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Post by davycrockett on Oct 18, 2011 21:26:09 GMT 1
The spazzy "Mallet gang" in block 9 come out with the odd line, especially the really immature man who shouts gibberish for 90 minutes, and has a face that looks like it's been hit with a shovel. On a thread against racisms great to see other politically incorrect prejudice's like Spazzy being used to describe fellow fans whoever they are Perhaps another job for Shrek
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Oct 18, 2011 21:28:51 GMT 1
The spazzy "Mallet gang" in block 9 come out with the odd line, especially the really immature man who shouts gibberish for 90 minutes, and has a face that looks like it's been hit with a shovel. On a thread against racisms great to see other politically incorrect prejudice's like Spazzy being used to describe fellow fans whoever they are Perhaps another job for Shrek Oh behave.
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Post by davycrockett on Oct 18, 2011 21:34:29 GMT 1
;D
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Post by Fingers on Oct 18, 2011 23:23:55 GMT 1
Bit of a semantic argument that one. Take away the "c***" and put in something much milder like, say, "fool" or "idiot". Then call someone a "black fool" or "black idiot". Is that racist? I suspect the recipient would think so - so the use of the word "black" in a pejorative sense by a white person is likely to be considered racist. You can't make a comparison with "white" because this country has a white majority and you can't really persecute a majority. In some circumstances, a white person might be in a minority and could be subject to abuse based on their colour - but a white player on an English football pitch is very far from those circumstances. Besides which, in a predominantly white society, a white person wouldn't single out another white person based on the colour of their skin. That wouldn't make sense. A black person could be singled out in that way although, since most teams now have a lot of non-white players, it's a pretty stupid comment to make (apart from any racist aspect). The point is not just about racial difference; race is a means by which a minority is picked on. Having said that I'm surprised at the suggestion that there's overt racism amongst Town's support. An occasional (but longstanding) Town watcher did say to me after the Arsenal game (following some things she witnessed there) that she'd always thought there was a racist element but it's not something I'd noticed. But then I try to think the best of people (until they prove otherwise) and didn't think anyone would be that stupid in the 21st century. If we have abusive racist fans, they should be banned on the grounds of being irredeemably stupid, never mind the offence they cause. on that logic would it be as bad as calling someone a ginger c***?? it is a grey area. if a group of none-white people called me a white idiot etc i would be more insulted by the idiot comment than the white bit due to me being white. if someone gets upset by someone stating the colour of there skin then they must think that its a bad thing that they are that colour due to getting insulted. I am white and never been racially abused so i can never fully understand what it feels like, but to me white, black or purple coloured skin does not matter so dont understand why it would offend someone if they belive the same. That's exactly the point - add in the adjective of colour and it becomes racist? Why so? It is ott in my opinion and paves the way for the ridiculous claims we see today where people have to be so careful not to offend someone due to colour preferences. On the subject of racist abuse I really hope if anyone was abusing any of our players in that way that they are found, named and shamed. No place for any abuse to be tolerated. No room for 'We hate Wales' either.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Oct 19, 2011 0:03:30 GMT 1
Thanks 'Shrek'. Interestingly the bunch of idiots who spoilt the otherwise jovial 'craic' (Irish word for 'banter') at the Crawley game called the Crawley security guy 'Shrek'. Any connection to you? The racist comment I heard ("Black c***") was from another part of the crowd (behind the goal). Last time I heard a similar comment was from a Town fan at Aldershot some 5 or 6 years ago. Infrequent I am pleased to say. How is that racist? If someone called wroe a white c*** is that racist. When someone calls someone a c*** generally is it perceived that there is no need for an adjective relating to the colour of that persons skin? For the record JG is black, I most certainly do not think he is a c***. That might be the most ridiculous arguement ever put forward on this board. Calling someone a "black c***" is about as racist as it gets. If a Japanese person called me a "white c***" (not that they would) I'd consider it racist.
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Post by grinfish on Oct 19, 2011 3:47:14 GMT 1
Singling out a characteristic of a person and using it for direct derogatory purposes is discrimination.
Use of colour is deemed (popularly, if not technically) Racist Use of gender is deemed Sexist Use of Age, Disability etc similarly so.
There is a bit of a fuzzy line that can be brought about where the description of the person is set apart from the actual insult, and intended purely to indicate to whom you are referring.
