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Post by salop27 on Dec 2, 2018 12:13:33 GMT 1
Oh dear. 217 000 new houses last year, still not enough to house last year's increase in immigration numbers never mind the last 20 years!! But the problem is just caused by a small increase in stv properties? Why is renting so high? Simple supply and demand. It's not a right wing conspiracy it's simple economics, something any left wingers obviously don't understand 😂
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2018 12:42:55 GMT 1
It seems strange that we are now allowing more non-EU migrants into the country and this more than off sets the decrease in EU migrants
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Post by mattmw on Dec 2, 2018 13:29:43 GMT 1
Oh dear. 217 000 new houses last year, still not enough to house last year's increase in immigration numbers never mind the last 20 years!! But the problem is just caused by a small increase in stv properties? Why is renting so high? Simple supply and demand. It's not a right wing conspiracy it's simple economics, something any left wingers obviously don't understand 😂 The UK housing market is a complex one but it is really too simplistic to say the housing crisis in the UK is caused by immigration. Report below suggests that net migration will only contribute about 30% of the demand for housing over the next 30 years. assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/710382/Dwelling_Stock_Estimates_2017_England.pdfOther factors in the housing issue is the decline in new housing - in 1980 250,000 homes were built each year; now its around 150,000 a year; another big factor is the increase in single occupancy properties which now make up about 30% of the total compared to 20% in the 80s. The average age of occupancy is also increasing suggesting that the aging population is also a factor. Reducing immigration could help the availability of housing, but that has to be weighed against the economic impact of reduced immigration which the UK and other western countries rely on to support economic growth. Lack of economic growth hits house building numbers and house prices so its a fine balancing act to get the numbers right. The other option is for the state to build and own more housing, but has also declined in the last 30 years with the vast majority of new housing being built by the private sector.
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Post by venceremos on Dec 2, 2018 13:32:49 GMT 1
Oh dear. 217 000 new houses last year, still not enough to house last year's increase in immigration numbers never mind the last 20 years!! But the problem is just caused by a small increase in stv properties? Why is renting so high? Simple supply and demand. It's not a right wing conspiracy it's simple economics, something any left wingers obviously don't understand 😂 Oh dear. Brexiteer (hopefully aware that all brexit scenarios leave the country worse off economically) attempts to lecture someone in “simple” economics.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2018 14:03:28 GMT 1
Oh dear. 217 000 new houses last year, still not enough to house last year's increase in immigration numbers never mind the last 20 years!! But the problem is just caused by a small increase in stv properties? Why is renting so high? Simple supply and demand. It's not a right wing conspiracy it's simple economics, something any left wingers obviously don't understand 😂 Oh dear. Brexiteer (hopefully aware that all brexit scenarios leave the country worse off economically) attempts to lecture someone in “simple” economics. Remain shocker... placing the economy as the only reason to stay... forgetting that we are a well advanced country and will manage very well out of the club of 28
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Post by tvor on Dec 2, 2018 16:25:32 GMT 1
All the research I've ever read regarding the financial impact of migrants moving to the UK concluded that they are net contributors to the UK economy.
Lack of affordable housing has been a problem for decades. It started in the 1980s when Council Housing was sold off without the proceeds being released for new replacement houses to be built.
