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Post by Amsterdammer on Nov 25, 2014 7:29:55 GMT 1
LSF - is that the same Nicolas Anelka who was suspended for 5 games and sacked by his club. And are you comparing it to the Terry 4 game ban?
I'm with you on the over reaction but to claim his comments aren't offensive is way off the mark. Hadn't Whelan apologized? Even he doesn't agree with you
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 9:25:11 GMT 1
The man is 77 years old. Give him a break
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Post by Amsterdammer on Nov 25, 2014 13:09:30 GMT 1
The man is 77 years old. Give him a break Younger than Blatter
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Post by cmonsalop on Nov 25, 2014 13:57:19 GMT 1
All Scots are tight arses, racist or not?
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Post by Amsterdammer on Nov 25, 2014 14:39:04 GMT 1
All Scots are tight arses, racist or not? If UKIP got power and used this as a justification for the round up and wholesale massacre of all Scots then it's offensive. Especially if you referred to one specific Scot in its use (as Mackay did with the agent) and not just all Scots. Scots and Jews are not races as far as I an aware.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 25, 2014 14:41:02 GMT 1
All Scots are tight arses, racist or not? If UKIP got power and used this as a justification for the round up and wholesale massacre of all Scots then it's offensive. What!?!?!?
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Post by shrewinjapan on Nov 25, 2014 15:29:48 GMT 1
If UKIP got power and used this as a justification for the round up and wholesale massacre of all Scots then it's offensive. What!?!?!? I think he is trying to point out that you have to look at the background to things and put them into perspective. The stereotype of Jewish people as being money-grabbing loan sharks has been used in the past as part of a justification for their persecution and in the case of nazi Germany their industrial-scale murder. Hence it is an offensive stereotype. Saying that the Scots are tight fisted, while still a fairly offensive stereotype in my book, doesn't have the same historical connotations.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 25, 2014 16:18:58 GMT 1
I think he is trying to point out that you have to look at the background to things and put them into perspective. The stereotype of Jewish people as being money-grabbing loan sharks has been used in the past as part of a justification for their persecution and in the case of nazi Germany their industrial-scale murder. Hence it is an offensive stereotype. Saying that the Scots are tight fisted, while still a fairly offensive stereotype in my book, doesn't have the same historical connotations. I'm with you. I just wondered where the UKIP bit come from... I think perspective is one thing but you have to use a bit of common sense. I mean the stereotype of the Jewish people being greedy may well have been used in the past as a justification for their persecution but that's certainly not something Whelan is adhering to now is it. And you would have to question anyone who believes that. I certainly would anyhows. Clumsy, ignorant, offensive and considering the historical context insensitive too. But I think an apology is sufficient and I hope he isn't forced to step down...
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Post by camdenshrew on Nov 25, 2014 16:50:09 GMT 1
Why is the fact that Whelan is 77 got anything to do with it? He's still got the brains to run a football club so any thought he should be excused because age is playing tricks with his mind is well wide of the mark.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 25, 2014 20:48:49 GMT 1
Why is the fact that Whelan is 77 got anything to do with it? He's still got the brains to run a football club so any thought he should be excused because age is playing tricks with his mind is well wide of the mark. I dunno. I think it is relevant. Terms that may have been the norm when Whelan was growing up may not be in this day and age. I'm in my early 40s and no doubt say things that aren't altogether PC but they are terms that I have used since I was a nipper. I think a little leeway is called for myself.
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Post by Amsterdammer on Nov 25, 2014 21:51:34 GMT 1
I think he is trying to point out that you have to look at the background to things and put them into perspective. The stereotype of Jewish people as being money-grabbing loan sharks has been used in the past as part of a justification for their persecution and in the case of nazi Germany their industrial-scale murder. Hence it is an offensive stereotype. Saying that the Scots are tight fisted, while still a fairly offensive stereotype in my book, doesn't have the same historical connotations. I'm with you. I just wondered where the UKIP bit come from... I think perspective is one thing but you have to use a bit of common sense. I mean the stereotype of the Jewish people being greedy may well have been used in the past as a justification for their persecution but that's certainly not something Whelan is adhering to now is it. And you would have to question anyone who believes that. I certainly would anyhows. Clumsy, ignorant, offensive and considering the historical context insensitive too. But I think an apology is sufficient and I hope he isn't forced to step down... Yeah agree it was a stretch to compare UKIP with the National Socialists but it seemed the most up to date comparison. And I agree on Whelan, read above. Seems he apologized and now needs to read up his history and get a better pr man. But don't agree with people trying to say 'what's offensive?' about it. That seems just an attempt to cause trouble and justify their own bigoted views.