To demonstrate using the currently cited example:
"That guy's a black c***" is pretty much damn Racist.
"That black guy down there is a c***" could be deemed insulting/offensive, but not necessarily Racist, as the insult isn't necessarily tied to the person's characteristics.
So, Yes, calling Wroe a white c*** would indeed be Racist.
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Post by dick on Oct 19, 2011 6:35:33 GMT 1
..........so "Useless " is definately ok
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Post by venceremos on Oct 19, 2011 11:12:08 GMT 1
Bit of a semantic argument that one. Take away the "c***" and put in something much milder like, say, "fool" or "idiot". Then call someone a "black fool" or "black idiot". Is that racist? I suspect the recipient would think so - so the use of the word "black" in a pejorative sense by a white person is likely to be considered racist. You can't make a comparison with "white" because this country has a white majority and you can't really persecute a majority. In some circumstances, a white person might be in a minority and could be subject to abuse based on their colour - but a white player on an English football pitch is very far from those circumstances. Besides which, in a predominantly white society, a white person wouldn't single out another white person based on the colour of their skin. That wouldn't make sense. A black person could be singled out in that way although, since most teams now have a lot of non-white players, it's a pretty stupid comment to make (apart from any racist aspect). The point is not just about racial difference; race is a means by which a minority is picked on. Having said that I'm surprised at the suggestion that there's overt racism amongst Town's support. An occasional (but longstanding) Town watcher did say to me after the Arsenal game (following some things she witnessed there) that she'd always thought there was a racist element but it's not something I'd noticed. But then I try to think the best of people (until they prove otherwise) and didn't think anyone would be that stupid in the 21st century. If we have abusive racist fans, they should be banned on the grounds of being irredeemably stupid, never mind the offence they cause. on that logic would it be as bad as calling someone a ginger c***?? it is a grey area. if a group of none-white people called me a white idiot etc i would be more insulted by the idiot comment than the white bit due to me being white. if someone gets upset by someone stating the colour of there skin then they must think that its a bad thing that they are that colour due to getting insulted. I am white and never been racially abused so i can never fully understand what it feels like, but to me white, black or purple coloured skin does not matter so dont understand why it would offend someone if they belive the same. But that's my point. You're white in a predominantly white country, so why would you feel threatened by anyone singling out your skin colour? If you lived in, say, Zimbabwe, you might be a bit nervous if someone used "white" in conjunction with an insult, even more so if there was a crowd of non-whites there. That doesn't mean you think it bad to be white, it would just have marked you out as different from the majority and therefore in a position to be intimidated. If everyone thought like you, that skin colour didn't matter and would never think of using it in an abusive way, there wouldn't be a problem anywhere. As for "ginger", that's not an obviously racial characteristic so there's a difference. It's like any similar term though - it can be used in a jokey way with the tacit consent of the ginger one, or it can be used in an insensitive or bullying way to single someone out. It depends entirely on the context and the motive of the person using it. Unfortunately it has become a safe shock-term in the hands of lazy, slow-witted comedians (amateur and professional).
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Post by Hatfieldshrew on Oct 19, 2011 11:53:23 GMT 1
Can I ask what you would think if the person calling him Black was Black, is that racist then ?
The problem today is being called a Racist is the biggest taboo socially. E.G To say the N word if you are white, you are called a racist, but if you are black it's OK, which then becomes racist because you are not allowed to say something some one else can. Then you have to go by if it causes offence, which is just as bad, as to so it may, but to others it may not.
It more if the sentence or word meant to demean some one or is used to cause offence, and that person is different from you in a way, then that is racism.
So if some one used the C after the word black, and they are any other colour then black it's a racist comment.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 12:02:07 GMT 1
on that logic would it be as bad as calling someone a ginger c***?? it is a grey area. if a group of none-white people called me a white idiot etc i would be more insulted by the idiot comment than the white bit due to me being white. if someone gets upset by someone stating the colour of there skin then they must think that its a bad thing that they are that colour due to getting insulted. I am white and never been racially abused so i can never fully understand what it feels like, but to me white, black or purple coloured skin does not matter so dont understand why it would offend someone if they belive the same. But that's my point. You're white in a predominantly white country, so why would you feel threatened by anyone singling out your skin colour? If you lived in, say, Zimbabwe, you might be a bit nervous if someone used "white" in conjunction with an insult, even more so if there was a crowd of non-whites there. That doesn't mean you think it bad to be white, it would just have marked you out as different from the majority and therefore in a position to be intimidated. Since when has racism been defined as whether that race in the minority or not If I called someone a black **** then most people would agree that is racist. So similarly if someone called me a whte **** then that is racist - is it not? I thought racism was purely when people were targeted because of the colour of their skin, not because of the colour of their skin AND the fact that skin colour is in the minority? You say why should I be threatened if someone targeted me because of my skin colour and the fact Im in the majority. By that logic I should be able to go to places Jamacia and India and make any comments I like on the basis Id be in the minority. But the question is not whether I feel threatened or not, but why should I accept being targeted because of my skin colour, majority or not.