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 2, 2018 17:03:53 GMT 1
Yep, Farage certainly tipped the balance but that was only because half the country was so unhappy and he gave them a voice. Personally, all I've ever heard people do in this country for the 34 years I've been at work is moan about the state of the country and that moaning has just got stronger and stronger and stronger over the last decade. Just letting 300k extra people into the country is just ridiculous - we can't cope with that amount - thankfully Brexit has already started to slow that down. Once we get the EU numbers down we can start to slow down the numbers of Non-EU too (and governments will fall in this country if that particular government doesn't make it happen). In ten years time instead of having an extra 3 million extra people in the country, I hope the numbers are less than a million and continuing to slow. 100,000 extra people each year is still too much IMO. The future under a Remain vote would also have been unknown and uncertain. It couldn't go on as it was, half the country were unhappy with it. I don't know anyone who voted Leave last time who would now vote Remain, equally I don't know any Remainers who would vote Leave, but I do know Remainers who just want to get on with it now and get it done. Quite possibly that's apathetic and lacking resolve on their part and that could play its part if there was ever a 2nd referendum. What will those types of people be thinking when they tick the box in the Referendum - I'll stick with my vote from last time or - We're back to square one and the s**t lives and s**t country we had two years ago, with a bleak divide to look forward to. What's for sure is that in 2016 one half of the country felt that being in the EU was a good thing and the other half felt it was a bad thing. Just that slightly more felt it was a bad thing. I can put up with a bit of extra hassle if I travel to Europe. But that's their loss if they make it too much hassle. I see it being tough for a few years until it all settles down. But truly believe we are a hardy, creative and quality conscious nation of people who will weather the storm and become happier as a nation in the medium-long term. Going forward ten years, a future being out of the EU fills me with hope A future staying in the EU fills me with dread. Ok, well you deal with dreams and I will deal with reality. The UK birth rate is down. www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2017Note the increase in birth from those outside the UK. There are skills shortages in many sectors. Young people don't seem to be interested in the 'dirty jobs'. While we aspire for our children to improve themselves beyond what we do, there is nobody to clean your car at Tesco. You can work out the effect on the economy if there aren't enough people to fill roles in say, manufacture and engineering. We will now have to compete with economic power houses such as USA, China and India alone. While not forgetting the emerging economies of Brazil, Turkey and Mexico. Meanwhile though there's this to consider. www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/Issues/2018/03/20/world-economic-outlook-april-2018According to this, growth rates aren't going to last. We are leaving the EU at the worst possible time, at a time when growth is slowing. It's all very well having a hardy, creative and quality focused population (and who hasn't) but it's no good if we can't sell our goods, services and anything else we may have to shill for if we have high tariffs, and a slowing economy. History has proven that been in the EU has softened the blow of recession and now we will be outside that. It may well damage the country for a generation or two. But, like I said I won't around, so I won't feel the effects. As for lives and country, speak for yourself. But again, this is where Remainers 'just don't get it' (and probably never will). Two years ago and for a number of years before that, many in the population were becoming concerned that their lives as part of the EU were becoming increasingly worse. Life was s**t for many (it might not have been for you). People would've voted Remain if their lives were good. Go back, even 10 years and people would clean their own cars, parents would often give their kids pocket money to do it, mine certainly did. Car cleaning services for the general public are only 'nice to haves' and exist only because parents nowadays are either too lazy to do it themselves, reluctant to ask their kids to do it (because they probably get given money, instead of earning pocket money) or much more likely the parents are much too stressed and knackered by the world of work in the 21st Century to do it themselves. Kids today are also over-loaded with ridiculous amounts of homework and far too many pressures from social media etc. I'm lucky enough to go out to many businesses all over the UK as part of my job role. I work with senior managers and shop floor people and an overwhelming % of those people dislike the jobs they are in. Too many hours, too many pressures, phone always ringing when they get home, the companies they work for always wanting more etc, etc. The working people of this country are knackered! And they take that home with them, no wonder they want somebody else to clean their cars for them! And no wonder the birth rate is on the decrease! Couples are having kids later, trying to build futures for themselves before they are able to 'afford' a child. People find it difficult to live on one wage nowadays. And all this has been happening whilst we've been in the EU. It may well be worse if we leave the EU, but it can't be much worse than what it is, because quite frankly it's dire and it's been increasingly dire for some time. If we Leave, then sectors like manufacturing, agricultural, engineering, the NHS will need to adapt. It will likely be a slow process because those sectors have marketed themselves appallingly over the last 20 years or so. Poor pay, hard boring work etc. Many years ago the parents of this country pushed their kids to join organisations like the NHS, but nowadays they're more likely to tell them to stay well clear. That needs to change. When Remainers voted Remain, they basically said 'I like it as it is and I like the way it's going to be in the future' Those who voted to Leave, basically said 'I don't like it as it is and I want it to be better in the future' I can't see any way that our lives will be better in this country by continuing to do what we've been doing as part of the EU. If we'd have remained then it was more of 'the same' and that was unacceptable to many. If You Always Do What You’ve Always Done, You Always Get What You’ve Always Got - Henry Ford, I believe. Well what we've had is s**t and really s**t for some. But each to their own, if you're life is great then fantastic, one vote each and all that.
