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Post by lenny on Jul 21, 2014 14:24:40 GMT 1
Stokes has bowled fairly well in fairness. I'd personally take Broad out, he looks like the injuries are catching up with him and spoke before the series about how he would need a rest. Not entirely convinced by Robson, but I maintain my belief that Cook will see out the series at least. I'd certainly like to see Lyth being given a chance soon, he's been phenomenal this season. Hales is also starting to show his T20 ability in the longer format, and it would be nice to have an aggressive top-order batsman for a change. Someone like Vince will be putting the pressure on Bell - whose run without a century can't be much longer than Cook's, and Buttler's shadow is looming over Prior (although I still harbour doubts about his keeping and someone like Foster - keeper captain - might be a better short-term option). It's all a bit of a problem, Root and Ballance are probably the only two players who have consistently performed well this summer.
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Post by venceremos on Jul 21, 2014 14:47:21 GMT 1
Wow - a run out to seal the loss. England take ineptitude to new depths. Clear out and restart needed, starting with the captain.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Jul 21, 2014 14:49:02 GMT 1
Farcical end to a farcical performance from England. Heads must roll. Utterly pathetic. Michael Vaughn sounded so frustrated, disappointed, disgusted and angry that he was almost going to cry.
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Post by Rusholme Ruffian on Jul 21, 2014 15:01:06 GMT 1
Not watching this morning but no surprise to see them knocked over.
Three more test matches this summer is it? Doubt much will be altered for those but unless miracles happen some serious changes will have to come about.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 15:09:49 GMT 1
After the beard that's feared went, the lunatics over the asylum.
After Australia Flower (failed and replaced), Miller (gone).
Now we have a captain previously who failed and should never have been allowed to continue. Moores who had previously failed and brought back in to fail again. A bowling coach who doesn't seem to know how to coach his bowlers in any given situation, and who also failed in Australia (Saker). A chairmen of cricket, Downton, who cannot keep his gob shut without putting his foot in it.Is it Whittaker, chief selector who picks cock-eyed teams?
Is it any coincidence that our last 2 successful coaches were not British? Arm twisting was called for to obtain Gillespie or Moody or others in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 18:10:51 GMT 1
As Victor Meldrew would say...I don't believe it!!!
I went into a afternoon workshop at 1pm with England (Ali & Root) doing ok...I come out at 4pm to hear England had lost the test...
I shall watch the verdict on sky tv tonight with interest, Bob Willis I'm sure will pull no punches in his assessment that's for sure.
Hats off to India, that was a great win, especially so given that the pitch was tailor made for our seam bowlers, just a pity that they couldn't exploit the conditions.
But it is the batting that really concerns me, our senior players, Cook, Bell & Prior are just not performing with the bat and it has become painful to watch the demise (temporary I hope) of captain Cook. Trying to regain your form in a test match and under the glare of the media, scrutinising your every move...no, not right, not right at all.
The danger now is that England could go back to the old days and we'll see a knee jerk reaction with too much chopping and changing. I think we just have to accept that England are in transition and that any changes made must be for the long term benefit of the team.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 18:23:30 GMT 1
Stokes has bowled fairly well in fairness. But if he is to be the future all rounder then he needs to rediscover his batting form, 2 ducks in this test match. I think in his last 9 international games for England ( Tests, ODIs and T20s) he averages 2! His 120 in the Perth test seems a long time ago now.