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Post by venceremos on Oct 19, 2011 13:20:38 GMT 1
These are fair points but I think there's a common sense test here. The "is it racist" question is surely secondary to the "is it offensive" one.
If someone in Shrewsbury calls me a white ****, I know it's offensive but I don't really care whether it's racist. If they're white then it's a ridiculous thing to say and if they're non-white then the "white" tag still isn't a big issue because I know I'm not going to be oppressed in any way in this country because of my colour. If I'm in a racial minority, I think that analysis is different.
Similarly, the use of the term "n*****" by one black to another could perhaps be racist in a strict sense but it's far less likely to be offensive than if a white person uses it. It denotes the taking over of an offensive term by its targets for their own purposes. The comparison could be made with the use of "queer" and other such terms within the gay community - it's just different when that group uses it.
I'm certainly not saying you can't be racist if you're in the minority. I'm saying that being singled out by your skin colour isn't such an issue if the person doing it is the same colour as you, and especially if you're in a place where that colour forms the majority.
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Post by davycrockett on Oct 19, 2011 13:35:37 GMT 1
So whats the thoughts on 'Where's your passport' 'tea towel on your head' and even 'no surrender to the IRA' all been used at town games over the last few years and in my view unpleasant and unnecessary but are they racist?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 13:38:57 GMT 1
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. My main disagreement is your point that someone calling me a white..... is not racist or such a issue because Im not a minority and therefore not being persecuted/opressed
If a person aims a comment aimed at me and uses me skin colour as a factor, then to me that is racist, just as it would be if I called someone a black.......
I must stress that this opinion is based on society and the perception that calling someone a black.... is racist, so therefore I dont see any difference in someone calling me a white........
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Post by Fingers on Oct 19, 2011 13:56:23 GMT 1
Either way it shouldn't have been said.
What's the point in turning on our own players?
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Post by pughywasfree on Oct 19, 2011 15:52:32 GMT 1
ok then is it racist if someone talks about someone to there mate but out of earshot of anyone else?? it would not be offensive because noone would be offended ?
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Post by elmundo on Oct 19, 2011 17:23:18 GMT 1
on that logic would it be as bad as calling someone a ginger c***?? it is a grey area. if a group of none-white people called me a white idiot etc i would be more insulted by the idiot comment than the white bit due to me being white. if someone gets upset by someone stating the colour of there skin then they must think that its a bad thing that they are that colour due to getting insulted. I am white and never been racially abused so i can never fully understand what it feels like, but to me white, black or purple coloured skin does not matter so dont understand why it would offend someone if they belive the same. But that's my point. You're white in a predominantly white country, so why would you feel threatened by anyone singling out your skin colour? Why do you have to feel threatened by anyone singling you out by your skin colour for it to be deemed racist?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2011 17:50:04 GMT 1
Singling out a characteristic of a person and using it for direct derogatory purposes is discrimination. Use of colour is deemed (popularly, if not technically) Racist Use of gender is deemed Sexist Use of Age, Disability etc similarly so. There is a bit of a fuzzy line that can be brought about where the description of the person is set apart from the actual insult, and intended purely to indicate to whom you are referring. To demonstrate using the currently cited example: "That guy's a black c***" is pretty much damn Racist. "That black guy down there is a c***" could be deemed insulting/offensive, but not necessarily Racist, as the insult isn't necessarily tied to the person's characteristics. So, Yes, calling Wroe a white c*** would indeed be Racist. If, just suppose, i called someone a Whitchurch retard, thereby insulting those from the hobbitesque area of Whitchurch, which is a town full of retards as everyone knows, could i be accussed of racism . Or, would this be excused as it a case of speaking the truth. Please don't take offence, just a point needing clearing up.