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 2, 2018 17:11:41 GMT 1
All the research I've ever read regarding the financial impact of migrants moving to the UK concluded that they are net contributors to the UK economy. Lack of affordable housing has been a problem for decades. It started in the 1980s when Council Housing was sold off without the proceeds being released for new replacement houses to be built. They do a fantastic job and are fantastic people. The problem is the sheer numbers and its effect on infrastructure and services with little additional resource from the EU to help our country cope with mass migration of the 'Union's' peoples.
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 2, 2018 17:24:20 GMT 1
Oh dear. 217 000 new houses last year, still not enough to house last year's increase in immigration numbers never mind the last 20 years!! But the problem is just caused by a small increase in stv properties? Why is renting so high? Simple supply and demand. It's not a right wing conspiracy it's simple economics, something any left wingers obviously don't understand 😂 Oh dear. Brexiteer (hopefully aware that all brexit scenarios leave the country worse off economically) attempts to lecture someone in “simple” economics. Are these the same scenarios we heard about in Project Fear? It's the same old argument all over again. The people who voted to Leave took all this into account two years ago and still voted to Leave. People who voted to Leave are well aware that it 'might' get worse economically. And we go back in a complete circle of Remainers telling us how bad it'll be economically and Leaver's saying but we didn't vote to Leave because of the economy! And besides there was plenty of opposition to those forecasts from people much more knowledgeable than anyone on this forum, opinion was always divided on the accuracy of those forecasts and will be again if there's a 2nd referendum.
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 2, 2018 17:31:55 GMT 1
It seems strange that we are now allowing more non-EU migrants into the country and this more than off sets the decrease in EU migrants It was always going to be that more non EU migrants would be allowed in, whilst EU migrant numbers fell, but it's untrue that the numbers are 'offsetting' the decrease in EU migrants. Net migration is down and down substantially. Once EU migration is better controlled then Non EU migration will come next. Because this is what Leavers wanted, less immigration. Future governments have to understand this and get this right, because if they don't, then they won't be in power long!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2018 17:50:11 GMT 1
It seems strange that we are now allowing more non-EU migrants into the country and this more than off sets the decrease in EU migrants It was always going to be that more non EU migrants would be allowed in, whilst EU migrant numbers fell, but it's untrue that the numbers are 'offsetting' the decrease in EU migrants. Net migration is down and down substantially. Once EU migration is better controlled then Non EU migration will come next. Because this is what Leavers wanted, less immigration. Future governments have to understand this and get this right, because if they don't, then they won't be in power long! Net immigration is hugely up according to the figures announced last week. EU down, non EU up.
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Post by highlandshrew on Dec 2, 2018 17:51:32 GMT 1
It seems strange that we are now allowing more non-EU migrants into the country and this more than off sets the decrease in EU migrants It was always going to be that more non EU migrants would be allowed in, whilst EU migrant numbers fell, but it's untrue that the numbers are 'offsetting' the decrease in EU migrants. Net migration is down and down substantially.
Once EU migration is better controlled then Non EU migration will come next. Because this is what Leavers wanted, less immigration. Future governments have to understand this and get this right, because if they don't, then they won't be in power long! To say 'Net migration is down and down substantially' is actually nonsense, incorrect, wrong, fake news. Pick whichever term you want. The official figures from the O.N.S. show than net migration (the difference between the total number of people arriving as against those who are leaving) into the UK peaked in 2015 and 2016. It then dropped in 2017, but has gone up again this year. To quote from a Guardian article last Thursday 'The data suggests non-EU net migration is more than three times the level of EU net migration. Overall, net long-term international migration was 273,000. This is down from the record levels of about 330,000 two years ago, but still almost three times the government’s target of less than 100,000.' So, overall net migration is higher this year than last (so not 'going down substantially'). Migration from the EU countries is down significantly and still falling BUT migration from non-EU countries has more than made up for this fall, and continues to rise. Sorry to let the facts get in the way of your argument.