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Post by lenny on Jul 21, 2014 18:38:14 GMT 1
Stokes has bowled fairly well in fairness. But if he is to be the future all rounder then he needs to rediscover his batting form, 2 ducks in this test match. I think in his last 9 international games for England ( Tests, ODIs and T20s) he averages 2! His 120 in the Perth test seems a long time ago now. Does he have to be an all-rounder? He can be a bowler who bats like Broad, Plunkett and Jordan. Mind you at present he is just a bowler! Complaints on the batting form of a number 8 aren't really the main concern and shouldn't be - the failure of all batsmen bar Ballance, Root and arguably Ali has thrown that into focus. For our more pressing concerns, we have our bowlers bowling badly, our batters batting badly, our captain failing badly and a general lack of direction.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 20:17:20 GMT 1
But if he is to be the future all rounder then he needs to rediscover his batting form, 2 ducks in this test match. I think in his last 9 international games for England ( Tests, ODIs and T20s) he averages 2! His 120 in the Perth test seems a long time ago now. Does he have to be an all-rounder? He can be a bowler who bats like Broad, Plunkett and Jordan. Mind you at present he is just a bowler! Complaints on the batting form of a number 8 aren't really the main concern and shouldn't be - the failure of all batsmen bar Ballance, Root and arguably Ali has thrown that into focus. For our more pressing concerns, we have our bowlers bowling badly, our batters batting badly, our captain failing badly and a general lack of direction. I think his excellent 100 in the Perth test pushed him into the spotlight as a genuine future all-rounder and perhaps I'm being too overly critical of him as a result, perhaps I expect too much of him too soon.
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Post by lenny on Jul 21, 2014 20:31:57 GMT 1
Does he have to be an all-rounder? He can be a bowler who bats like Broad, Plunkett and Jordan. Mind you at present he is just a bowler! Complaints on the batting form of a number 8 aren't really the main concern and shouldn't be - the failure of all batsmen bar Ballance, Root and arguably Ali has thrown that into focus. For our more pressing concerns, we have our bowlers bowling badly, our batters batting badly, our captain failing badly and a general lack of direction. I think his excellent 100 in the Perth test pushed him into the spotlight as a genuine future all-rounder and perhaps I'm being too overly critical of him as a result, perhaps I expect too much of him too soon. I think that's fair - a bit like Tom Bradshaw!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 22:29:34 GMT 1
I think his excellent 100 in the Perth test pushed him into the spotlight as a genuine future all-rounder and perhaps I'm being too overly critical of him as a result, perhaps I expect too much of him too soon. I think that's fair - a bit like Tom Bradshaw! Please don't give him as many chances as Bradshaw. Anyway, I would never trust a lunatic who manages to break his hand in the way that Stokes did.
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Post by venceremos on Jul 21, 2014 23:12:56 GMT 1
I think that's fair - a bit like Tom Bradshaw! Please don't give him as many chances as Bradshaw. Anyway, I would never trust a lunatic who manages to break his hand in the way that Stokes did. That's passion for you! OK, maybe just immaturity or a suspect temperament.
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Post by vanner on Jul 22, 2014 1:40:29 GMT 1
2 elevens from me to stir up some debate.
11 strongest players solely for the next test
Cook Root Ballance KP Bell Ali Read Jordan Broad Plunkett Anderson
And the team we'll see will be something like:
Cook Robson Ballance Bell Root Ali Buttler Stokes/Kerrigan (depending on pitch and obviously Kerrigan goes down to 11 if he plays) Plunkett Broad Anderson/Jordan/Kerrigan (pending the ban result and the pitch)
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Post by shrewinjapan on Jul 22, 2014 1:52:32 GMT 1
Will be surprised if Broad isn't given a rest - he's clearly not bowling at 100%. Just seen Prior is standing down for the rest of this series and will probably have achilles surgery. Stresses he isn't retiring but realizes it may be hard to get his place back. www.bbc.com/sport/0/cricket/28413373
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 7:44:46 GMT 1
Shame that the 2 best keepers are approaching pensionable age - Read and Foster. It was the same a few years back when the stand out keepers were Rhodes and Russell. All seem to get better as they become older probably true also of Prior up to a couple of years ago and Stewart who improved immeasurably. Not forgetting Adam Gilchrist who did not make his test debut until a few days short of his 28th birthday.
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Post by bertymax on Jul 22, 2014 9:07:35 GMT 1
That could be the last we see of Matt Prior, injury aside, if he again bats like he did yesterday then I fear for him. It was clear he was carrying an injury though so you've got to question what the hell England were doing playing him when not fully fit in such a physically demanding role as wicketkeeper.
