuse relating to my sexuality and as a result even 'banter' after that can make you feel uncomfortable. It's not something you can really grasp how it can affect someone mentally until it's happened to you. I get what you are saying and yes you have to be thick skinned reading posts ( as do us women supporters) but compared to other fan boards blue and amber is mild and the monitors do regulate it and there is the option to report a post if it is causing offence. Football as you know gets fans in a frenzy sometimes and to let off steam words are written that they may not even think of using out in the real world. Debates like this may make the heterosexual male think twice in future.
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Post by Mr Brightside on Feb 9, 2019 11:28:37 GMT 1
Questions for the O/P just to clarify. What are you trying to achieve with this group? Do the club sign up to a charter and if so what are they commiting to? If I were to attend a match at one of the clubs that you have listed in your original post what would I see, or hear, that's different to the MWM? BTW Good Luck with the idea What are we trying to achieve?
It's hard to pin down long term goals as it's just me at the moment! It would depend on a consensus of members, but some groups simply have a strong social element, others are primarily campaigning bodies (not something that I feel is immediately necessary for Town), some make links with other similar groups for attending away games to build inter-club relations, and where some memberships want to meet on a regular basis, others just want to be informed of how LGBT inclusion is being progressed and how prejudice is being challenged at their club. No two groups are the same. What are the club committing to?
We're not demanding anything of or from the club. Ideally we would love to have their support and be recognised as a supporters network or group officially. If the club aren't interested in this, the fans group will still continue, albeit unofficially and not affiliated directly with Shrewsbury Town Football Club. Other than that, we're asking the club to continue to work with industry and charitable partners to challenge all sorts of discrimination, encourage inclusive practices and campaign for positive change at a local and national level. What would you see or hear different at the MWM?
Essentially, nothing. The idea of this isn't asking people to identify themselves so we can all sit together in rainbow colours with glitter and sequins like some kind of weird Shrewsbury Town Pride event. The people we're opening up to already exist within the STFC crowd and/or community. This is about giving those people who happen to be LGBT or support those who are an opportunity to share their support and love for Shrewsbury Town, and if needed give a recognised voice, and is just about making it easier and more enjoyable generally for LGBT fans to support their team, home and away.
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Post by Pilch on Feb 9, 2019 11:41:53 GMT 1
I can see your points, and agree that nobody should feel they can’t attend a match for any reason. But I can definitely say I’ve heard, “You ginger t**t” or “you fat t**t” much much more than I’ve heard “you gay t**t” and there’s no groups for ginger fans, who again, have no choice in being ginger. Unfortunately life ain’t all sweetness and light, and I defy anyone to say they haven’t had the p**s taken out of them for some reason, glasses, big nose, smelly ect are there any groups for fat fans ? do you have to be fat or could I join too ? ;-) what about fat ginger gay fans ?
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Post by Mr Brightside on Feb 9, 2019 12:12:09 GMT 1
Yes. Not at our home ground but at several places as an away fan - that doesn't mean that we should just ignore the issues because they happen elsewhere. And to answer your question, yes on here all the time - especially with some of the moronic posters and their archaic responses. I'm pretty thick skinned and big enough and ugly enough to look out for myself and not have most things bother me - but how would it feel for a 15yr old me, or a 21yr old me I ask myself, when you don't have the confidence and life experience that age gives. It took me until I was in my twenties to go back to football after being put off in my early teens. So yes, I have had both physical and verbal abuse relating to my sexuality and as a result even 'banter' after that can make you feel uncomfortable. It's not something you can really grasp how it can affect someone mentally until it's happened to you. Fair enough sorry you went through that. All types of physical and mental abuse is wrong and should be stamped out. May I ask what you did about the people that attacked your because of your sexuality? As a youngster, nothing. I felt ashamed and isolated and just sat on my fears and feelings for longer than is really healthy. It wasn't until I went to University as a mature student that I really started to understand properly who I was and that what had gone on in the past was really not acceptable. I joined the Gay Football Supporters Network at that point (who are the sort of national version of a clubs LGBT group or network and have been around since 1989) and started to be able to relax around people again and start enjoying my football once more. It's also thanks to my friend Iain who dragged me back into football, introducing me to Gay Meadow and the Wakeman End in 2005 and that's when my love of Town began. Ultimately I don't want young people who are discovering themselves and the world out there these days to go through what I went through, not only in terms of abuse but in terms of feeling alone and isolated and having nowhere to turn. Proud Salopians (a working title) essentially aims to be a friendly, welcoming and inclusive Shrewsbury Town Football Club fan group from the LGBT community for everyone. We want to help make Montgomery Waters Meadow and Football in general inclusive spaces where everyone feels safe to be themselves.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 9, 2019 13:28:46 GMT 1
