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Post by neilsalop on Sept 1, 2014 9:18:48 GMT 1
Unfortunately if you back through history there are always religious wars and it is always down to one religion or strain of that religion trying impose its doctrine on anyone else. The problem is these days is we've medieval religions (IMO) in Judaism and Islam using 21st century weapons to put their points across.
Judaism wants to infiltrate every government, every corporation and run them how they see fit.
Extreme Islam wants to destroy every government and corporation.
Jews want to live in every country and live on the verges of the local rules.
Extreme Islam wants to live in every country and then change that country to their rules.
Don't get me wrong I believe that most Jews and Muslims want to be the best they can be and bring their families into the modern age, but there are too many that would hold back progress.
The first step in this country I believe would be to abolish single faith schools. When Jewish, Muslim, Catholic and CofE kids are integrated on a daily basis there might be a fighting chance of them actually getting on.
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Post by highlandshrew on Sept 1, 2014 9:27:46 GMT 1
IS are a pretty vile bunch who seem determined to reenact the appalling slaughter and barbarism of the crusades in the 21st century. I don't really understand though where they get there money from to maintane an army. Must cost a lot and surely such funds could be tracked and frozen? They have a revenue estimated to be £40 million a week from supporters world wide including the UK but mainly oil revenue and spoils of war.... The worrying thing is the most hard line, brutal are from the UK, with many being protected by 'brothers' living in our communities! This is the most serious threat to world peace let alone our own security since WW2, and before they start it's nothing to do with us invading Iraq or involvement in Afganistan and will require massive world forces raising against them on the ground, with increasing troubles here due to the islamic support amoung UK muslims... a minority yes but still a massive threat Oh dear perhaps not the place for this debate but had to happen I'm not wanting to understate the current crisis, but I think the Cuban missile crisis was a far greater threat to world peace and our own security than the current problem.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 9:46:42 GMT 1
It’s a real shame that what has the potential to become a good discussion/debate gets spoilt by petty childish squabbles, cheap personal point scoring and entrenched dogma.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Sept 1, 2014 10:12:38 GMT 1
It’s a real shame that what has the potential to become a good discussion/debate gets spoilt by petty childish squabbles, cheap personal point scoring and entrenched dogma. Welcome to politics!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 10:17:22 GMT 1
It’s a real shame that what has the potential to become a good discussion/debate gets spoilt by petty childish squabbles, cheap personal point scoring and entrenched dogma. Welcome to politics! It’s not politics in this case.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Sept 1, 2014 10:58:14 GMT 1
It’s not politics in this case. What our domestic policy and foreign policy should be considering a perceived or actual threat is politics.
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Post by sussexshrew on Sept 1, 2014 12:05:54 GMT 1
From NeilSalop:
"The first step in this country I believe would be to abolish single faith schools. When Jewish, Muslim, Catholic and CofE kids are integrated on a daily basis there might be a fighting chance of them actually getting on."
I couldn't agree more Neil. I shook my head in disbelief when from the Blair government onward, this policy has been so fervently encouraged. We look to our kids for a united future; but educate them with our divided past.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 13:49:48 GMT 1
It’s not politics in this case. What our domestic policy and foreign policy should be considering a perceived or actual threat is politics. I think we’re at cross purposes. I’m talking about the small minded bickering, and labelling of individuals on this thread.
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Post by davycrockett on Sept 1, 2014 16:45:10 GMT 1
They have a revenue estimated to be £40 million a week from supporters world wide including the UK but mainly oil revenue and spoils of war.... The worrying thing is the most hard line, brutal are from the UK, with many being protected by 'brothers' living in our communities! This is the most serious threat to world peace let alone our own security since WW2, and before they start it's nothing to do with us invading Iraq or involvement in Afganistan and will require massive world forces raising against them on the ground, with increasing troubles here due to the islamic support amoung UK muslims... a minority yes but still a massive threat Oh dear perhaps not the place for this debate but had to happen I'm not wanting to understate the current crisis, but I think the Cuban missile crisis was a far greater threat to world peace and our own security than the current problem. short lived sabre rattling, history will show this as a worse threat.....
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Post by venceremos on Sept 1, 2014 17:03:27 GMT 1
What our domestic policy and foreign policy should be considering a perceived or actual threat is politics. I think we’re at cross purposes. I’m talking about the small minded bickering, and labelling of individuals on this thread. It's entrenched in the history, nicko. It will probably take generations to heal the scars. I'm talking about b&a, by the way.
