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Post by pughywasfree on Feb 9, 2019 0:34:06 GMT 1
I just don't understand why LGBTQ people feel the need to out themselves as such.
How can your choices and preferences be treated as normal when you don't?
The way I see it is a person is a person, it has no impact on me an individuals sexual preferences. If your a nice person, I'll think your a nice person. If your a dick, ill think your a dick.
By having groups etc it creates an us and them mentality.
As for homophobic chants at the football, I can't say I can recall many at all. Its not a very good insult! We much prefer telling someone that they shop at matalan and Jeremy Kyle is coming for them!
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Post by pughywasfree on Feb 9, 2019 0:35:20 GMT 1
Straight fans like me aren't usually targeted by homophobic 'banter'. It's really not hard to work out why we need groups like this. Nor are 'builders' and 'bankers'. Think some are missing the point why the guys are starting this. It's really not hard to understand it if you think for a split second. Good luck to them. Have you just assumed their gender? Disgraceful
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Post by Mortgagehound on Feb 9, 2019 0:36:37 GMT 1
This thread isn’t going to end well me thinks
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Post by champagneprince on Feb 9, 2019 0:40:27 GMT 1
All fair enough JT but it can surely be argued there is a reason? How many openly gay players do we know play professionally?
Dunno. It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. I'm not interested, they're just footballers. Do you check? How many black players do we have in our team? Dunno. It's none of my business. If Mr Brightside moved in next door to me, and said "fancy a drink Juan night", I'm sure I'd be pleased to go with him.
But it is relevant if people are put off attending games or wanting to play football just because of their sexuality. Nobody should have to 'come out and declare' their sexuality because (and you're right), it's got stuff all to do with anyone else. But it's not just about declaring your sexuality. It's about the every day things that we as heterosexuals take for granted i.e you often talk affectionately about your wife. You feel comfortable doing that, it's no big deal to you, because you know that people won't treat you differently because of it. However, I've never seen a post on here from a male talking affectionately about their boyfriend. Likewise, when you see photographs in newspapers/magazines of footballers with their loved ones, you never see a loving male/male relationship. What does this tell young kids who want to play football or anybody wanting to attend games? I think it says if you're gay then you may well be treated differently in your profession as a footballer or as a fan just watching the game as a spectator.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Feb 9, 2019 0:41:35 GMT 1
Dunno. It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. I'm not interested, they're just footballers. Do you check? How many black players do we have in our team? Dunno. It's none of my business. If Mr Brightside moved in next door to me, and said "fancy a drink Juan night", I'm sure I'd be pleased to go with him.
You wouldn't. I'm a right tit.
Ahh......I didn't realise that, in that case, I withdraw my offer......
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Post by pughywasfree on Feb 9, 2019 0:43:28 GMT 1
Dunno. It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. I'm not interested, they're just footballers. Do you check? How many black players do we have in our team? Dunno. It's none of my business. If Mr Brightside moved in next door to me, and said "fancy a drink Juan night", I'm sure I'd be pleased to go with him.
But it is relevant if people are put off attending games or wanting to play football just because of their sexuality. Nobody should have to 'come out and declare' their sexuality because (and you're right), it's got stuff all to do with anyone else. But it's not just about declaring your sexuality. It's about the every day things that we as heterosexuals take for granted i.e you often talk affectionately about your wife. You feel comfortable doing that, it's no big deal to you, because you know that people won't treat you differently because of it. However, I've never seen a post on here from a male talking affectionately about their boyfriend. Likewise, when you see photographs in newspapers/magazines of footballers with their loved ones, you never see a loving male/male relationship. What does this tell young kids who want to play football or anybody wanting to attend games? I think it says if you're gay then you may well be treated differently in your profession as a footballer or as a fan just watching the game as a spectator. Can you explain why for example a gay man would not feel comfortable coming to watch a football match? I genuinely don't get it.
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Post by champagneprince on Feb 9, 2019 0:54:10 GMT 1
I just don't understand why LGBTQ people feel the need to out themselves as such. How can your choices and preferences be treated as normal when you don't? The way I see it is a person is a person, it has no impact on me an individuals sexual preferences. If your a nice person, I'll think your a nice person. If your a dick, ill think your a dick. By having groups etc it creates an us and them mentality. As for homophobic chants at the football, I can't say I can recall many at all. Its not a very good insult! We much prefer telling someone that they shop at matalan and Jeremy Kyle is coming for them! Not sure what the stats say about groups creating an us and them mentality. You could well be right, but equally you could well be way off the mark. It 'seems' to me that if you promote something positively and make it more familiar then it becomes more positive and familiar. It's how you do that which is key. In this case, it's trying something different, because what has been tried in the past doesn't appear to have worked i.e LGBTQ people still feel excluded at football in the year 2019. I agree that I've not heard any homophobic chants at football, well not for years. I did in the 80's but can't say I've heard anything in the new ground.