I can see your points, and agree that nobody should feel they can’t attend a match for any reason. But I can definitely say I’ve heard, “You ginger t**t” or “you fat t**t” much much more than I’ve heard “you gay t**t” and there’s no groups for ginger fans, who again, have no choice in being ginger. Unfortunately life ain’t all sweetness and light, and I defy anyone to say they haven’t had the p**s taken out of them for some reason, glasses, big nose, smelly ect It's not just about life being unfair though. It's about breaking down the culture that enables "unfairness" to be carried forward into discrimination and prejudice. Yes, there are laws against it. There are laws against all sorts of things that still go on. The day an openly trans person can unselfconsciously join in that banter (and hopefully raise the level of wit!) in block 19 without anyone there or in the away end targeting them ……. the day a player can marry his same sex partner and not be targeted for abuse from anyone in the stands ……… then I'll agree that we probably don't need LGBTQ supporters' groups to help everyone feel included.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Feb 9, 2019 13:47:01 GMT 1
I can see your points, and agree that nobody should feel they can’t attend a match for any reason. But I can definitely say I’ve heard, “You ginger t**t” or “you fat t**t” much much more than I’ve heard “you gay t**t” and there’s no groups for ginger fans, who again, have no choice in being ginger. Unfortunately life ain’t all sweetness and light, and I defy anyone to say they haven’t had the p**s taken out of them for some reason, glasses, big nose, smelly ect It's not just about life being unfair though. It's about breaking down the culture that enables "unfairness" to be carried forward into discrimination and prejudice. Yes, there are laws against it. There are laws against all sorts of things that still go on. The day an openly trans person can unselfconsciously join in that banter (and hopefully raise the level of wit!) in block 19 without anyone there or in the away end targeting them ……. the day a player can marry his same sex partner and not be targeted for abuse from anyone in the stands ……… then I'll agree that we probably don't need LGBTQ supporters' groups to help everyone feel included. i agree
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Post by Northwest Shrew on Feb 9, 2019 14:16:42 GMT 1
Had a transgender person been into block 19? Maybe they have.. and what abuse would you expect them to get if they did.? I doubt any? It’s like you think there’s a problem.. but is there really?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 14:51:11 GMT 1
For all supporters, Shrewsbury Town FC should be an all inclusive football club. Not one of our supporters should feel ostracised because of their race, sexuality, disability etc.
I feel far from comfortable thinking that fellow supporters cannot come to games because they feel unwelcome. No one in this day and age should be excluded from enjoying the match day experience.
If an LGBTQ supporters group is one way of making our club truly all inclusive then that's a thumbs up from me.
I wish you good luck with the group and what you are aiming to achieve.
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Post by pughywasfree on Feb 9, 2019 14:56:54 GMT 1
For all supporters, Shrewsbury Town FC should be an all inclusive football club. Not one of our supporters should feel ostracised because of their race, sexuality, disability etc. I feel far from comfortable thinking that fellow supporters cannot come to games because they feel unwelcome, that they cannot enjoy the match day experience for one reason or another. If an LGBTQ supporters group is the way forward in making our club truly all inclusive then that's a thumbs up from me. I wish you good luck with the group. I'm yet to see proof their is an issue.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 15:00:33 GMT 1
For all supporters, Shrewsbury Town FC should be an all inclusive football club. Not one of our supporters should feel ostracised because of their race, sexuality, disability etc. I feel far from comfortable thinking that fellow supporters cannot come to games because they feel unwelcome, that they cannot enjoy the match day experience for one reason or another. If an LGBTQ supporters group is the way forward in making our club truly all inclusive then that's a thumbs up from me. I wish you good luck with the group. I'm yet to see proof their is an issue. Perhaps not for you personally no.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 15:01:49 GMT 1
For all supporters, Shrewsbury Town FC should be an all inclusive football club. Not one of our supporters should feel ostracised because of their race, sexuality, disability etc. I feel far from comfortable thinking that fellow supporters cannot come to games because they feel unwelcome, that they cannot enjoy the match day experience for one reason or another. If an LGBTQ supporters group is the way forward in making our club truly all inclusive then that's a thumbs up from me. I wish you good luck with the group. I'm yet to see proof their is an issue. The fact you need proof despite the support and stories shared on here suggests there is an issue in your own understanding.
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Post by gainsparkshrew on Feb 9, 2019 15:08:12 GMT 1
Questions for the O/P just to clarify. What are you trying to achieve with this group? Do the club sign up to a charter and if so what are they commiting to? If I were to attend a match at one of the clubs that you have listed in your original post what would I see, or hear, that's different to the MWM? BTW Good Luck with the idea What are we trying to achieve?