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 2, 2018 17:55:47 GMT 1
It's not a red herring at all, it's basic logic. 300,000 extra people in the UK every year need somewhere to live. If they can't afford somewhere to live it's because they are happy to work for a wage that is unrealistic to the financial demands of living in the UK, as part of the EU, within the 21st Century. Landlords can charge what they want. Their properties. Charge too much, the risk is they don't get any rent and surely the whole point in owning a property to rent out, is to actually rent it out! If 300k extra don't come into the UK every year, then rent prices will fall, solely because there is less demand. So yes, it has plenty to do with immigration. Decrease the numbers, get Landlords to decrease their rents, get people off the streets. This is what we all want. But we won't do that, not in a million years, if we're getting 300k extra people into the country every year.
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 2, 2018 18:15:10 GMT 1
It was always going to be that more non EU migrants would be allowed in, whilst EU migrant numbers fell, but it's untrue that the numbers are 'offsetting' the decrease in EU migrants. Net migration is down and down substantially. Once EU migration is better controlled then Non EU migration will come next. Because this is what Leavers wanted, less immigration. Future governments have to understand this and get this right, because if they don't, then they won't be in power long! Net immigration is hugely up according to the figures announced last week. EU down, non EU up. Since the Brexit vote we are down! That's the point! www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42178038We control the EU numbers and then we control the Non EU numbers. Future governments have to understand this It's not going to happen overnight, a steady decrease overall whilst we adapt but a trend of decreasing nevertheless.
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 2, 2018 18:29:29 GMT 1
It was always going to be that more non EU migrants would be allowed in, whilst EU migrant numbers fell, but it's untrue that the numbers are 'offsetting' the decrease in EU migrants. Net migration is down and down substantially.
Once EU migration is better controlled then Non EU migration will come next. Because this is what Leavers wanted, less immigration. Future governments have to understand this and get this right, because if they don't, then they won't be in power long! To say 'Net migration is down and down substantially' is actually nonsense, incorrect, wrong, fake news. Pick whichever term you want. The official figures from the O.N.S. show than net migration (the difference between the total number of people arriving as against those who are leaving) into the UK peaked in 2015 and 2016. It then dropped in 2017, but has gone up again this year. To quote from a Guardian article last Thursday 'The data suggests non-EU net migration is more than three times the level of EU net migration. Overall, net long-term international migration was 273,000. This is down from the record levels of about 330,000 two years ago, but still almost three times the government’s target of less than 100,000.'
So, overall net migration is higher this year than last (so not 'going down substantially'). Migration from the EU countries is down significantly and still falling BUT migration from non-EU countries has more than made up for this fall, and continues to rise. Sorry to let the facts get in the way of your argument. Overall, net long-term international migration was 273,000. This is down from the record levels of about 330,000 two years ago, but still almost three times the government’s target of less than 100,000.I make that down 57,000, a significant drop since the Brexit vote....and we haven't even left yet!
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Post by highlandshrew on Dec 2, 2018 19:31:06 GMT 1
To say 'Net migration is down and down substantially' is actually nonsense, incorrect, wrong, fake news. Pick whichever term you want. The official figures from the O.N.S. show than net migration (the difference between the total number of people arriving as against those who are leaving) into the UK peaked in 2015 and 2016. It then dropped in 2017, but has gone up again this year. To quote from a Guardian article last Thursday 'The data suggests non-EU net migration is more than three times the level of EU net migration. Overall, net long-term international migration was 273,000. This is down from the record levels of about 330,000 two years ago, but still almost three times the government’s target of less than 100,000.'
So, overall net migration is higher this year than last (so not 'going down substantially'). Migration from the EU countries is down significantly and still falling BUT migration from non-EU countries has more than made up for this fall, and continues to rise. Sorry to let the facts get in the way of your argument. Overall, net long-term international migration was 273,000. This is down from the record levels of about 330,000 two years ago, but still almost three times the government’s target of less than 100,000.I make that down 57,000, a significant drop since the Brexit vote....and we haven't even left yet! Have a look at the numbers:- Annual net migration at June 2017 = 226,000 Annual net migration at June 2018 = 273,000 Rise in annual net migration into the UK in the last 12 months for which figures are available = 47,000! If you think that means that 'migration is going down substantially', then good for you. Personally, I think a 20% increase year on year is better described as 'going up substantially'. Lies, damned lies & statistics . . . .
