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Post by Hatfieldshrew on Aug 10, 2011 13:22:02 GMT 1
and that is the problem, they are our people, brought up in our country. the fact that you feel so distant is part of the problem. you feel no link to them, and they none to you . we are alienated from each other as a nation. why should they give a s**t about people like you when your attitude is equally hostile to them? they dont know the people whose homes and businesses they are ruining, they dont undestand "normal " live or values, they dont feel part of the world they live in. so they dont give a s**t about it. It treats them badly and they are kicking back at it you seriously dont think this is just a random happening do you? there are reasons for everything and i think that the separate nature of our social structure is partly to blame for what is happening. we are all victims in this, them, the shop and house holders, us for having to watch it. its awful, we agree on that. Why are they victims? because they have so little respect for themselves and the world that they live in, that they are prepared to have like this. Ok its fair to say that we have completely contrasting opinions. I agree that we are alienated as a nation but are you really surprised? Do you think decent, law abiding citizens want to associate with people who think its ok to smash up their own community and attack innocent people? How did these people become alienated in the first place? I think its a cop out to say these people have a poor life so thats their excuse to riot. I know plenty of people who have come from poor backgrounds but have worked hard to give themself a good life. Yes it might have been hard but surely thats what we should be encouraging, rather than accepting people can moan and blame everything on anyone else. As for your comment that why should they give a s**t about people like you when your attitude is equally hostile to them? they . Do you really think they care about what I think of them, regardless of whether its good or bad? Do you think that if I went around saying how nice they were, how they were just misunderstood and how we should support them, then they would suddenly become nice people. I would think that the last couple of days shows that they dont care about anyone else, they dont even care about their own community as shown by them destroying it. My attitude towards them does not come out of where they live, what their social status is, how much they earn or so on. My attitude towards them is based on seeing them attack the police, set fire to homes, attack innocent bystanders, looting and generally thinking they can do what they want, without any consequences. For that, in my eyes they are scum and its about time they took responsibility for their actions, rather than have apologists like you make excuses and try and justify what they did. Last night I found myself flicking through various news channels across the world to see what their take on the situation was. I found myself watching a European news channel where they had someone living in London who blamed the UK's liberal attitude over the past 20 years and how a generation has been created where people expect something for nothing, believe they are entitled to anything, have little respect for law and order and do not seem to have the same morals as a normal society. He said these people do not understand rights and wrongs because they are never told that they do things wrong. Instead when they do things wrong it is normally a result of someone/something else so they never have to take responsibility for what they have done Yes it is over simplifying it a lot but I wouldnt disagree and I think you would fall into the category of people he was criticising. Every generation has people that expect something for nothing, believe they are entitled to anything. At school we were told that we would get a job, family, car etc. etc. that was in the 70's. We were not told how to get a job, just that we would, I don't know how different it is today. As for taking responsibility for their actions, that I place squarely on parents, I've meet to many parents that believe that their child is all sweetness and can do no wrong, even if you have CCTV of them doing it they find it hard to believe. How many times have you heard or said "My xxxxx would never do that". So is it any wonder that people never take responsibility for what they have done, because they never have had to, because they've got away with it when they were young even if they did it. We need a change in social attitudes, but it's never going to happen while big multi national companies keep telling us what we need and want.
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Post by aldo on Aug 10, 2011 13:47:30 GMT 1
Really? What they can grab? Don't see that in my opinion. One guy was interviewed earlier suggesting a similar thing - he was looting because he was poverty stricken. When asked how he knew where to be to join the group looting? He read about it on his Blackberry - FFS! These people may not follow activities like you or me but that doesn't mean they're living in poverty or can't experience the same things. Like spending time with their mates (isn't that what golfing and fishing is all about, anyway?). If this was a protest about lack of opportunities and the rich getting richer then fair enough, but if it was we'd see more - more targeting of the banks, of political institutions, something that says this is a protest. And finally it's all relative. To you and I the lives we live are fantastic, full of opportunities and great people. But to those born in the upper classes, inheriting multi-millions and living in mansions, our lives may look like small fish with limited opportunities. I just think we've gone soft. Soft on deterrents and soft on punishment. By all means understand lack of opportunities and provide more, but at the same time teach that if you don't respect the law and other people's property/ step out of line, expect to get your fingers burnt. what has poverty got to do with it? i didnt mention that, i am talking about better education and opportunities in the main part. As i said, i dont disagree with much of what you are saying about deterrants, but we as a society have tought these people to behave like this, we allowed it to happen, now we punish them for doing what they have learned. by all means remove them for their crimes, but whilst we have them, we should be putting them right, rather than housing them with other criminals that they will learn from.