It's hard to pin down long term goals as it's just me at the moment! It would depend on a consensus of members, but some groups simply have a strong social element, others are primarily campaigning bodies (not something that I feel is immediately necessary for Town), some make links with other similar groups for attending away games to build inter-club relations, and where some memberships want to meet on a regular basis, others just want to be informed of how LGBT inclusion is being progressed and how prejudice is being challenged at their club. No two groups are the same. What are the club committing to?
We're not demanding anything of or from the club. Ideally we would love to have their support and be recognised as a supporters network or group officially. If the club aren't interested in this, the fans group will still continue, albeit unofficially and not affiliated directly with Shrewsbury Town Football Club. Other than that, we're asking the club to continue to work with industry and charitable partners to challenge all sorts of discrimination, encourage inclusive practices and campaign for positive change at a local and national level. What would you see or hear different at the MWM?
Essentially, nothing. The idea of this isn't asking people to identify themselves so we can all sit together in rainbow colours with glitter and sequins like some kind of weird Shrewsbury Town Pride event. The people we're opening up to already exist within the STFC crowd and/or community. This is about giving those people who happen to be LGBT or support those who are an opportunity to share their support and love for Shrewsbury Town, and if needed give a recognised voice, and is just about making it easier and more enjoyable generally for LGBT fans to support their team, home and away. Thanks for taking the trouble to reply and good luck. I can't think of one reason why the club can't,or haven't,move forward with this.
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Post by Northwest Shrew on Feb 9, 2019 15:15:52 GMT 1
I'm yet to see proof their is an issue. The fact you need proof despite the support and stories shared on here suggests there is an issue in your own understanding. There ain’t much proof to be fair.. no instances of anyone being abused at a salop match or on blue and amber for being homosexual. Some people saying they feel there shouldn’t be anyone who feels intimidated to go to a salop match.... - but no examples of people who feel like that...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 15:26:45 GMT 1
Some on this board want proof....are the stories, the experiences so far expressed by fellow supporters on this board not good enough?
For goodness sake this isn't a court of law.
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Post by Northwest Shrew on Feb 9, 2019 15:32:38 GMT 1
Some on this board want proof....are the stories, the experiences so far expressed by fellow supporters on this board not good enough? For goodness sake this isn't a court of law. Sorry mate, but unless I’ve missed something, seems like the feelings expressed are nothing to do with football and more to do with coming out as gay in society
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Post by pughywasfree on Feb 9, 2019 15:44:57 GMT 1
I'm yet to see proof their is an issue. The fact you need proof despite the support and stories shared on here suggests there is an issue in your own understanding. 1 person has said they had an issue years ago, other than that nobody has given an example or back up the idea that Shrewsbury town football club is an unwelcoming place.
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Post by pughywasfree on Feb 9, 2019 15:47:37 GMT 1
Some on this board want proof....are the stories, the experiences so far expressed by fellow supporters on this board not good enough? For goodness sake this isn't a court of law. 15 years I have regularly followed Salop. I have never seen or heard of any abuse because of someone's sexual orientation. That is why I will need more than one person feeling a certain way 20+ years ago to make me think this is such an issue we need a visual demonstration to combat the issue.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 9, 2019 15:55:20 GMT 1
15 years I have regularly followed Salop. I have never seen or heard of any abuse because of someone's sexual orientation. That is why I will need more than one person feeling a certain way 20+ years ago to make me think this is such an issue we need a visual demonstration to combat the issue.
Can't they just put out a few feelers to see if there is any interest?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 15:57:36 GMT 1
15 years I have regularly followed Salop. I have never seen or heard of any abuse because of someone's sexual orientation. That is why I will need more than one person feeling a certain way 20+ years ago to make me think this is such an issue we need a visual demonstration to combat the issue.
Can't they just put out a few feelers to see if there is any interest?
That's what this is.... and there is.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 9, 2019 16:00:13 GMT 1
Can't they just put out a few feelers to see if there is any interest?
That's what this is.... and there is.
Exactly.
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crayfish
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Post by crayfish on Feb 9, 2019 16:19:29 GMT 1
It seems to me to be an excercise in setting up a group to solve a problem that does not exist at STFC for no real reason at all.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 16:23:00 GMT 1
It seems to me to be an excercise in setting up a group to solve a problem that does not exist at STFC for no real reason at all. Why does it need to solve a problem? Why can't it be a group of likeminded supporters who can help to open the door for more. It's about inclusivity, raising awareness, helping to tackle mental health problems that are so intrinsically linked to the LGBTQ+ community. And how do you know there aren't young people out there who love Town, but don't feel, for whatever reason, that they can go to the game alone, or with a partner, or don't play football for fear of being judged on who they are not how they play. There are SO many reasons that some of you just can't / won't be able to see or understand. Does the fact so many other clubs have a group like this not suggest that it's relevant?
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