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 2, 2018 20:09:16 GMT 1
Overall, net long-term international migration was 273,000. This is down from the record levels of about 330,000 two years ago, but still almost three times the government’s target of less than 100,000.I make that down 57,000, a significant drop since the Brexit vote....and we haven't even left yet! Have a look at the numbers:- Annual net migration at June 2017 = 226,000 Annual net migration at June 2018 = 273,000 Rise in annual net migration into the UK in the last 12 months for which figures are available = 47,000! If you think that means that 'migration is going down substantially', then good for you. Personally, I think a 20% increase year on year is better described as 'going up substantially'. Lies, damned lies & statistics . . . . Ok, fair point, but I'm looking at the 'since Brexit' figures. We're substantially below where we were in 2016. There was always going to be a rise in Non-Eu migrants whilst we adapt to what the public voted for, but in time it can only go one way, because it has to. Governments won't survive if it doesn't and immigration will continue to be an issue giving fuel to the Right and Far Right. Getting the numbers right is absolutely essential. 300k extra is just ridiculous. Three Shrewsbury sized populations every year! Remain and this is what we will continue to get, but surely there has to be a 'number control' on it somewhere and this just was not happening. 300k too many for me (and I guess the rest of the Leave voters). What about you Remainers? What number (every year) do you think is acceptable?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2018 20:10:00 GMT 1
Oh dear. 217 000 new houses last year, still not enough to house last year's increase in immigration numbers never mind the last 20 years!! But the problem is just caused by a small increase in stv properties? Why is renting so high? Simple supply and demand. It's not a right wing conspiracy it's simple economics, something any left wingers obviously don't understand 😂 Nothing like ignoring the figures, to actually see what the real problem is. Of course 'left-wingers' understand simple economics. They have a different way of doing it. You, know a different ideology. Hahaha, or summat.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2018 20:31:30 GMT 1
Overall, net long-term international migration was 273,000. This is down from the record levels of about 330,000 two years ago, but still almost three times the government’s target of less than 100,000.I make that down 57,000, a significant drop since the Brexit vote....and we haven't even left yet! Rise in annual net migration into the UK in the last 12 months for which figures are available = 47,000! Yes, and over 600,000 homes left empty. Pesky migrants.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2018 20:37:21 GMT 1
Ok, well you deal with dreams and I will deal with reality. The UK birth rate is down. www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2017Note the increase in birth from those outside the UK. There are skills shortages in many sectors. Young people don't seem to be interested in the 'dirty jobs'. While we aspire for our children to improve themselves beyond what we do, there is nobody to clean your car at Tesco. You can work out the effect on the economy if there aren't enough people to fill roles in say, manufacture and engineering. We will now have to compete with economic power houses such as USA, China and India alone. While not forgetting the emerging economies of Brazil, Turkey and Mexico. Meanwhile though there's this to consider. www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/Issues/2018/03/20/world-economic-outlook-april-2018According to this, growth rates aren't going to last. We are leaving the EU at the worst possible time, at a time when growth is slowing. It's all very well having a hardy, creative and quality focused population (and who hasn't) but it's no good if we can't sell our goods, services and anything else we may have to shill for if we have high tariffs, and a slowing economy. History has proven that been in the EU has softened the blow of recession and now we will be outside that. It may well damage the country for a generation or two. But, like I said I won't around, so I won't feel the effects. As for lives and country, speak for yourself. But again, this is where Remainers 'just don't get it' (and probably never will). Two years ago and for a number of years before that, many in the population were becoming concerned that their lives as part of the EU were becoming increasingly worse. Life was s**t for many (it might not have been for you). People would've voted Remain if their lives were good. Go back, even 10 years and people would clean their own cars, parents would often give their kids pocket money to do it, mine certainly did. Car cleaning services for the general public are only 'nice to haves' and exist only because parents nowadays are either too lazy to do it themselves, reluctant to ask their kids to do it (because they probably get given money, instead of earning pocket money) or much more likely the parents are much too stressed and knackered by the world of work in the 21st Century to do it themselves. Kids today are also over-loaded with ridiculous amounts of homework and far too many pressures from social media etc. I'm lucky enough to go out to many businesses all over the UK as part of my job role. I work with senior