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Post by Shrewed on Dec 9, 2010 22:08:25 GMT 1
Today has been a bad day for English democracy.
The world has seen "so called students" rioting in the streets of London. Regardless of how justified their case, there is no justification for the violence and mayhem seen tonight.
It seems that there are a few anorcists who now attend all major demonstrations determined to have confrontation with the police.
The worry is that the Government will bring in laws to limit demonstrations and therefore deny sections of society from expressing their views on Government policies.
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Post by Amsterdammer on Dec 9, 2010 22:15:18 GMT 1
Once again a minority of idiots ruin a decent protest. Even had a pop at Charles and Camilla.
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bradley
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Post by bradley on Dec 9, 2010 22:49:32 GMT 1
The police should have called for backup, and requested the Meadow stewards
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Dec 9, 2010 23:53:08 GMT 1
Smashing up the treasury and attacking the royal family. Are we suddenly French?
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Post by Dan F on Dec 10, 2010 0:44:18 GMT 1
Personally I think we should take a leaf out of the racialists books and deport all students. Who's with me?
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Post by venceremos on Dec 10, 2010 1:12:03 GMT 1
Bad day? Not at all. For the first time in ages I actually feel encouraged.
Encouraged that large numbers of young people feel moved to protest, rather than meekly accepting what's dished out to them, as most of us do.
Encouraged by the actions of Anonymous and Operation Payback, targeting those craven commercial organisations doing the US government's bidding in attempting to close down Wikileaks.
Today has not been a bad day for our democracy at all, quite the opposite. Violence is regrettable but let's be honest about it, instead of trotting out Daily Mail- type cliches. The truth is it commands attention, where a peaceful protest would be given 10 seconds on the news and the subject dropped.
And violence is rarely, if ever, one sided. Mounted police charges into crowds of people - isn't that a form of violence? Kettling groups of people for hours on end - isn't that likely to provoke a reaction? I'm not trying to apportion blame because I wasn't there and I've no way of knowing. But simply to trot out the usual "tiny minority" and "anarchists" lines is pretty feeble analysis.
As for Charles and Camilla, frankly that's just a distraction. What were their minders doing driving through the "riot"? The surprise is that more damage wasn't done.
Hope2010 - I'm surprised you see it that way. History surely teaches us that progress isn't always peaceful and orderly. Sometimes it gets uglier than we'd like. From the chartists to the poll tax riots there's a tradition of public disorder. This isn't new. Did you think the violence during the miners' strikes was solely the responsibility of the miners? I'm surprised that you seem to be taking such a simplistic view of today's events.
These are interesting images of the coalition government's early days - government buildings attacked, riot police against students - and schoolchildren, and a vandalised royal car. Interesting times.
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Post by simianus on Dec 10, 2010 1:43:24 GMT 1
Bad day? Not at all. For the first time in ages I actually feel encouraged. Encouraged that large numbers of young people feel moved to protest, rather than meekly accepting what's dished out to them, as most of us do. Encouraged by the actions of Anonymous and Operation Payback, targeting those craven commercial organisations doing the US government's bidding in attempting to close down Wikileaks. Today has not been a bad day for our democracy at all, quite the opposite. Violence is regrettable but let's be honest about it, instead of trotting out Daily Mail- type cliches. The truth is it commands attention, where a peaceful protest would be given 10 seconds on the news and the subject dropped. And violence is rarely, if ever, one sided. Mounted police charges into crowds of people - isn't that a form of violence? Kettling groups of people for hours on end - isn't that likely to provoke a reaction? I'm not trying to apportion blame because I wasn't there and I've no way of knowing. But simply to trot out the usual "tiny minority" and "anarchists" lines is pretty feeble analysis. As for Charles and Camilla, frankly that's just a distraction. What were their minders doing driving through the "riot"? The surprise is that more damage wasn't done. Hope2010 - I'm surprised you see it that way. History surely teaches us that progress isn't always peaceful and orderly. Sometimes it gets uglier than we'd like. From the chartists to the poll tax riots there's a tradition of public disorder. This isn't new. Did you think the violence during the miners' strikes was solely the responsibility of the miners? I'm surprised that you seem to be taking such a simplistic view of today's events. These are interesting images of the coalition government's early days - government buildings attacked, riot police against students - and schoolchildren, and a vandalised royal car. Interesting times.