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Post by heavyglow on Nov 25, 2014 22:26:33 GMT 1
Whilst a rancid proportion of this thread appear to be expressing the opinion that they are fully supportive of wealthy businessmen publicly expressing abhorrent views; I'm going to go against the flow and say I hope Whelan has the book thrown at him. (Assuming of course he hasn't been misrepresented by the Grauniad).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 23:15:40 GMT 1
Why is the fact that Whelan is 77 got anything to do with it? He's still got the brains to run a football club so any thought he should be excused because age is playing tricks with his mind is well wide of the mark. I dunno. I think it is relevant. Terms that may have been the norm when Whelan was growing up may not be in this day and age. I'm in my early 40s and no doubt say things that aren't altogether PC but they are terms that I have used since I was a nipper. I think a little leeway is called for myself. Exactly this. My grandma, for example, is an extremely tolerant person, but if you some of the terms I've heard her come out with on the odd occasion and stuck them on the front page of the newspapers it wouldn't look too good for her either. I don't want to condone Whelan or Mackay's comments, however the self-righteousness that rears its head every time we get one of these situations does annoy me. Anyone who thinks they are completely free from prejudice should try taking one of the tests at the below link. See Malcolm Gladwell's (excellent) book Blink if you'd like to know more about the thinking behind them, but suffice to say that the majority of people who take them demonstrate unconscious prejudices in a whole range of ways. implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/uk/
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Post by Bob Rickerton on Nov 25, 2014 23:22:07 GMT 1
I don't find what Whelan said offensive, for me saying that Jews 'chase money' is as much of a stereotype as the Germans being efficient or the British liking roast beef. Not ideal, slightly naive but certainly not in the category of being racist. As a person of Jewish heritage, does that give me any qualifications to pass judgement on this or do I have to bow to Rickerton's superior knowledge on this one? As shrewinjapan and I both stated, it's about historical context; the British have never been persecuted for their love of roast beef. You're well within your rights as a person of Jewish heritage to not personally take offence at Whelan's comments. Equally, your Jewish heritage doesn't mean you get to decide on behalf of the Jewish population as to whether or not the comments were offensive. Neither do the Jewish Leadership Council or the Board of Deputies of British Jews, but the fact that they both condemned the remarks suggests that it's not a laughable idea to suggest they were anti-Semitic. And the comments weren't made completely in isolation, a throwaway remark at a dinner party for example (not that in that context I'd consider them acceptable, but still.) They were racially insensitive comments used as part of a long-winded attempt to defend the appointment of a man currently under investigation by the FA for sending racist, sexist and homophobic texts. Of course that's important. I thought Football365 wrote a really good article about the whole affair and its importance, feel free to take a look and disagree here.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Nov 26, 2014 0:06:44 GMT 1
Why is the fact that Whelan is 77 got anything to do with it? He's still got the brains to run a football club so any thought he should be excused because age is playing tricks with his mind is well wide of the mark. I dunno. I think it is relevant. Terms that may have been the norm when Whelan was growing up may not be in this day and age. I'm in my early 40s and no doubt say things that aren't altogether PC but they are terms that I have used since I was a nipper. I think a little leeway is called for myself. How about the old duffer in the Cumbrian FA who told the lady ref that there was no place for women in the game and that they should get back in the kitchen where they belong, or words to that effect? Offensive and unacceptable these days, but common thinking among blokes of the old-timer's generation. Don't think age is much of an excuse myself, if you've lived through the times you know what is and isn't deemed acceptable by others even if your own perspectives haven't shifted with the times. I'm of a similar age to you Stutty (43) and I'm pretty sure that we both wouldn't dream of saying many of the things that people used to say fairly routinely in the 70's (about gender, sexuality, race, disabilities etc.)
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Post by shrewinjapan on Nov 26, 2014 0:14:23 GMT 1
I don't find what Whelan said offensive, for me saying that Jews 'chase money' is as much of a stereotype as the Germans being efficient or the British liking roast beef. Not ideal, slightly naive but certainly not in the category of being racist. As a person of Jewish heritage, does that give me any qualifications to pass judgement on this or do I have to bow to Rickerton's superior knowledge on this one? As shrewinjapan and I both stated, it's about historical context; the British have never been persecuted for their love of roast beef. You're well within your rights as a person of Jewish heritage to not personally take offence at Whelan's comments. Equally, your Jewish heritage doesn't mean you get to decide on behalf of the Jewish population as to whether or not the comments were offensive. Neither do the Jewish Leadership Council or the Board of Deputies of British Jews, but the fact that they both condemned the remarks suggests that it's not a laughable idea to suggest they were anti-Semitic. And the comments weren't made completely in isolation, a throwaway remark at a dinner party for example (not that in that context I'd consider them acceptable, but still.) They were racially insensitive comments used as part of a long-winded attempt to defend the appointment of a man currently under investigation by the FA for sending racist, sexist and homophobic texts. Of course that's important. I thought Football365 wrote a really good article about the whole affair and its importance, feel free to take a look and disagree here. I would add that in my opinion propagation of negative stereotypes like jewish people being greedy, grasping money-lenders are more insidiously dangerous and damaging than using overtly offensive terms like "kyke" or "yid"
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Post by camdenshrew on Nov 26, 2014 4:45:13 GMT 1
Exactly. The point about Whelan is that he was giving vent to a horrible stereotype that Jews are money-grabbers - something you could never accuse footballing types of, of course.