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Post by aldo on Aug 10, 2011 13:54:16 GMT 1
Aldo - I take the point of what you're saying. However, do you not think that in any society structure you will always have a moral underclass? I think it's all about the relative disparity in society (that has grown too large and needs reducing), but I feel you'll never escape from these types of issues. I think it also comes down to nature vs nurture. The rioter's anger seems to be based on a lifetime rather than a period of 9/12 months. If someone is born into a family with parents who have no willingness to work and are brought up to think stealing/robbery/violence is ok, what hope have they got - how is that problem solved? We're talking about a solution that is required over several generations, to weed out such attitudes, this is not an easy task. This is what is at the bottom of the debate, some people believe that we come from our mothers wombs as bad or good , knowing good morals or bad. I believe in nurture, that is not to say that predispositions are not there, i just believe that nobody is fundamentally bad or beyond "re-educating" will we always have an underclass? If we carry on the way we do now, then yes, absolutely. I think that if we employed a more liberal approach to education, and taught people to parent correctly, then it would be minimal and much easier to handle, with the possibility of virtual eradication, as so few people would be in it, that we could focus completely on them. Yes, it would take time, but maybe not as long as you think, once we are all on board.
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Post by aldo on Aug 10, 2011 14:00:23 GMT 1
and that is the problem, they are our people, brought up in our country. the fact that you feel so distant is part of the problem. you feel no link to them, and they none to you . we are alienated from each other as a nation. why should they give a s**t about people like you when your attitude is equally hostile to them? they dont know the people whose homes and businesses they are ruining, they dont undestand "normal " live or values, they dont feel part of the world they live in. so they dont give a s**t about it. It treats them badly and they are kicking back at it you seriously dont think this is just a random happening do you? there are reasons for everything and i think that the separate nature of our social structure is partly to blame for what is happening. we are all victims in this, them, the shop and house holders, us for having to watch it. its awful, we agree on that. Why are they victims? because they have so little respect for themselves and the world that they live in, that they are prepared to have like this. Ok its fair to say that we have completely contrasting opinions. I agree that we are alienated as a nation but are you really surprised? Do you think decent, law abiding citizens want to associate with people who think its ok to smash up their own community and attack innocent people? How did these people become alienated in the first place? I think its a cop out to say these people have a poor life so thats their excuse to riot. I know plenty of people who have come from poor backgrounds but have worked hard to give themself a good life. Yes it might have been hard but surely thats what we should be encouraging, rather than accepting people can moan and blame everything on anyone else. As for your comment that why should they give a s**t about people like you when your attitude is equally hostile to them? they . Do you really think they care about what I think of them, regardless of whether its good or bad? Do you think that if I went around saying how nice they were, how they were just misunderstood and how we should support them, then they would suddenly become nice people. I would think that the last couple of days shows that they dont care about anyone else, they dont even care about their own community as shown by them destroying it. My attitude towards them does not come out of where they live, what their social status is, how much they earn or so on. My attitude towards them is based on seeing them attack the police, set fire to homes, attack innocent bystanders, looting and generally thinking they can do what they want, without any consequences. For that, in my eyes they are scum and its about time they took responsibility for their actions, rather than have apologists like you make excuses and try and justify what they did. Last night I found myself flicking through various news channels across the world to see what their take on the situation was. I found myself watching a European news channel where they had someone living in London who blamed the UK's liberal attitude over the past 20 years and how a generation has been created where people expect something for nothing, believe they are entitled to anything, have little respect for law and order and do not seem to have the same morals as a normal society. He said these people do not understand rights and wrongs because they are never told that they do things wrong. Instead when they do things wrong it is normally a result of someone/something else so they never have to take responsibility for what they have done Yes it is over simplifying it a lot but I wouldnt disagree and I think you would fall into the category of people he was criticising. can we ditch the word excuse? i am not excusing anyone, i dont think they have done the right thing, i just feel that i understand why they are doing what they are doing. I dont think we should excuse anyone, put them in prison and educate them better. But To take responsibility , you have to know what it means, you do,these people dont. You agree with me really i think, you said it yourself. You were brought up better, with a moral code and a work ethic. I am saying that they were not, so unlike you, they know no better or more to the point, dont care and were brought up that way from when they were too small to question it. If you teach a dog to bite people, is it the dogs fault when it savages someone?.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 14:01:50 GMT 1
Listening to 5 live at lunch and they interviewed some of the looters involved in Manchester. Why are you looting was the question. The answer given was the because they could.