managers and shop floor people and an overwhelming % of those people dislike the jobs they are in. Too many hours, too many pressures, phone always ringing when they get home, the companies they work for always wanting more etc, etc. The working people of this country are knackered! And they take that home with them, no wonder they want somebody else to clean their cars for them! And no wonder the birth rate is on the decrease! Couples are having kids later, trying to build futures for themselves before they are able to 'afford' a child. People find it difficult to live on one wage nowadays. And all this has been happening whilst we've been in the EU. It may well be worse if we leave the EU, but it can't be much worse than what it is, because quite frankly it's dire and it's been increasingly dire for some time. If we Leave, then sectors like manufacturing, agricultural, engineering, the NHS will need to adapt. It will likely be a slow process because those sectors have marketed themselves appallingly over the last 20 years or so. Poor pay, hard boring work etc. Many years ago the parents of this country pushed their kids to join organisations like the NHS, but nowadays they're more likely to tell them to stay well clear. That needs to change. When Remainers voted Remain, they basically said 'I like it as it is and I like the way it's going to be in the future' Those who voted to Leave, basically said 'I don't like it as it is and I want it to be better in the future' I can't see any way that our lives will be better in this country by continuing to do what we've been doing as part of the EU. If we'd have remained then it was more of 'the same' and that was unacceptable to many. If You Always Do What You’ve Always Done, You Always Get What You’ve Always Got - Henry Ford, I believe. Well what we've had is s**t and really s**t for some. But each to their own, if you're life is great then fantastic, one vote each and all that. As pointed out, life being for many has nothing to do with the EU. There's plenty that 'Brexiters' don't get, don't be patronising. The way you view the voting is simplistic, when you consider the left-wing/right-wing view of leaving the EU, the demographics and the protest vote, most of whom would probably vote remain now.
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 2, 2018 21:03:59 GMT 1
Rise in annual net migration into the UK in the last 12 months for which figures are available = 47,000! Yes, and over 600,000 homes left empty. Pesky migrants. 600,000 homes left empty is more than enough to house all those living on the streets. Trouble is, the people living on the streets can't afford to live in those houses, because they're not in jobs that pay well enough to cope with the rent. Otherwise they would, wouldn't they? So we have to question why those people can't find jobs that pay well enough and a contributing factor to that is cheap labour. Go back twenty years and I worked in an industry where the skilled workers were well paid. It was the ambition of many to go from unskilled - semi-skilled - skilled and when they achieved that level they were paid a great wage. Nowadays, migrant labour has reduced that dramatically, in twenty years, those skilled workers have had no increase. The money is now seen as 'crap' and the skilled work is hard. It no longer attracts British people because the journey of unskilled-semi-skilled-skilled is of little financial benefit. So migrant workers fill the positions and they have to share homes to even afford to live in the country. Where once 10 British workers would live in 10 different houses the migrant workers will live in three or four different houses to cut costs, leaving a surplus of 6 or 7 houses! So, we can't bury our heads here and state that immigration does not have an effect when it so clearly does.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2018 21:10:10 GMT 1
Yes, and over 600,000 homes left empty. Pesky migrants. 600,000 homes left empty is more than enough to house all those living on the streets. Trouble is, the people living on the streets can't afford to live in those houses, because they're not in jobs that pay well enough to cope with the rent. Otherwise they would, wouldn't they? So we have to question why those people can't find jobs that pay well enough and a contributing factor to that is cheap labour. Go back twenty years and I worked in an industry where the skilled workers were well paid. It was the ambition of many to go from unskilled - semi-skilled - skilled and when they achieved that level they were paid a great wage. Nowadays, migrant labour has reduced that dramatically, in twenty years, those skilled workers have had no increase. The money is now seen as 'cr@p' and the skilled work is hard. It no longer attracts British people because the journey of unskilled-semi-skilled-skilled is of little financial benefit. So migrant workers fill the positions and they have to share homes to even afford to live in the country. Where once 10 British workers would live in 10 different houses the migrant workers will live in three or four different houses to cut costs, leaving a surplus of 6 or 7 houses! So, we can't bury our heads here and state that immigration does not have an effect when it so clearly does. Homeless people usually have other problems, such as substance abuse and mental health issues. You're right though, we should stop burying our head in the sand and see what the real problem is in the country and it's not immigration.