That to me smacks of a deep-seated and crass prejudice.This was not a case of somebody who was using a racial term which might have been deemed acceptable by teh mainstream a few years back but is no longer the case now. Old people can be racist as well and the fact he is prepared to employ a bigot like MacKay speaks volumes.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 26, 2014 9:01:50 GMT 1
I dunno. I think it is relevant. Terms that may have been the norm when Whelan was growing up may not be in this day and age. I'm in my early 40s and no doubt say things that aren't altogether PC but they are terms that I have used since I was a nipper. I think a little leeway is called for myself. How about the old duffer in the Cumbrian FA who told the lady ref that there was no place for women in the game and that they should get back in the kitchen where they belong, or words to that effect? Offensive and unacceptable these days, but common thinking among blokes of the old-timer's generation. Don't think age is much of an excuse myself, if you've lived through the times you know what is and isn't deemed acceptable by others even if your own perspectives haven't shifted with the times. I'm of a similar age to you Stutty (43) and I'm pretty sure that we both wouldn't dream of saying many of the things that people used to say fairly routinely in the 70's (about gender, sexuality, race, disabilities etc.) I didn't say many things but at times I'll come out with something that I doubt would be considered acceptable in this day and age. But eveno, I think the scenario regarding the Cumbrian FA chap is different. For me anyhows. His opinion is clearly discriminatory and considering his position is clearly unacceptable and he should not be in that position. But as I say, that's different...there is a world of difference between say... I think the chink lad at left back had a superb game... to... I don't want to see another chink playing at my club ever again, they are not welcome here. With Whelan we're looking to the first example. The Cumbrian FA chap the second. Very different for me.
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Post by jamo on Nov 26, 2014 10:08:48 GMT 1
I agree with Weelans comment re Chinqs Brits and Paddies!as well. Where's my tin hat! Never mind your tin hat. get your UKIP rossette on.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 10:44:55 GMT 1
I agree with Weelans comment re Chinqs Brits and Paddies!as well. Where's my tin hat! Never mind your tin hat. get your UKIP rossette on. I will bite I think you misunderstand, I did not say it was right or wrong to say Chinks Brits Paddies etc I was merely agreeing that it is still commonly used today by a percentage of all age groups who are unaware of it now being deemed offensive. There is a whole list seen as ofensive, additional to the above some used quite often by many on this messageboard, so people should be careful they are not being hypocritical. Ruski's Jocks, Taffy Frog Kraut Oriental Coloured Yank are just a few others... Also do people regard the above more offensive than callings someone a c*ck Tw*t, w***k*r etc etc
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Post by Exkeeper on Nov 26, 2014 11:23:17 GMT 1
Or even "sheep sh•ggers".
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Post by jamo on Nov 26, 2014 11:41:45 GMT 1
I personally hope Whelan and Mackay get what's coming.
Interesting to see the strong racist stuff from some of the usual supsects on here
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Post by jonbond on Nov 26, 2014 12:38:56 GMT 1
I personally hope Whelan and Mackay get what's coming. Interesting to see the strong racist stuff from some of the usual supsects on here Can you quantify what you mean by " get whats coming "
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Shrewsfan1985
The Loggerheads
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Post by Shrewsfan1985 on Nov 26, 2014 13:35:19 GMT 1
Former Cardiff City manager Malky Mackay has had his honorary membership of the club's supporters' trust withdrawn over his text messages scandal. The Football Association is investigating his conduct while at the club, following allegations he sent racist, sexist and homophobic messages. Cardiff City Supporters' Trust said its members had lobbied for him to be removed from his honorary role. Mackay is now Wigan Athletic manager. He was sacked acrimoniously by Cardiff City in December 2013 but was still supported by many of their fans. He was awarded honorary membership of the trust for his achievement in leading the Bluebirds into the Premier League in 2013, ending their 52-year exile from the English top flight. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-30195401
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Nov 26, 2014 17:35:10 GMT 1
I don't find what Whelan said offensive, for me saying that Jews 'chase money' is as much of a stereotype as the Germans being efficient or the British liking roast beef. Not ideal, slightly naive but certainly not in the category of being racist. As a person of Jewish heritage, does that give me any qualifications to pass judgement on this or do I have to bow to Rickerton's superior knowledge on this one? As shrewinjapan and I both stated, it's about historical context; the British have never been persecuted for their love of roast beef. You're well within your rights as a person of Jewish heritage to not personally take offence at Whelan's comments. Equally, your Jewish heritage doesn't mean you get to decide on behalf of the Jewish population as to whether or not the comments were offensive. Neither do the Jewish Leadership Council or the Board of Deputies of British Jews, but the fact that they both condemned the remarks suggests that it's not a laughable idea to suggest they