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Post by champagneprince on Feb 9, 2019 1:02:58 GMT 1
But it is relevant if people are put off attending games or wanting to play football just because of their sexuality. Nobody should have to 'come out and declare' their sexuality because (and you're right), it's got stuff all to do with anyone else. But it's not just about declaring your sexuality. It's about the every day things that we as heterosexuals take for granted i.e you often talk affectionately about your wife. You feel comfortable doing that, it's no big deal to you, because you know that people won't treat you differently because of it. However, I've never seen a post on here from a male talking affectionately about their boyfriend. Likewise, when you see photographs in newspapers/magazines of footballers with their loved ones, you never see a loving male/male relationship. What does this tell young kids who want to play football or anybody wanting to attend games? I think it says if you're gay then you may well be treated differently in your profession as a footballer or as a fan just watching the game as a spectator. Can you explain why for example a gay man would not feel comfortable coming to watch a football match? I genuinely don't get it. I felt like you, until I read the opening post And yet little has been done to curb the regular homophobic abuse heard in English and Welsh Football stadia, or for that matter to make home LGBT supporters feel welcome. As an openly gay man, who is a huge football fan and Shrewsbury Town supporter this bothers me.
Maybe I'm interpreting that wrong but the gist of the opening post appears to be that LGBT supporters don't feel welcome at football grounds. Maybe there is stuff that you or I just don't hear or experience because we're not gay. If we were then maybe we'd see it differently.
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Post by pughywasfree on Feb 9, 2019 1:06:02 GMT 1
I just don't understand why LGBTQ people feel the need to out themselves as such. How can your choices and preferences be treated as normal when you don't? The way I see it is a person is a person, it has no impact on me an individuals sexual preferences. If your a nice person, I'll think your a nice person. If your a dick, ill think your a dick. By having groups etc it creates an us and them mentality. As for homophobic chants at the football, I can't say I can recall many at all. Its not a very good insult! We much prefer telling someone that they shop at matalan and Jeremy Kyle is coming for them! Not sure what the stats say about groups creating an us and them mentality. You could well be right, but equally you could well be way off the mark. It 'seems' to me that if you promote something positively and make it more familiar then it becomes more positive and familiar. It's how you do that which is key. In this case, it's trying something different, because what has been tried in the past doesn't appear to have worked i.e LGBTQ people still feel excluded at football in the year 2019. I agree that I've not heard any homophobic chants at football, well not for years. I did in the 80's but can't say I've heard anything in the new ground. I can't say I know many football fans that are not heterosexual. I don't know if that's because it's not something we talk about at the football (nor is heterosexuality). So I don't know if your statement is true about them feeling excluded. I'll tell you one thing, come match day every person in the home end is in my team. As a fan base we are together supporting our team. A person's sexuality does not come into it in the slightest. I don't understand how any other fan can feel any different. I dont see why it has to be made an issue of. The only characteristic that matters is that we are town fans.
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Post by Mr Brightside on Feb 9, 2019 1:07:47 GMT 1
Lots of good statements here. But a lot of idealism too. I wish it were that straightforward, I really do
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Post by pughywasfree on Feb 9, 2019 1:10:15 GMT 1
Can you explain why for example a gay man would not feel comfortable coming to watch a football match? I genuinely don't get it. I felt like you, until I read the opening post And yet little has been done to curb the regular homophobic abuse heard in English and Welsh Football stadia, or for that matter to make home LGBT supporters feel welcome. As an openly gay man, who is a huge football fan and Shrewsbury Town supporter this bothers me.
Maybe I'm interpreting that wrong but the gist of the opening post appears to be that LGBT supporters don't feel welcome at football grounds. Maybe there is stuff that you or I just don't hear or experience because we're not gay. If we were then maybe we'd see it differently. We have both stated that we have not heard homophobic chants so regularly is a big exaggeration imo. Do you feel welcomed because you are straight? There is no need for extra welcoming because of a person's sexuality. As mentioned we are all town fans. Blue and amber are our colours not the rainbow, not white nor black! I don't understand why anyone would feel excluded.
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Post by pughywasfree on Feb 9, 2019 1:11:40 GMT 1
Lots of good statements here. But a lot of idealism too. I wish it were that straightforward, I really do Have you ever been abused or made to feel uncomfortable for your sexuality either at the ground or on here?