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Post by aldo on Aug 10, 2011 14:08:05 GMT 1
Listening to 5 live at lunch and they interviewed some of the looters involved in Manchester. Why are you looting was the question. The answer given was the because they could. there was more than one rioter interviewed and a number of reasons were given so that isnt really a definitive answer is it? and yes, they were allowed to, but would you ? if you were allowed to? would you rape someone if it were allowed? i doubt it as you know how it feels to lose something to theft and know how repellant it is to rape or whatever crime. They have the desire to do wrong, that is different to you or i ? i think so. So where does this desire to do wrong come from? we teach our children not to do it, so somewhere along the line they have not been taught, or taught to ignore the moral way to be.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 14:15:33 GMT 1
I disagree. I think people know it's wrong but do it anyway. I think when people get involved in organised crime full stop they know it's wrong but do it because they believe they can get away with it or, if caught, the punishment won't be severe enough.
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Post by blueandamberatkins on Aug 10, 2011 14:16:18 GMT 1
Personally believe they are rioting purely because they can...interviews with rioters have shown that thier reasoning has been things such as "i don't know", "we don't like the rich", "conservatives and that" and my personal favourite "It's the summer holidays".
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Post by aldo on Aug 10, 2011 14:18:46 GMT 1
I disagree. I think people know it's wrong but do it anyway. I think when people get involved in organised crime full stop they know it's wrong but do it because they believe they can get away with it or, if caught, the punishment won't be severe enough. what, autoatically? people are born knowing right from wrong?
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Post by aldo on Aug 10, 2011 14:19:42 GMT 1
Personally believe they are rioting purely because they can...interviews with rioters have shown that thier reasoning has been things such as "i don't know", "we don't like the rich", "conservatives and that" and my personal favourite "It's the summer holidays". so why werent you out there rioting?
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Post by blueandamberatkins on Aug 10, 2011 14:22:03 GMT 1
people are not born knowing right from wrong, but when they are people of 13 years and older they surely know that what they are doing is wrong, burning buildings, stealing from shops, smashing the place up and in that case in birmingham murder are not things that anybody in this country believes to be the right thing to do
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Post by aldo on Aug 10, 2011 14:27:56 GMT 1
people are not born knowing right from wrong, but when they are people of 13 years and older they surely know that what they are doing is wrong, burning buildings, stealing from shops, smashing the place up and in that case in birmingham murder are not things that anybody in this country believes to be the right thing to do If they are taught correctly. none of those things sound like fun things to do to me, not an enjoyable way to behave imo. so they were taught to find it enjoyable? Dont get me wrong, we all go through a phase where we test the limits in normal childhood, but i dont think that rioting is a part of a normal childhood.
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Post by blueandamberatkins on Aug 10, 2011 14:41:36 GMT 1
There needs to be a punishment that can be given out to these sort of people that would make them stop, ofcourse they are going to loot, steal destroy when they believe that there won't be any real consequence for it, bring in some national service or something to install some pride and self belief into these people, and perhaps then they might concentrate on working towards a better future for themselves rather than living for the rush of throwing bricks at police and stealing from shops. As regards to your question earlier, I am not rioting because I know what I am doing with my life, I want to make something of myself, these people are doing it because the can, the majority have walked into london, manchester, liverpool etc because they know a riot is going on, and are looting because they can't see any backlash for their actions and think they might get some free stuff from it, and if they get a conviction, caution, fine, criminal record...so what? why should they care?
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Post by aldo on Aug 10, 2011 17:38:05 GMT 1
There needs to be a punishment that can be given out to these sort of people that would make them stop, ofcourse they are going to loot, steal destroy when they believe that there won't be any real consequence for it, bring in some national service or something to install some pride and self belief into these people, and perhaps then they might concentrate on working towards a better future for themselves rather than living for the rush of throwing bricks at police and stealing from shops. As regards to your question earlier, I am not rioting because I know what I am doing with my life, I want to make something of myself, these people are doing it because the can, the majority have walked into london, manchester, liverpool etc because they know a riot is going on, and are looting because they can't see any backlash for their actions and think they might get some free stuff from it, and if they get a conviction, caution, fine, criminal record...so what? why should they care? well i dont disagree with most of that but i am interested in your second paragraph. You seem to be saying that if you didnt know where you were going in life, you would be out there rioting because there is no deterrant. I dont believe that, i think that people dont steal for a number of reasons. when we are kids, we are taught not to steal by deterrant as it works in the short term until we are ready to understand the real reasons we should not steal, because we understand the impact it has on the victims and want to be good people.