were anti-Semitic. And the comments weren't made completely in isolation, a throwaway remark at a dinner party for example (not that in that context I'd consider them acceptable, but still.) They were racially insensitive comments used as part of a long-winded attempt to defend the appointment of a man currently under investigation by the FA for sending racist, sexist and homophobic texts. Of course that's important. I thought Football365 wrote a really good article about the whole affair and its importance, feel free to take a look and disagree here. I'm confused by the historial context point. I think if we're comparing a sweeping, and generally inoffensive comment about Jewish people being successful business people with Hitler's justification for exterminating six million Jewish people then we've lost all grasp on reality. Whelan apologised for the comments presumably because the professionally offended would be baying for his blood and comparing him to 20th Century dictators if he hadn't. The 'chink' comment as I said is naive but the implication that most of us at one time of our lives have used a term like that is right, of course we have. And if we haven't then I think we're telling porkies. In my opinion you have to understand the context of how it was said rather than what is implied. An example is when you get Manchester United fans who say they support 'Man U' - when the term Man U was originally used in a song to mock the Munich Air Disaster. Some people get offended by this but I generally associate 'Man U' with armchair United fans from Surrey rather than get all offended by something that was at one point used as a way to cause offence but now is simply used as a colloquial term or abbreviation. No one should have a monopoly on taking offence to things but keeping up to date with political correctness is a full time job these days. We will all fall foul of it one day.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 17:41:26 GMT 1
Leicester is right, most of us have used the term "chink" at some point. Though in fairness I stopped when I was about 13 years old.
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Post by callum on Nov 26, 2014 21:14:12 GMT 1
Is it just me or do people get upset to easily over the slightest things? Its not as if Mackay shouted it from the rooftops its was private texts that were in all probability sent as banter. Who hasn't had a racist/sexist joke on their phone,not many i would imagine.
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Shrewsfan1985
The Loggerheads
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Post by Shrewsfan1985 on Nov 27, 2014 22:56:55 GMT 1
Wigan chairman Dave Whelan has been charged by the Football Association over comments he made about Jewish and Chinese people in an interview. Whelan, 77, has apologised for the comments and has until 18:00 GMT on 5 December to respond to the FA charge. It is alleged his original statements were "abusive and/or insulting and/or constitute improper conduct and/or bring the game into disrepute". Whelan has also insisted that he was misquoted in the newspaper interview. He has previously said he will resign from his position at the Latics if the FA punishes him for the controversy. Whelan made the comments to The Guardian while defending his decision to appoint Malky Mackay as Wigan manager, who is still being investigated by the FA over claims the Scot sent texts of a homophobic, racist and sexist nature while in charge at Cardiff. The charge includes an alleged "aggravated breach" of FA Rule E3 [2] as Whelan's comments included "a reference to ethnic origin and/or race and/or nationality and/or religion or belief". Whelan, who played for Blackburn and Crewe during his career, became chairman of Wigan Athletic in February 1995, with the side in the third tier of English football. Ten years later they won promotion to the Premier League for the first time and spent eight years there before winning the FA Cup in 2013 - the first major trophy in their history. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30236333
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Shrewsfan1985
The Loggerheads
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My first team is..: Shrewsbury
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Post by Shrewsfan1985 on Nov 29, 2014 11:28:56 GMT 1
Wigan manager Malky Mackay has revealed that Grant Holt will be part of his plans when the striker returns from his loan at spell Huddersfield. The 33-year-old is with the Terriers until January, where he has scored twice in 10 appearances. Holt struggled under former Latics boss Uwe Rosler, spending the second part of last season at Aston Villa. "He's an experienced top player and we need as many good players at the club as possible," said Mackay. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30244449
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Shrewsfan1985
The Loggerheads
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My first team is..: Shrewsbury
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Post by Shrewsfan1985 on Dec 6, 2014 1:50:54 GMT 1
Wigan chairman Dave Whelan has been given another week to respond to an FA charge over comments he made about Jewish and Chinese people. The 78-year-old had until 18:00 GMT on 5 December to answer the charge but requested an extension after taking legal advice. This has been granted. Whelan has denied making racist remarks and insists he was misquoted. He has also apologised for any offence caused and warned he will resign from his position at Wigan if punished. Whichever way Whelan pleads next week, a three-person independent regulatory commission will be set up to hear the case. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30338539
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