Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 14:16:22 GMT 1
|
|
|
Post by SeanBroseley on Feb 2, 2011 14:26:24 GMT 1
Why do their eyes always bulge? Except for Nick Griffen obviously.
|
|
|
Post by shrewsace on Feb 2, 2011 14:34:47 GMT 1
|
|
oranjemob
Midland League Division One
Posts: 486
|
Post by oranjemob on Feb 2, 2011 14:38:29 GMT 1
Pleeeese can we have more like this - preferably on 'prime time' TV
|
|
|
Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 2, 2011 14:42:55 GMT 1
What is interesting about the EDL interview is that he is just a normal bloke.
And he is evidently not very bright.
And he is scared.
Instead of looking down their noses at people like him, the politicians need to work out how to deal with an angry young white working class.
The scary thing about the EDL is not its message (we have heard it all before from the NF / BNP / whoever), but rather it's success.
|
|
|
Post by shrewsace on Feb 2, 2011 14:54:01 GMT 1
Instead of looking down their noses at people like him, the politicians need to work out how to deal with an angry young white working class. CS Gas? The impact of the current government's policies, with rising unemployment and deteriorating standards of living is only going to exacerbate this problem. Working class people will find their lives becoming harder and more miserable, while the likes of the BNP and EDL will always be on hand to lay it all at the door of Muslims, immigrants etc, when people are angry and looking for a scapegoat. Only the anti-cuts movements and those proposing a programme of growth rather than cuts are offering hope and a constructive alternative to the Government's austerity drive.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 15:01:25 GMT 1
What is interesting about the EDL interview is that he is just a normal bloke. And he is evidently not very bright. And he is scared. Instead of looking down their noses at people like him, the politicians need to work out how to deal with an angry young white working class. The scary thing about the EDL is not its message (we have heard it all before from the NF / BNP / whoever), but rather it's success. is he scared or just ignorant and bigoted. not sure he needs dealing with at all to be honest. as you say (or imply) this is nothing new, every couple of decades brings a new figure of hatred for those with nothing better to do. black africans, afro carribeans, the irish, pakistanis, they have all had their day as being public enemy number one. Now its the turn of the Muslims and Islam.
|
|
|
Post by heavenlyshrew on Feb 2, 2011 15:10:05 GMT 1
What is interesting about the EDL interview is that he is just a normal bloke. And he is evidently not very bright. And he is scared. Instead of looking down their noses at people like him, the politicians need to work out how to deal with an angry young white working class. The scary thing about the EDL is not its message (we have heard it all before from the NF / BNP / whoever), but rather it's success. . black africans, afro carribeans, the irish, pakistanis, they have all had their day as being public enemy number one. Now its the turn of the Muslims and Islam. You can add to eastern europeans now to that list.
|
|
|
Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 2, 2011 15:18:20 GMT 1
It is much more complicated than that though isn't it?
Ignorance causes fear which creates bigotry, so he may be all three, but he is the symptom not the cause.
The issue here is to do with mixing up muslims and radicalised muslims.
I know Baroness Warsi may get upset at the distinction but it is the only one we have.
The difference between previous minority groups victim of this sort of stuff has been, bar Irish Catholics (IRA), the fact that it was basically down to race and there was less perceived aggression.
There is a problem within the Muslim community which politicians have fudged.
The EDL are a response to that. I think he is 100% spot on that they are a symptom. Nothing else explains their success.
I don't blame Muslims. I don't even blame radical Muslims.
I blame those who were so cowed by a bizarre notion of tolerance that they let hate take a foothold.
And just like the Islamic radicals took the airtime vacated by moderates in their community, the EDL is filling a massive vacuum of political representation for a massive swathe of white working class Britain.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 15:19:20 GMT 1
[ You can add to eastern europeans now to that list. oh yes, i was forgetting, with their endless streams of sauerkraut it wont be long before you cant buy proper cabbage in this country.
|
|
|
Post by heavenlyshrew on Feb 2, 2011 15:24:40 GMT 1
[ You can add to eastern europeans now to that list. oh yes, i was forgetting, with their endless streams of sauerkraut it wont be long before you cant buy proper cabbage in this country. You need to catch up,the hatred of Romanian,Polish and other eastern Euoropean's in this country is up there with the hatred muslims and islamic people.