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Post by venceremos on Sept 1, 2014 17:17:16 GMT 1
I'm not wanting to understate the current crisis, but I think the Cuban missile crisis was a far greater threat to world peace and our own security than the current problem. short lived sabre rattling, history will show this as a worse threat..... Easy to dismiss it so lightly with the hindsight of 50 years. Official documents have shown just how close it came to the missiles firing. There's no question that was a massively greater threat to world peace and security; millions would have died and the world we know might well have ended. For all the shocking news stories, the IS problem remains largely one of localised warfare. There's nothing new in barbarism. Do we believe earlier wars were fought in gentlemanly fashion, with no innocent victims? Of course IS is a big security threat but some perspective is needed. The general population of the UK is under less of a direct threat than it was during the Irish "troubles". There's still a threat, but that doesn't make Cameron's comments any less lacking in historical perspective. No surprise there though, the man's a dishonest idiot. IS isn't going to overthrow the UK, or any western government. If you're a westerner in the Middle East, you're at risk, but that's been the case for a long time.
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Post by venceremos on Sept 1, 2014 17:21:40 GMT 1
Ah, I dunno what all the fuss is about. Innocent people being beheaded, the cleansing of ethnic minorities, the UK responsible for supplying more terrorists than any other state. Nothing that we didn't do in the medieval times though, eh? As long as the lick spittle left continue hating themselves for what their great great great great great grandfathers might have done in nomadic times, we'll turn a blind eye to our kids being groomed in Rotherham or the ethnic cleansing taking place all over the Arab world, all in the name of not wanting to put a few noses out of joint. And sussexshrew can simply contend that it's a Shia/Sunni fight, maybe we should just let them get on with it? Go to Winchester until it all blows over and we can carry on living in this multi-cultural utopia without fear of attack or prejudice. Oh but dose poor kids in Palestine dough... *shakes fist* Is there something in the water in Leicester? You and lcfcgrewks make a right pair. Good of you to make a joke about other people's suffering though. Possibly a new low, even for you.
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 1, 2014 19:48:51 GMT 1
Amazing. A pretty poor attempt at banter by a minute section of Town fans warrants the very deepest condemnation from vencemeros, but for anyone who dare speak out and show any concern about a global terrorist network who decapitate people for fun and commit mass genocide against ethnic groups, they `lack perspective`. You could not write this sh*t Welcome to Blair`s Britain folks. Still alive and kicking.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 20:24:39 GMT 1
Personally I’m more worried about the subtle escalation of the war in Ukraine.
An attack on this country by operatives of ISIS may have short term physical implications any escalation in the Ukraine can be damaging in many more serious ways.
Particularly for free market economies.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 21:47:03 GMT 1
Did cameron really say that? The V2 was more of a threat than ISIS.
Not got much to offer on this thread apart from that.
I've just finished Soldaten, the German academic book on the POW tapes from WW2. An incredible and deeply uncomfortable read, but also backed up with great stuff that challenges assumptions we have about Japanese soldiers being prepared to die, German Wehrmacht being ideologically driven, etc etc.
Helped me advance my thinking on some of this stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 21:59:41 GMT 1
I've just finished Soldaten, the German academic book on the POW tapes from WW2. An incredible and deeply uncomfortable read, but also backed up with great stuff that challenges assumptions we have about Japanese soldiers being prepared to die, German Wehrmacht being ideologically driven, etc etc. Helped me advance my thinking on some of this stuff. Funny I finished reading that the other week. I read it as a follow up to some work I did on the extermination of various groups in Eastern Europe. I suspect that you are referring to the idea of ‘ideological soldiers’ and how (mis) education leads to radicalisation and the justification of atrocities and genocide. It becomes engrained in a society where though methods of disposal of peoples may vary (deportation over death camps) the united belief is that “something must be done.” And to think that total indoctrination only ten or so years, though rooted in decades long animosity.
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Post by mattmw on Sept 1, 2014 22:20:30 GMT 1
An attack on this country by operatives of ISIS may have short term physical implications any escalation in the Ukraine can be damaging in many more serious ways. Yeh I was a little confused about Cameron's reference to security in relation to ISIS rather than terrorism. Certainly the idea of radicalised, trained ISIS members returning to the UK is scary and has potential for terrorist attacks here. We need to do all we can to avoid that but should they happen we have survived these as a nation and over time you would hope the intelligence forces would get evidence of where and how such attacks might happen as the did with the IRA and Islamic groups The references to security hint at something wider like an infiltration of our security networks or major infrastructure bringing major changes to day to day life. As you say a major fall out in Russia would have much more of a overall security implication for the UK. It's really a collapse of our economic networks that are the big threat to national security
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 22:59:08 GMT 1
If their is any thing positive too come out of fighting ISIS is (That's a lot of is's isn't it) that Kurd's, Sunni's and Shia enemies in Iraq have united to defeat ISIS and we even have Iran condoning US Air force strikes against them. It appears that no State or ethnic region wants anything to do with them if closer understanding and respect comes out of working together for all involved in defeating them could this be a catalyst for Peace in the region? Syria is far more complex but the rebels fighting Assad wouldn't want an ISIS state, and both would possibly welcome strikes against them. Their rule of extreme violence of trying to eliminate all that slightly disagree with them will not last they would have constant uprisings attempting to defeat them and has an organisation ever galvanised so much support from those trying to eradicate it?