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 2, 2018 21:21:41 GMT 1
But again, this is where Remainers 'just don't get it' (and probably never will). Two years ago and for a number of years before that, many in the population were becoming concerned that their lives as part of the EU were becoming increasingly worse. Life was s**t for many (it might not have been for you). People would've voted Remain if their lives were good. Go back, even 10 years and people would clean their own cars, parents would often give their kids pocket money to do it, mine certainly did. Car cleaning services for the general public are only 'nice to haves' and exist only because parents nowadays are either too lazy to do it themselves, reluctant to ask their kids to do it (because they probably get given money, instead of earning pocket money) or much more likely the parents are much too stressed and knackered by the world of work in the 21st Century to do it themselves. Kids today are also over-loaded with ridiculous amounts of homework and far too many pressures from social media etc. I'm lucky enough to go out to many businesses all over the UK as part of my job role. I work with senior managers and shop floor people and an overwhelming % of those people dislike the jobs they are in. Too many hours, too many pressures, phone always ringing when they get home, the companies they work for always wanting more etc, etc. The working people of this country are knackered! And they take that home with them, no wonder they want somebody else to clean their cars for them! And no wonder the birth rate is on the decrease! Couples are having kids later, trying to build futures for themselves before they are able to 'afford' a child. People find it difficult to live on one wage nowadays. And all this has been happening whilst we've been in the EU. It may well be worse if we leave the EU, but it can't be much worse than what it is, because quite frankly it's dire and it's been increasingly dire for some time. If we Leave, then sectors like manufacturing, agricultural, engineering, the NHS will need to adapt. It will likely be a slow process because those sectors have marketed themselves appallingly over the last 20 years or so. Poor pay, hard boring work etc. Many years ago the parents of this country pushed their kids to join organisations like the NHS, but nowadays they're more likely to tell them to stay well clear. That needs to change. When Remainers voted Remain, they basically said 'I like it as it is and I like the way it's going to be in the future' Those who voted to Leave, basically said 'I don't like it as it is and I want it to be better in the future' I can't see any way that our lives will be better in this country by continuing to do what we've been doing as part of the EU. If we'd have remained then it was more of 'the same' and that was unacceptable to many. If You Always Do What You’ve Always Done, You Always Get What You’ve Always Got - Henry Ford, I believe. Well what we've had is s**t and really s**t for some. But each to their own, if you're life is great then fantastic, one vote each and all that. As pointed out, life being for many has nothing to do with the EU. There's plenty that 'Brexiters' don't get, don't be patronising. The way you view the voting is simplistic, when you consider the left-wing/right-wing view of leaving the EU, the demographics and the protest vote, most of whom would probably vote remain now. Of course it has something to do with the EU, we're part of the EU! And yes, you're right there's plenty on both sides that people don't get. That's not patronising, it's just the truth. We can only go on our experiences in life, and whether that is simplistic or not matters not. Just reflecting on our lives, what we've got and what we think we're likely to have in the future given our personal circumstances is as important as reading articles by people who don't know our personal circumstances at all. I would much rather trust my own judgement than that of a politician, advisor, journalist or forecaster! It is untrue that most would vote Remain now, some might, but some might go the other way too, but saying 'most' is completely wrong and in my experience far from the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2018 21:43:55 GMT 1
Nicko... are you saying immigration is not part of the problem... in anyway shape or form....