|
|
|
Post by Dan F on Feb 2, 2011 15:25:26 GMT 1
. black africans, afro carribeans, the irish, pakistanis, they have all had their day as being public enemy number one. Now its the turn of the Muslims and Islam. You can add to eastern europeans now to that list. Ah yes, evil b***ards - coming over here and doing the jobs we're too lazy to do for a pittance, opening shops and laundrettes all the time when we need them. Vile pestilence!
|
|
oranjemob
Midland League Division One
Posts: 486
|
Post by oranjemob on Feb 2, 2011 15:34:59 GMT 1
You need to catch up,the hatred of Romanian,Polish and other eastern Euoropean's in this country is up there with the hatred muslims and islamic people. Why and from whom?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 15:52:29 GMT 1
It is much more complicated than that though isn't it? Im not sure it is TBHIgnorance causes fear which creates bigotry, so he may be all three, but he is the symptom not the cause. how about ignorance creates bigotry that creates fear? and his ignorance and bigotry does nothing except fuel more igorance and bigotry. So yes, he is part of the cause. The stuff about being a symptom suggests he sees himself as some kind of victim.The issue here is to do with mixing up muslims and radicalised muslims. I agree, this is an issue, but he seems to think that anyone who follows the Quran is an extremist. He tars all Muslims as extremists which is absurd and shows how utterly stupid he is. It is no more true than suggsting that everyone who lives their life according to the christian bible is an extremist.I know Baroness Warsi may get upset at the distinction but it is the only one we have. less saidThe difference between previous minority groups victim of this sort of stuff has been, bar Irish Catholics (IRA), the fact that it was basically down to race and there was less perceived aggression. From them or towards them? Maybe Muslims have learnt the lessons of history and will not allow themselves to be beat up by gangs of nazi thugs whilst the policemans back was turned as used to happen in the 50s 60s and 70s. People talk about Muslims intergrating into our society, well perhaps their perceived aggression is one good indicator about how much they actually have.There is a problem within the Muslim community which politicians have fudged. which is what?I think he is 100% spot on that they are a symptom. Nothing else explains their success. Yes it does, bigotry and ignorance.I don't blame Muslims. I don't even blame radical Muslims. I blame those who were so cowed by a bizarre notion of tolerance that they let hate take a foothold. Can you explain that sentence a little further please. do you believe that tolerance is a bizarre notion?And just like the Islamic radicals took the airtime vacated by moderates in their community, the EDL is filling a massive vacuum of political representation for a massive swathe of white working class Britain. i think your use of the word massive in that sentence is wholly inaccurate, and vastly overstates their popularity and influence. Who exactly is "white working class britain" i consider myself pretty white and working class, do i count? They certainly do not represent me.
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Feb 2, 2011 16:10:03 GMT 1
Just a quick question Matron, where do you live?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 16:16:03 GMT 1
Just a quick question Matron, where do you live? Telford. Where do you live Stutty?
|
|
|
Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 2, 2011 16:18:16 GMT 1
how about ignorance creates bigotry that creates fear? and his ignorance and bigotry does nothing except fuel more igorance and bigotry. So yes, he is part of the cause. The stuff about being a symptom suggests he sees himself as some kind of victim. The EDL would not exist if the Anglian Regument marching through Luton had not been subject to the actions of extremist Muslims. If his problem is ignorance, then who is responsible for education? I agree, this is an issue, but he seems to think that anyone who follows the Quran is an extremist. He tars all Muslims as extremists which is absurd and shows how utterly stupid he is. It is no more true than suggsting that everyone who lives their life according to the christian bible is an extremist. Picking holes in the arguments of a relatively uneducated bloke is a bit petty. He said a 7th century reading of the Quran. All he had to add was an extremist understanding of it and he would be close to what clever academics are saying in the mainstream media. It is true that foreign Imams have propogated a much stronger, more aggressive and anti British form of Islam. Look at Finsbury Park. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_London_Central_MosqueCan you explain that sentence a little further please. do you believe that tolerance is a bizarre notion? Tolerance itself is not bizare, but a form of tolerance that allows extremism which is utterly intolerant of our society to thrive is completely self defeating. i think your use of the word massive in that sentence is wholly inaccurate, and vastly overstates their popularity and influence. Who exactly is "white working class britain" i consider myself pretty white and working class, do i count? They certainly do not represent me. It might not be massive, but it is big enough for us to be talking about it. Big enough to unite hundreds of thousands of people to the cause via online groups and hundreds of thousands against it. No formal structure, no clear aims, a grassroots movement which people have quickly latched on to in their thousands, saying they feel it gives them a "voice". I find that whole notion scary. When I say "White working class" I picture people on the Jeremy Kyle show, not you with your degree, management job and nice house in the suburbs
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Feb 2, 2011 16:24:31 GMT 1
Just a quick question Matron, where do you live? Telford. Where do you live Stutty? <- Location: Stuttgart. I live in Stuttgart, Germany.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 16:32:55 GMT 1
Telford. Where do you live Stutty? <- Location: Stuttgart. I live in Stuttgart, Germany. it was a rhetorical question. im guessing you are going to suggest that because i dont live in a big city with a large Muslim population then my opinion is invalid?