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Post by champagneprince on Feb 9, 2019 1:15:28 GMT 1
Not sure what the stats say about groups creating an us and them mentality. You could well be right, but equally you could well be way off the mark. It 'seems' to me that if you promote something positively and make it more familiar then it becomes more positive and familiar. It's how you do that which is key. In this case, it's trying something different, because what has been tried in the past doesn't appear to have worked i.e LGBTQ people still feel excluded at football in the year 2019. I agree that I've not heard any homophobic chants at football, well not for years. I did in the 80's but can't say I've heard anything in the new ground. I can't say I know many football fans that are not heterosexual. I don't know if that's because it's not something we talk about at the football (nor is heterosexuality). So I don't know if your statement is true about them feeling excluded. I'll tell you one thing, come match day every person in the home end is in my team. As a fan base we are together supporting our team. A person's sexuality does not come into it in the slightest. I don't understand how any other fan can feel any different. I dont see why it has to be made an issue of. The only characteristic that matters is that we are town fans. I agree, but maybe because we're not LGBTQ then we feel confident that we're not going to face the same issues that a LGBTQ person might. As far as I can see, it should be made an issue because everyone should 'feel' welcome and quite clearly (from the opening post) it appears this isn't the case.
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Post by champagneprince on Feb 9, 2019 1:19:13 GMT 1
Lots of good statements here. But a lot of idealism too. I wish it were that straightforward, I really do Have you ever been abused or made to feel uncomfortable for your sexuality either at the ground or on here? It's a fair question to ask and maybe some examples of what's been experienced could be quite enlightening.
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Post by Mr Brightside on Feb 9, 2019 1:27:29 GMT 1
Lots of good statements here. But a lot of idealism too. I wish it were that straightforward, I really do Have you ever been abused or made to feel uncomfortable for your sexuality either at the ground or on here? Yes. Not at our home ground but at several places as an away fan - that doesn't mean that we should just ignore the issues because they happen elsewhere. And to answer your question, yes on here all the time - especially with some of the moronic posters and their archaic responses. I'm pretty thick skinned and big enough and ugly enough to look out for myself and not have most things bother me - but how would it feel for a 15yr old me, or a 21yr old me I ask myself, when you don't have the confidence and life experience that age gives. It me until I was in my twenties to go back to football after being put off in my early teens. So yes, I have had both physical and verbal abuse relating to my sexuality and as a result even 'banter' after that can make you feel uncomfortable. It's not something you can really grasp how it can affect someone mentally until it's happened to you.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 6:16:03 GMT 1
Have you ever been abused or made to feel uncomfortable for your sexuality either at the ground or on here? Yes. Not at our home ground but at several places as an away fan - that doesn't mean that we should just ignore the issues because they happen elsewhere. And to answer your question, yes on here all the time - especially with some of the moronic posters and their archaic responses. I'm pretty thick skinned and big enough and ugly enough to look out for myself and not have most things bother me - but how would it feel for a 15yr old me, or a 21yr old me I ask myself, when you don't have the confidence and life experience that age gives. It me until I was in my twenties to go back to football after being put off in my early teens. So yes, I have had both physical and verbal abuse relating to my sexuality and as a result even 'banter' after that can make you feel uncomfortable. It's not something you can really grasp how it can affect someone mentally until it's happened to you. Spot on. These are the points some people are missing.
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Post by shrewder on Feb 9, 2019 7:55:43 GMT 1
I will probably be shot down in flames but with so many non pure football threads on here these days, is there an argument for having two different sections on this board. Other boards do something similar.
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Post by Pilch on Feb 9, 2019 8:19:06 GMT 1
I will probably be shot down in flames but with so many non pure football threads on here these days, is there an argument for having two different sections on this board. Other boards do something similar. we're not other boards, we are b&a its always been this way we'll we have tried other things but they never work not only can you read the thread title but you can hover over it and read the first few lines its easy to ignore something not of interest every now and then someone feels the need to needlessly post on a thread just to say its boring etc other than that its works just fine
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Post by shrewder on Feb 9, 2019 8:35:29 GMT 1
I will probably be shot down in flames but with so many non pure football threads on here these days, is there an argument for having two different sections on this board. Other boards do something similar. we're not other boards, we are b&a its always been this way we'll we have tried other things but they never work not only can you read the thread title but you can hover over it and read the first few lines its easy to ignore something not of interest every now and then someone feels the need to needlessly post on a thread just to say its boring etc other than that its works just fine Ok I will get my coat.🤡
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Post by Northwest Shrew on Feb 9, 2019 8:41:48 GMT 1
Have you ever been abused or made to feel uncomfortable for your sexuality either at the ground or on here? Yes. Not at our home ground but at several places as an away fan - that doesn't mean that we should just ignore the issues because they happen elsewhere. And to answer your question, yes on here all the time - especially with some of the moronic posters and their archaic responses. I'm pretty thick skinned and big enough and ugly enough to look out for myself and not have most things bother me - but how would it feel for a 15yr old me, or a 21yr old me I ask myself, when you don't have the confidence and life experience that age gives. It me until I was in my twenties to go back to football after being put off in my early teens. So yes, I have had both physical and verbal abuse relating to my sexuality and as a result even 'banter' after that can make you feel uncomfortable. It's not something you can really grasp how it can affect someone mentally until it's happened to you. I think people are struggling to understand, myself included. The only references to homosexuality I’ve witnessed at football are “Brighton fans are homosexual” or “ ***name of a player*** takes it up the arse”. And I’ve not heard these chants for probably 20 years. And I also can’t remember any homosexual “banter” on blue and amber, - I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, as it’s not the kinda thing I look out for, but I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be tolerated?