The Ukraine & Russia is more of a threat. How far could Europe go in terms of sanctioning Russia? As Winter approaches it will still be responsible for supplying much of it's Gas. It could freeze Ukraine if it wished. Who needs who most? Russian trade with Europe or Europe's need for it's resources?
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Post by venceremos on Sept 1, 2014 23:35:56 GMT 1
Amazing. A pretty poor attempt at banter by a minute section of Town fans warrants the very deepest condemnation from vencemeros, but for anyone who dare speak out and show any concern about a global terrorist network who decapitate people for fun and commit mass genocide against ethnic groups, they `lack perspective`. You could not write this sh*t Welcome to Blair`s Britain folks. Still alive and kicking. Banter, eh? Was your pathetic joke about Palestinian kids "banter" too? Seems like you can get away with anything under this banter umbrella. Not sure why you should take offence when I talk about a lack of perspective. The same point has been made by others. It's a matter of opinion but I maintain that if you step back from the immediate noise surrounding IS, it's hard to see how it threatens worldwide security more than the Cuban missile crisis did. The war in Ukraine is probably more of a threat, as has already been said here. But then I wouldn't expect you to break the habit of a lifetime and engage in rational debate. Weird reference to Blair's Britain there. You on medication?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 7:07:47 GMT 1
An attack on this country by operatives of ISIS may have short term physical implications any escalation in the Ukraine can be damaging in many more serious ways. Certainly the idea of radicalised, trained ISIS members returning to the UK is scary and has potential for terrorist attacks here. I read a theory the other day that suggested when the survivors return from these conflict zones they will find that the quite virtues of a liberal democracy are much better than the chaos and terror of war and an ‘Islamic state’. In other words they have had enough of conflict. Anyone who has been in a war zone will know what I mean. I’m sure there will be the odd exception though.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Sept 2, 2014 9:16:13 GMT 1
I see Cameron has had to back down on one or two things he had planned to stop people returning. He's making himself look a tad silly in all this, pushing out sound bites without really thinking things through.
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Sept 2, 2014 19:42:37 GMT 1
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Post by QuorndonShrew on Sept 2, 2014 19:55:21 GMT 1
Amazing. A pretty poor attempt at banter by a minute section of Town fans warrants the very deepest condemnation from vencemeros, but for anyone who dare speak out and show any concern about a global terrorist network who decapitate people for fun and commit mass genocide against ethnic groups, they `lack perspective`. You could not write this sh*t Welcome to Blair`s Britain folks. Still alive and kicking. Banter, eh? Was your pathetic joke about Palestinian kids "banter" too? Seems like you can get away with anything under this banter umbrella. Not sure why you should take offence when I talk about a lack of perspective. The same point has been made by others. It's a matter of opinion but I maintain that if you step back from the immediate noise surrounding IS, it's hard to see how it threatens worldwide security more than the Cuban missile crisis did. The war in Ukraine is probably more of a threat, as has already been said here. But then I wouldn't expect you to break the habit of a lifetime and engage in rational debate. Weird reference to Blair's Britain there. You on medication? Pathetic joke about Palestine? Sorry, what? Or is this just another example of you taking offence on behalf of a nationality/race of people you don't belong to when there was nothing to be offended about in the first place? Unless of course you are a mixed race Luton supporting Palestinian, in which case I apologise for your lack of sense of humour.
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Post by jamo on Sept 2, 2014 21:04:34 GMT 1
Banter eh ? Harmless stuff isn't it.
Wonder if I.S. consider themselves engaged in some sort of religious cleansing banter ?
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O/T ISIS
Sept 2, 2014 22:57:32 GMT 1
via mobile
Post by SY3 on Sept 2, 2014 22:57:32 GMT 1
I just turned on fox news for coverage of latest American to be beheaded by that 'British' terrorist. I was so shocked to see a panel of 5 journalists speaking the truth. I am so used to the biased sky news and the BBC pussy footing around to avoid offending Muslims. It was refreshing to listen to. They were saying the returning 'British' terrorists should be rendered stateless and their families threatened with the same fate. They mentioned England since opening the floodgates has been paralysed by the PC brigade. They also touched on the Muslim pedo gangs in Rotherham saying victims were put on diversity courses instead of being taken seriously. Certainly was refreshing to hear educated people saying it how it is for once and not desperately trying to hold on to their liberal halo.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Sept 2, 2014 23:58:12 GMT 1
You can't just render people stateless. It's against international law. Following such laws and respecting human rights is what stands us apart from these barbarian thugs. If they are known to have engaged in terrorist activities overseas then arrest and charge them on their return.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 10:04:35 GMT 1
Fox News. Blimey.