|
|
|
Post by Dan F on Feb 2, 2011 16:34:33 GMT 1
I'll say it if you want. I live in the middle of a Muslim/Eastern European area (depends which window I look out of) and it's not often I get to lord it over you guys. Although you did say Telford, so it probably is quite often I suppose.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2011 17:21:29 GMT 1
The EDL would not exist if the Anglian Regument marching through Luton had not been subject to the actions of extremist Muslims. Oddly though, he doesnt mention that incident or the British Armed Forces, he just goes on about how evil the Quran is. What the hell has the Quran got to do with a handfull of ignorant tossers shooting their gobs off at our returning Soldiers?
Of all the anti war protests by Muslims, perhaps a couple of thousand have taken part, out of how many millions of Muslims in this country?If his problem is ignorance, then who is responsible for education? i dont know. he is a grown man, is anyone responsible?Picking holes in the arguments of a relatively uneducated bloke is a bit petty. Really? He went on a major news programme in front of possibly millions of people to justify his organisation and im sure, recruit people into it. Why is picking holes in his arguement petty. He said a 7th century reading of the Quran. All he had to add was an extremist understanding of it and he would be close to what clever academics are saying in the mainstream media. but he didnt did he, and i wonder how many people listening actualy took what he said at face value. so is he still a symptom or is his message now the cause of more bigotry and ignorance?It is true that foreign Imams have propogated a much stronger, more aggressive and anti British form of Islam. Look at Finsbury Park. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_London_Central_Mosquei know, does it necessarily label a whole culture or religeon? do the actions of George Bush or Tony Blair label all Christians? of coarse not, and anyone who implied they did would be considered an idiot.Tolerance itself is not bizare, but a form of tolerance that allows extremism which is utterly intolerant of our society to thrive is completely self defeating. i would possibly agree with you, but as we are only talking about relatively very small numbers of Muslims, the overwhelming majority being law abiding and good citizens, who are happy to practice their religeon within british law and society, i hardly see the issue. It might not be massive you said it wasbut it is big enough for us to be talking about it. Big enough to unite hundreds of thousands of people to the cause via online groups and hundreds of thousands against it. Just so we are clear, and after a quick check for comparison, Katie Price (Jordan) has 1,037.982 facebook friends, the EDL has 71,302.No formal structure, no clear aims, a grassroots movement which people have quickly latched on to in their thousands, saying they feel it gives them a "voice". i suspect more people would latch onto...... sorry.I find that whole notion scary. When I say "White working class" I picture people on the Jeremy Kyle show, not you with your degree, management job and nice house in the suburbs So you can only be classed as white working class if you can barely remember your name, have a drug habit and have to pick a name out of a hat to identify the father of your children?
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Feb 2, 2011 19:42:43 GMT 1
No, everyone's opinion is valid. Just that other folks' opinions might be based on their location, current situation. That bloke talks about towns and cities. I doubt we live in a town and city he is referring to. Some folk must think they are genuinely on the front line in the war on terror. Bizarre as it is to us that’s what some folk clearly believe. That’s hardly any surprise either considering. If only they could distinguish those extremist Muslims bent on terror from those who law abiding and good citizens, who are happy to practice their religion. But it's difficult that. I mean our politicians seem incapable of doing so. Nor our armed forces. I guess they see themselves as the home front...
|
|
|
Post by venceremos on Feb 2, 2011 19:54:42 GMT 1
Tolerance itself is not bizare, but a form of tolerance that allows extremism which is utterly intolerant of our society to thrive is completely self defeating. Why is that self-defeating? Just because we tolerate the expression of views that might even be hostile towards our own beliefs doesn't mean we don't also actively oppose them. Do those hostile views really "thrive"? Sure there's a minority clinging to them but they haven't spread widely in the Muslim community, any more than openly racist political views have spread widely in white communities. The danger is not those views, or even the expression of those views. The danger is that, in trying to suppress those views, you simply spread disaffection amongst that community. Intolerant views will then thrive as an expression of rebellion against the oppressor. Better to have it out in the open and expose idiocy for what it is. Unless you're prepared to let people say things you don't like, you're not really being tolerant at all. And if you're not truly tolerant then I think you're actually insecure in your own beliefs.
|
|
|
Post by nicko on Feb 3, 2011 11:48:37 GMT 1
Extremists groups whether they be the likes of the EDL and radical Muslims are the price we pay for the tolerant society that we like to think that we live in.