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Post by Mortgagehound on Feb 9, 2019 8:59:34 GMT 1
Yes. Not at our home ground but at several places as an away fan - that doesn't mean that we should just ignore the issues because they happen elsewhere. And to answer your question, yes on here all the time - especially with some of the moronic posters and their archaic responses. I'm pretty thick skinned and big enough and ugly enough to look out for myself and not have most things bother me - but how would it feel for a 15yr old me, or a 21yr old me I ask myself, when you don't have the confidence and life experience that age gives. It me until I was in my twenties to go back to football after being put off in my early teens. So yes, I have had both physical and verbal abuse relating to my sexuality and as a result even 'banter' after that can make you feel uncomfortable. It's not something you can really grasp how it can affect someone mentally until it's happened to you. I think people are struggling to understand, myself included. The only references to homosexuality I’ve witnessed at football are “Brighton fans are homosexual” or “ ***name of a player*** takes it up the arse”. And I’ve not heard these chants for probably 20 years. And I also can’t remember any homosexual “banter” on blue and amber, - I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, as it’s not the kinda thing I look out for, but I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be tolerated? Agreed.
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Post by Mortgagehound on Feb 9, 2019 9:00:50 GMT 1
Have I missed something? What’s been edited?
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Post by ssshrew on Feb 9, 2019 9:04:38 GMT 1
The title of the thread.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Feb 9, 2019 9:45:41 GMT 1
I suspect the vast majority of people, looking to this thread, are very much of the mind of live and let live. B&A is that kind of place. Just as it should be. So I really don't understand why anyone should be concerned or against like minded Town fans coming together who feel such a group would benefit them. If it does then good luck to 'em. Really don't understand the fuss to be honest...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 9:54:43 GMT 1
As I've said before, it's also about having a visible presence so that fans who do feel alienated on grounds of their sexuality, or simply being different. Unless you've felt that way, you can't know what that's like, but if something like this helps even a handful of fans over the years, then it's a good legacy I would say.
it isn't about outing anyone / yourself, it isn't about telling everyone who you sleep with, it isn't about banging on about it, it's about supporting our football team, together, inclusively. I know a lot of people on here are well rounded, live and let live (like Stutty says), but that just isn't the reality everywhere else, necessarily. Ask yourself why so many other teams already have these groups - they are needed, they are wanted and they are accepted and welcomed.
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Post by ssshrew on Feb 9, 2019 10:01:24 GMT 1
I suspect the vast majority of people, looking to this thread, are very much of the mind of live and let live. B&A is that kind of place. Just as it should be. So I really don't understand why anyone should be concerned or against like minded Town fans coming together who feel such a group would benefit them. If it does then good luck to 'em. Really don't understand the fuss to be honest... Excellent post. Sums up my thoughts completely. Thank you.
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Post by northwestman on Feb 9, 2019 10:03:08 GMT 1
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Post by blueboy62 on Feb 9, 2019 10:17:07 GMT 1
There's a saying; "Justice must not only be done but should be seen to be done".
In this instance it is equality and tolerance that should be seen to be done.
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Post by pughywasfree on Feb 9, 2019 10:30:03 GMT 1
Have you ever been abused or made to feel uncomfortable for your sexuality either at the ground or on here? Yes. Not at our home ground but at several places as an away fan - that doesn't mean that we should just ignore the issues because they happen elsewhere. And to answer your question, yes on here all the time - especially with some of the moronic posters and their archaic responses. I'm pretty thick skinned and big enough and ugly enough to look out for myself and not have most things bother me - but how would it feel for a 15yr old me, or a 21yr old me I ask myself, when you don't have the confidence and life experience that age gives. It me until I was in my twenties to go back to football after being put off in my early teens. So yes, I have had both physical and verbal abuse relating to my sexuality and as a result even 'banter' after that can make you feel uncomfortable. It's not something you can really grasp how it can affect someone mentally until it's happened to you. Fair enough sorry you went through that. All types of physical and mental abuse is wrong and should be stamped out. May I ask what you did about the people that attacked your because of your sexuality?
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Post by gainsparkshrew on Feb 9, 2019 10:31:37 GMT 1
Questions for the O/P just to clarify.
What are you trying to achieve with this group? Do the club sign up to a charter and if so what are they commiting to? If I were to attend a match at one of the clubs that you have listed in your original post what would I see, or hear, that's different to the MWM?
BTW Good Luck with the idea
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