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Aug 10, 2011 17:39:16 GMT 1
There is - it's called the birch. A few public floggings would soon make them back off pretty quick. I suggest the shopkeepers who's premises have been looted would be queing up to administer it. Wouldn't look quite so arrogant if they knew they were likely to get that dished out.
I await cries of "we can't do that in a civilised society" - these people have rights you know.
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Post by aldo on Aug 10, 2011 17:44:55 GMT 1
There is - it's called the birch. A few public floggings would soon make them back off pretty quick. I suggest the shopkeepers who's premises have been looted would be queing up to administer it. Wouldn't look quite so arrogant if they knew they were likely to get that dished out. I await cries of "we can't do that in a civilised society" - these people have rights you know. well i wont say that but i think that people like you with views like that are a much bigger problem than the riots. Hitting people with sticks? that is just laughable
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Post by Mike on Aug 10, 2011 17:55:19 GMT 1
The latest bright idea. Stop the benefits of those who have rioted.
Might seem sensible at first but when people have no money to buy food then what's going to happen then, more rioting, looting, thieving I reckon.
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Post by shrewsace on Aug 10, 2011 18:07:30 GMT 1
Of course these kids haven't analysed the socio-economic situation and thought ' I know, I'll participate in a riot to register my displeasure at widening inequalities in society and poverty of opportunity'.
But of course they're a product of their environment, their experiences, their upbringing and the attitudes they've grown up around.
We all are. All our characters are shaped and our behaviour motivated by those factors, whether we analyse and understand it or not.
Of course, in the short term, this needs to be brought under control pretty sharpish.
In the long term, we, as a society, need to understand and address the reasons why so many people become alienated to the point they are easily incited into this kind of action.
Greedy, opportunistic and unconcerned about the effect their actions have on wider society? I think we could draw one or two parallels there.
As for 'lacking respect for authority'? The same establishment which has been exposed as riddled with corruption and hypocrisy?
The politicians, the banks, the media and the Met have all been disgraced recently.
Then there's the 'greed is good' mentality, where the accumulation of wealth is venerated and seen as virtuous in itself.
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Post by Tux on Aug 10, 2011 18:08:38 GMT 1
Was in liverpool last night.
Heard a bunch of gunshots. Plus to get back I had to walk through the area it was coming from :S
Some scary s**t.
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Post by Dan F on Aug 10, 2011 18:41:03 GMT 1
Was in liverpool last night. Heard a bunch of gunshots. Plus to get back I had to walk through the area it was coming from :S Some scary s**t. Business as usual there, then
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Post by aldo on Aug 10, 2011 18:42:03 GMT 1
There is a positive side to this though, people getting up and getting together to clean up the mess. The riots could inspire a sort of big society, like the prime minister lied about fostering 18 months ago
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Post by shrewsace on Aug 10, 2011 18:45:52 GMT 1
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Post by bertymax on Aug 10, 2011 18:47:04 GMT 1
There is a positive side to this though, people getting up and getting together to clean up the mess. The riots could inspire a sort of big society, like the prime minister lied about fostering 18 months ago And the vigilante mobs. Warmed me heart to know that potential rioters in Enfield were heading for a good kickin.
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Post by WindsorShrew on Aug 10, 2011 19:15:58 GMT 1
I am glad control of the situation has been left with the Police. Putting the Army on the street is not the answer.
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hertfordshrew
Midland League Division Two
Following Salop from a safe distance.
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Post by hertfordshrew on Aug 10, 2011 19:26:38 GMT 1
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Post by theNOTORIOUSfbs on Aug 10, 2011 19:38:57 GMT 1
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 21:20:16 GMT 1
Apparently there's something going on in Shrewsbury? A number of people have said there's riot police everywhere.
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shrewsburyowl
Midland League Division Two
The real Slim Seedy
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Post by shrewsburyowl on Aug 10, 2011 21:24:34 GMT 1
hearing reports of riot police down at the train station just now
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on Aug 10, 2011 21:28:22 GMT 1
Question - does it happen in placers where the birch is still administered. Think that will answer the question as to whether it is effective.
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Post by aldo on Aug 10, 2011 21:44:42 GMT 1
Question - does it happen in placers where the birch is still administered. Think that will answer the question as to whether it is effective. whatever, back to the middle ages with you
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