We can't ignore them for the racists that actually are, but the government needs to engage them in open debate to debunk their theories.
Also this notion that to be 'white working class' you have to be thick, a single parent, can't own your own home or have a well paid job is nonsense.
|
|
|
Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 5, 2011 11:21:33 GMT 1
Well, well, well, I never expected this: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994It is also very interesting reading the comments from Muslim groups. If you cannot distinguish between extremists and Muslims then how can you distinguish them?
|
|
|
Post by africanshrew on Feb 5, 2011 11:36:51 GMT 1
Interesting survey out this week which showed the British had the greatest fear of immigration of most western countries. We also have the lowest proportion of people with close friends who were born outside this country. These two are surely related - fear stems from a lack of understanding and lack of personal exposure to what we fear - the void is then filled my misunderstanding and fear whipped up by others or by rumour. If we all made an effort to meet people from outside our usual social group we may find the reality is very different from what we imagine. By 'we' I mean all people living in the UK wherever they come from.
|
|
|
Post by heavenlyshrew on Feb 5, 2011 11:48:09 GMT 1
Well, well, well, I never expected this: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994It is also very interesting reading the comments from Muslim groups. If you cannot distinguish between extremists and Muslims then how can you distinguish them? Maybe Cameron is listening to people now
|
|
|
Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 5, 2011 12:09:58 GMT 1
Tolerance itself is not bizare, but a form of tolerance that allows extremism which is utterly intolerant of our society to thrive is completely self defeating. I never thought David Cameron would express my view on anything! "Frankly, we need a lot less of the passive tolerance of recent years and much more active, muscular liberalism," the prime minister said. "Let's properly judge these organisations: Do they believe in universal human rights - including for women and people of other faiths? Do they believe in equality of all before the law? Do they believe in democracy and the right of people to elect their own government? Do they encourage integration or separatism?"
|
|
oranjemob
Midland League Division One
Posts: 486
|
Post by oranjemob on Feb 5, 2011 13:11:46 GMT 1
"Let's properly judge these organisations: Do they believe in universal human rights - including for women and people of other faiths? Do they believe in equality of all before the law? Do they believe in democracy and the right of people to elect their own government? Do they encourage integration or separatism?" Interesting. I'm (supposed to be) working today so have only had a chance to have a quick look but my initial observations are: • “Security minister Baroness Neville-Jones said when Mr Cameron expressed his opposition to extremism, he meant all forms, not just Islamist extremism.” Then why didn’t he mention any other form of extremism. • Regarding the quote mentioned above by Throb; do not those criteria equally apply to foreign Governments? Surely they must and, if so, should we “engage” – his word – with the Saudis and their ilk that do not come within a million miles of meeting his criteria? • If I were a cynic (heaven forbid!) I might be wondering if this wasn’t just a rather naïve attempt to distract public opinion away from the ConDems rather difficult political and economic situation and throw a controversial (and in it’s most shallow form ‘populist’) grenade onto the table. After all, who wants to talk about crap economic figure, hundreds of thousands of job losses, huge cuts in services etc, etc when there’s a good old excuse for some Islam bashing provided from the very top of the political pile. Of course, this is a huge issues of major significance but it is one that needs delicate handling and to "engage" all stakeholders in constructive dialogue. Not to be used as a rather cynical political escape mechanism. Ok, I am a cynic
|
|
|
Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Feb 5, 2011 14:37:27 GMT 1
• Regarding the quote mentioned above by Throb; do not those criteria equally apply to foreign Governments? Surely they must and, if so, should we “engage” – his word – with the Saudis and their ilk that do not come within a million miles of meeting his criteria? I think that is a really good point. I would also put the EDL in exactly the same bracket as any religious extremists. But in answer to the cynicism that he is trying to cover up economic difficulties: he was at an international conference on security and extremism, so he was unlikely to talk about tuition fees and tax credits.
|
|