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 2, 2018 21:48:17 GMT 1
600,000 homes left empty is more than enough to house all those living on the streets. Trouble is, the people living on the streets can't afford to live in those houses, because they're not in jobs that pay well enough to cope with the rent. Otherwise they would, wouldn't they? So we have to question why those people can't find jobs that pay well enough and a contributing factor to that is cheap labour. Go back twenty years and I worked in an industry where the skilled workers were well paid. It was the ambition of many to go from unskilled - semi-skilled - skilled and when they achieved that level they were paid a great wage. Nowadays, migrant labour has reduced that dramatically, in twenty years, those skilled workers have had no increase. The money is now seen as 'cr@p' and the skilled work is hard. It no longer attracts British people because the journey of unskilled-semi-skilled-skilled is of little financial benefit. So migrant workers fill the positions and they have to share homes to even afford to live in the country. Where once 10 British workers would live in 10 different houses the migrant workers will live in three or four different houses to cut costs, leaving a surplus of 6 or 7 houses! So, we can't bury our heads here and state that immigration does not have an effect when it so clearly does. Homeless people usually have other problems, such as substance abuse and mental health issues. You're right though, we should stop burying our head in the sand and see what the real problem is in the country and it's not immigration. Yes, they may well have other problems, but that is for society to take care of them. As a country we could take care of them if we were not paying 8 billion net contribution to the EU. Once we leave, we will almost certainly have less migrants sleeping rough on our streets and once we adapt to being out of Europe we can use our money more wisely as a society to help those more in need. In fact we should demand it from our politicians shouldn't we? But we can't do that whilst our UK pot of gold disappears into a bigger EU pot of gold, never to be seen again, our pot needs to be bigger to be able to do it and to do all the other things we'd like as a society. Ultimately we all want similar things (I think) - Better paid jobs - Less hours at work - More holidays - Job security - Great healthcare - Great education for our kids - Affordable housing - Lots of disposable to either save or spend - Great welfare if we should fall on hard times - Plenty in the pot to help those who are the most vulnerable in society Whilst we are members of the EU we are nowhere near achieving all that and from what I can see, if we'd voted to Remain it's unlikely that would've just changed, just more of the same.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Dec 3, 2018 0:07:29 GMT 1
Not many things in economics is simply supply and demand with one line positioned from bottom left rising to top right (the supply curve) and another descending from top left to bottom right.
This certainly isn't the case with land - because (i) they don't make it anymore (ii) demand is fuelled by credit rather than a growth in prosperity of the purchasers.
PS the supply curve for manufactured goods tends to be horizontal - which blows away the self-regulating market and the invisible hand.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Dec 3, 2018 0:21:27 GMT 1
We're a country misgoverned by an alarmingly inept and vicious clique of gentleman idlers. Jeremy Corbyn is not a threat to these people, but the people around him and the 100,000s behind him hopefully are.
There are items in the Labour party manifesto that has mass appeal: railways and water companies being renationalised. I also believe that people are turning against the deliberate viciousness of the social security system and in favour of councils building homes again.
But all of these things could be actioned and this country still feel the same. We could still be a country where the market is the measure of everything. If you have set foot in an NHS hospital recently you'll well know that crushingly depressing feel of the part-privatised remnants of the welfare state being gradually parsed away.
The real battle is to change the culture of petty nastiness and penny-pinching in Britain that far too infrequently has a mirror held up to it: Grenfell, Windrush, David Clapson. Instead there needs to be a rebuilding of institutions that change the way we think about ourselves, the world, the way we act towards each other and the way we live in society.
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Post by tvor on Dec 3, 2018 18:21:15 GMT 1
The full legal advice confirms that the UK is being given the Hotel California option - the UK cannot unilaterally leave. Then the deal is even more doomed to failure than before this came to light.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2018 18:31:50 GMT 1
The full legal advice confirms that the UK is being given the Hotel California option - the UK cannot unilaterally leave. As a staunch Tory... I think Mrs May is doing an awful job, and Cameron before her has dropped her right in it... she is doing a worse job than Blair. and she is truly ****ed!! she needs to be replaced by someone who believes in BREXIT.... and sharpish
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Post by venceremos on Dec 3, 2018 18:47:30 GMT 1
The full legal advice confirms that the UK is being given the Hotel California option - the UK cannot unilaterally leave. As a staunch Tory... I think Mrs May is doing an awful job, and Cameron before her has dropped her right in it... she is doing a worse job than Blair. and she is truly ****ed!! she needs to be replaced by someone who believes in BREXIT.... and sharpish As a staunch non-Tory, I agree entirely with your first paragraph. I'll pass on the second.
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