Let’s just remember that the USA is the sort of place where unarmed people are routinely shot and peaceful demonstrators are confronted by a police force better armed and equipped than some state armies.
It’s the sort of place were journalists are ‘detained’ for reporting on the above.
The British media has its faults, but it can’t accused of the sort of bias that Fox News transmits.
Of course Fox News and the mouthpieces they employ will spout hard-line nonsense it’s owned by the ultra conservative Murdoch. Personally I prefer my news balanced and without hysteria.
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Post by venceremos on Sept 3, 2014 16:18:43 GMT 1
Banter, eh? Was your pathetic joke about Palestinian kids "banter" too? Seems like you can get away with anything under this banter umbrella. Not sure why you should take offence when I talk about a lack of perspective. The same point has been made by others. It's a matter of opinion but I maintain that if you step back from the immediate noise surrounding IS, it's hard to see how it threatens worldwide security more than the Cuban missile crisis did. The war in Ukraine is probably more of a threat, as has already been said here. But then I wouldn't expect you to break the habit of a lifetime and engage in rational debate. Weird reference to Blair's Britain there. You on medication? Pathetic joke about Palestine? Sorry, what? Or is this just another example of you taking offence on behalf of a nationality/race of people you don't belong to when there was nothing to be offended about in the first place? Unless of course you are a mixed race Luton supporting Palestinian, in which case I apologise for your lack of sense of humour. Now I wonder who posted this: "Oh but dose poor kids in Palestine dough... *shakes fist*" Oh, it was you, remember now? Anyone else out there find that remotely funny? You know, jokes about kids being killed and maimed? Maybe it's just you LSF. Let's hope so. Had you forgotten? Or wasn't it meant to be a joke? Perhaps you were making a serious point there, it's hard to tell with you sometimes; everything just tends to merge into a nonsensical mush that even you struggle to make sense of afterwards. And I didn't realise you had to belong to a particular group before you could find something offensive. Well if that's the case, feel free to joke about rape (I'm not a woman), disability (I'm not disabled), paedophilia (I'm not a child), anti-semitism (I'm not Jewish) - blimey, the field's wide open for you. I don't doubt that you have many things to apologise for but you needn't apologise for my supposed lack of sense of humour. I'd worry about your own first.
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Post by venceremos on Sept 3, 2014 16:56:37 GMT 1
I just turned on fox news for coverage of latest American to be beheaded by that 'British' terrorist. I was so shocked to see a panel of 5 journalists speaking the truth. I am so used to the biased sky news and the BBC pussy footing around to avoid offending Muslims. It was refreshing to listen to. They were saying the returning 'British' terrorists should be rendered stateless and their families threatened with the same fate. They mentioned England since opening the floodgates has been paralysed by the PC brigade. They also touched on the Muslim pedo gangs in Rotherham saying victims were put on diversity courses instead of being taken seriously. Certainly was refreshing to hear educated people saying it how it is for once and not desperately trying to hold on to their liberal halo. OK SY3, since you've been learning so much at that bastion of objectivity and knowledge that is Fox News, why not educate the rest of us then? How does that linkage between an atrocity in Syria/Iraq and criminality in Rotherham work? I'd like to hear that theory. How exactly has England (not the rest of Britain?) been paralysed since these floodgates opened? I wasn't aware of that but then perhaps I wasn't paying attention. I look at our political leaders, our military leaders, our business leaders, our establishment, our media - all looks to me pretty much as it has been all my life. A few more women, a bit more skin colour but generally as male and as white as it always was. Are you telling me these people are members of some secret anti-western conspiracy or something? Were any of these truth-speakers American by any chance? Were the "floodgates" comments a bit , by any chance? I hope so, otherwise don't you think it'd be a bit of a cheek for someone from a country built on immigration to lecture other countries about their immigration policies? Still, these are clever folk you reckon and not in any way biased. How refreshing.
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Post by TheFoz on Sept 3, 2014 20:24:03 GMT 1
Fox News. Blimey. Let’s just remember that the USA is the sort of place where unarmed people are routinely shot and peaceful demonstrators are confronted by a police force better armed and equipped than some state armies. It’s the sort of place were journalists are ‘detained’ for reporting on the above. The British media has its faults, but it can’t accused of the sort of bias that Fox News transmits. Of course Fox News and the mouthpieces they employ will spout hard-line nonsense it’s owned by the ultra conservative Murdoch. Personally I prefer my news balanced and without hysteria. Just saw this today with Russell Brand on Fox News, well worth a watch.
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