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Post by venceremos on Oct 19, 2011 17:54:12 GMT 1
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. My main disagreement is your point that someone calling me a white..... is not racist or such a issue because Im not a minority and therefore not being persecuted/opressed If a person aims a comment aimed at me and uses me skin colour as a factor, then to me that is racist, just as it would be if I called someone a black....... I must stress that this opinion is based on society and the perception that calling someone a black.... is racist, so therefore I dont see any difference in someone calling me a white........ I didn't say that wasn't racist. I may not have expressed it clearly but what I meant is that we can get into an academic discussion about what is and isn't racist but, in the end, it's the offensiveness that matters most. Too much is being pinned on the "racist" label and not enough on the threat it does or doesn't carry. Call me a white **** and I'm less concerned about being called "white" than the other term. I don't care whether that's as racist as calling someone a black ****; it just carries less of a threat to discriminate against me based on my skin colour. I'm more concerned about whether racial prejudice is used in an intimidatory or oppressive way than the degree to which the use of the term "racist" is somehow equal for white and black. In a predominantly white society such as ours, has anti-white racism ever been as serious an issue as anti-black or anti-Asian racism? No. That's my point - the consequences of particular forms of racism are more important than the equality of its definition.
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Post by grinfish on Oct 19, 2011 23:21:46 GMT 1
If, just suppose, i called someone a Whitchurch retard, thereby insulting those from the hobbitesque area of Whitchurch, which is a town full of retards as everyone knows, could i be accussed of racism . Or, would this be excused as it a case of speaking the truth. Please don't take offence, just a point needing clearing up. On a micro-scale, I guess it could be considered racist by the common usage of the term. Doubt it would be considered as that in court though. There's a very fuzzy line between discrimination by locale and commonly-considered racism, similar to all Scousers being thieves, all Scots being tight, and all residents of Bayston Hill being so far up their own arses they can see what they had for elevenses.
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Post by simpsonsghost on Nov 2, 2011 18:36:33 GMT 1
I wish to report an incident that involved one of the Ex posters of this board. It was while we were playing Hereford their centre forward had just rattled our crossbar and was gazing towards the south stand in disbelief, when quick as a flash the Ghost whipped out a extra large Snickers bar brandishing it towards Delroy Facey shouting at the top of his voice "come on fat boy you know you want some". That is in no way Racist you Bald Headed
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Post by Pilch on Nov 2, 2011 18:50:25 GMT 1
hey!
some of my best friends are retards !
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Post by simpsonsghost on Nov 2, 2011 19:09:57 GMT 1
hey! some of my best friends are retards ! They would be
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Post by gtismygod on Nov 2, 2011 20:21:31 GMT 1
Been going for 5 years and only heard racism at one game and that was aimed at our own player.
Torquay at home in the play offs, a cockney man on the back row of block 19 saying ridiculous things like 'use your lips' to grandison. Nobody seemed to notice let alone react.
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Post by markglasgow on Nov 2, 2011 20:32:31 GMT 1
If, just suppose, i called someone a Whitchurch retard, thereby insulting those from the hobbitesque area of Whitchurch, which is a town full of retards as everyone knows, could i be accussed of racism . Or, would this be excused as it a case of speaking the truth. Please don't take offence, just a point needing clearing up. all Scots being tight That's it. Was going to buy you all a pint when we come down for the Morecambe match. No chance now. Never been so insulted...... well, within the last 10 mins at least. uliar
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Post by grinfish on Nov 3, 2011 0:00:38 GMT 1
Well, if you're not buying beers, that disproves my following accusation of a drink problem
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Post by clashcityrocker on Nov 3, 2011 7:41:53 GMT 1
Been going for 5 years and only heard racism at one game and that was aimed at our own player. Torquay at home in the play offs, a cockney man on the back row of block 19 saying ridiculous things like 'use your lips' to grandison. Nobody seemed to notice let alone react. Why would anyone react? Lots of people have big lips, irrespective of skin colour. Look at Mick Jagger, maybe this guy could have shouted that to him at a stones concert. Would that be racist? What are you actually insinuating?
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Post by theshrews81 on Nov 3, 2011 8:21:07 GMT 1
Well, if you're not buying beers, that disproves my following accusation of a drink problem He never said he wasn't buying beers, just not buying all the B & a members one. The round size will look the same but won't be shared 😰
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