You know I might be a lone voice here but I'm not sure josh Buttler is the right person to replace Prior as he is being touted to do so, sure, he is a superb prospect and can certainly hold a bat but the role of wicketkeeper is a specialist position and it continues to be a bit of a bug bear for me that the ECB seem obsessed with the batting side of this dual role. While I understand whoever gets the nod must be able to hold a bat and add valuable runs lower down the order, personally I feel the prerequisite must always be the wicket keeping side of that dual role, yet the selectors in their desperation to find an English Gilchrist have continually overlooked the best glovemen in the English game (Chris Read and James foster) for the likes of Craig Bedwetter, Matt Prior, and now Josh Buttler all of whom are average glovemen at best, Christ even that ginger midget Bairstow is higher in the pecking order.
No disrespect to Buttler who certainly has potential with both the bat and the gloves but at the moment his keeping is no where near good enough, especially standing up to the stumps. If we had a proper wicketkeeper in there, someone who is going to take all the simple chances that come along as well as the majority of the difficult ones then ultimately this would result in opposition teams are bowled out quicker for less runs and places less reliance on a big hitting wicketkeeper coming in and blasting a very occasional 50. prior for example conceded a record number of byes in yesterday's defeat, to be fair to him partially due to some erratic brainless bowling from Broad and at times Plunkett exacerbated by his injury but nonetheless, his inability to take the chances when they came along throughout the whole 5 days indirectly cost us a huge amount of runs to the point he'd probably need to score a ton with hthe bat just to restore parity. With a better wicky in there, this net figure would be drastically reduced and besides, Foster and Chris Read are certainly no mugs with a cricket bat either.
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Post by lenny on Jul 22, 2014 10:42:59 GMT 1
Certainly not a lone voice, Berty. Personally I'd give Foster the next year or so. Offers leadership qualities and could help Cook and gives Buttler time to develop without standing in his way long-term.
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Post by siabod on Jul 22, 2014 11:14:38 GMT 1
Certainly not a lone voice, Berty. Personally I'd give Foster the next year or so. Offers leadership qualities and could help Cook and gives Buttler time to develop without standing in his way long-term. Can never understand why Foster never gets a mention, must eat his peas with his knife or similar, outstanding keeper for a long time. When the keeper's job is available not even the media seem to consider him.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 11:43:52 GMT 1
Why is Foster always touted so strongly? No better than Read. Added to that Foster is in the Second Division with ample resources to lead them out which he has failed to do. So his leadership comes into question and he has also been suspended for questionable on the field activities. Read, on the other hand, has led Notts to the County Championship and always has a decent batting average.
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Post by venceremos on Jul 22, 2014 12:02:02 GMT 1
I'm not a cricket aficionado but do follow it a bit (like many, I probably enjoy TMS as much as the sport itself) so perhaps some here who know more can enlighten me on a couple of points.
Didn't Brian Clough once say Peter Shilton was worth 10 points a season to Forest? Is there a comparable way of measuring the value of a specialist wicketkeeper to a Test team?
I wouldn't have a clue how to evaluate the merits of a specialist gloveman against those of a batsman/keeper but, in the context of an England team with such fragile batting, I can understand why a keeper who can bat will get the nod.
Second point is why do England have no spinners any more? Was Swann really the last of the line? What happened with Panesar and why is he persona non grata these days? Seems to me if Panesar's Test career is over, England really should be bringing Kerrigan (or AN Other) into the team now. They can't bowl seam and a part time spinner all the time and a proper spinner's not going to become any more experienced without playing. Surely it's better to take it on the chin and try someone (or a few)? How much worse can it get?!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 12:52:43 GMT 1
Why is Foster always touted so strongly? No better than Read. Added to that Foster is in the Second Division with ample resources to lead them out which he has failed to do. So his leadership comes into question and he has also been suspended for questionable on the field activities. Read, on the other hand, has led Notts to the County Championship and always has a decent batting average. Chris Read has been one of the if not the best English glovemen in the last 10 years or so. He is no mug with the bat either and in the championship this season is averaging a decent 45 with the bat, a better average than Buttler & Foster at the moment. I however expect England to respond to the clamour and pick Joss Buttler to replace Prior, even though Buttler is very much work in progress when it comes to his keeping.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Jul 22, 2014 13:01:23 GMT 1
Why is Foster always touted so strongly? No better than Read. Added to that Foster is in the Second Division with ample resources to lead them out which he has failed to do. So his leadership comes into question and he has also been suspended for questionable on the field activities. Read, on the other hand, has led Notts to the County Championship and always has a decent batting average. Chris Read has been one of the if not the best English glovemen in the last 10 years or so. He is no mug with the bat either and in the championship this season is averaging a decent 45 with the bat, a better average than Buttler & Foster at the moment. I however expect England to respond to the clamour and pick Joss Buttler to replace Prior, even though Buttler is very much work in progress when it comes to his keeping. Makes sense to play Buttler imho. Sure he's a work in progress, but he's a long term prospect. Read would only be considered an interim keeper because of his age. Good for Buttler to gain high-level experience with a view towards the world cup and ashes next year. And he can't do any worse than Prior has this summer.
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Post by supermac11 on Jul 22, 2014 13:03:30 GMT 1
As a Lancs supporter I've seen a fair bit of Kerrigan and a little bit of Buttler. Kerrigan is a promising young spin bowler who seems to have gone backwards. I don't think he was well managed last year by England and I noticed they've fiddled with his action over the winter which I'm not sure has helped. I don't think he's ready and certainly not against Indian batsman. I also reckon the public rubbishing of him by some journalists and ex-pros must be tough to take. He has talent but needs more time. As for Butler his batting in the one day stuff is fantastic (I've not seen an English batsman hit the ball so hard) and he's shown improvement batting wise in the longer format as well. His keeping this season however has been mediocre at best for Lancs. Whilst this can be improved he doesn't look like a natural behind the stumps.
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Post by lenny on Jul 27, 2014 19:43:32 GMT 1
Promising start. Runs for Cook after a stroke of luck, and hopefully he can build on that because one score on its own isn't enough. Ballance looks like a cracking player wherever he's batting, and with Trott scoring a century for Warwickshire last week we might have a nice question to answer over the next year or so. Bell not looking entirely convincing yet but hopefully can make the most of his reprieve like Cook.
Probably end up petering out into another draw, Hants' pitch is always a decent batting one. Hopefully the rain stays away tomorrow and Buttler gets a chance for a one-day style knock if we're in a good position, though. Also there is never any safe time to assume a draw with this England team!
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Post by thesensationaljt on Jul 27, 2014 20:20:21 GMT 1
When I suggested to the dragon we might have a game of naughty nanas tonight, I received a short pitched one that nipped back and caught me a painful blow on the inside of the thigh. So it doesn't look as if I'll finish up on a sticky wicket.
Owzat?
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Post by vanner on Jul 27, 2014 22:54:23 GMT 1
Trott's form is improving with each game. After a hundred for the 2nd 11 his last few scores are: 23, 19, 76, 106, 1, 78. All against top attacks too. I'd love to see him back as he's my favourite player.
Great days cricket, it was the Cook of old, grinding the opposition into the dirt. Such a shame he got out in the fashion he did. Hopefully Ballance can score a 'daddy' and we'll post 450!
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Post by shrewinjapan on Jul 28, 2014 13:09:46 GMT 1
Good first session, just a shame that GB got sawn off by Tucker. Looking like we should get over 500 now. If Root and Bell can bat steady for an hour or so then it could be carnage if Butller and our free-swinging tail have a slog this afternoon.
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Post by vanner on Jul 28, 2014 13:35:31 GMT 1
111 runs in 29 overs today, should look to score about that rate if not slightly more (4.5 an over should be really be the goal). In 45 more overs we'll be on about 550 or so ideally and then we can declare and have 12-15 overs at them tonight.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 13:45:55 GMT 1
Time to tell the Indians to get stuffed over DRS. After all, they also could have had Bell out for 0, although not an obvious mistake. It was designed to stop cock-ups like that of Tucker.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Jul 28, 2014 14:11:43 GMT 1
Gone a bit slow since lunch. Come on lads, try to push on a little bit now.
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