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Post by blum on Dec 10, 2010 3:10:04 GMT 1
Bad day? Not at all. For the first time in ages I actually feel encouraged. Encouraged that large numbers of young people feel moved to protest, rather than meekly accepting what's dished out to them, as most of us do. Encouraged by the actions of Anonymous and Operation Payback, targeting those craven commercial organisations doing the US government's bidding in attempting to close down Wikileaks. Today has not been a bad day for our democracy at all, quite the opposite. Violence is regrettable but let's be honest about it, instead of trotting out Daily Mail- type cliches. The truth is it commands attention, where a peaceful protest would be given 10 seconds on the news and the subject dropped. And violence is rarely, if ever, one sided. Mounted police charges into crowds of people - isn't that a form of violence? Kettling groups of people for hours on end - isn't that likely to provoke a reaction? I'm not trying to apportion blame because I wasn't there and I've no way of knowing. But simply to trot out the usual "tiny minority" and "anarchists" lines is pretty feeble analysis. As for Charles and Camilla, frankly that's just a distraction. What were their minders doing driving through the "riot"? The surprise is that more damage wasn't done. Hope2010 - I'm surprised you see it that way. History surely teaches us that progress isn't always peaceful and orderly. Sometimes it gets uglier than we'd like. From the chartists to the poll tax riots there's a tradition of public disorder. This isn't new. Did you think the violence during the miners' strikes was solely the responsibility of the miners? I'm surprised that you seem to be taking such a simplistic view of today's events. These are interesting images of the coalition government's early days - government buildings attacked, riot police against students - and schoolchildren, and a vandalised royal car. Interesting times. At first I was almost going to completely disagree with you, however, after reading further than the first sentence I completely agree with you. It's a shame about the attack on the Royals though. You talk a lot of sense. Time and again the silent protest is ignored, this however, can't be. Whether there is compromise I dont know but it will now have to get the Tory's thinking about steam rollering things through.Having said this I still don't think that vandalism and violence is warranted, but yet again the Police show that they still have good old bullying tactic up their sleeves.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2010 7:27:55 GMT 1
some of the scenes of violence are nothing to do with democracy, attacking the royal family has nothing to do with democracy, trying to smash up the treasury has nothing to do with democracy. ugly scenes that should be condemed (no pun intended) as much as mounted police charging peaceful protestors.
seems to me that this whole thing to a great extent, is being hijacked by trouble makers and others with their own agenda.
on a side note, i hope this is the death of the liberal democrats and the start of the end for this grubby little alliance.
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Post by nicko on Dec 10, 2010 8:52:53 GMT 1
Today has been a bad day for English democracy. The world has seen "so called students" rioting in the streets of London. Regardless of how justified their case, there is no justification for the violence and mayhem seen tonight. You sound like a Government sound-bite and a Daily Mail headline. Actually it was a good day for British Democracy. Undoubtedly it was a bad day for the 12 police officers and 43 protesters injured and the thousands of peaceful protesters 'Kettled' (always smile at that word, sounds like a dodgy sexual practice). Good to see some people in authority rattled. Matron. I find your post contradictory; I take it that if the Government fell then you'd be happy that the riots help facilitate their downfall?
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Dec 10, 2010 8:59:38 GMT 1
These riots are just not on. The students should have offered to pay for any damage caused, just like we used to do in the Bullingdon Club.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2010 8:59:55 GMT 1
Very dissapointed that sensible and democratic protests have been hijaked by a handful of anarchists who have been intent on causing violence since day one. on a side note, i hope this is the death of the liberal democrats and the start of the end for this grubby little alliance. However, this I take serious offence to. The Lib Dems joined in coalition to get some of their policy points through. The £10k lower tax band will go through, the referendum on AVP is likely to happen. Remember that the libdems did not win the election, they came third. Remember that Labour went back on their promise to charge students tuition fees in the first place. Labour's "grubby" members (probabaly ex now) picked a good day to be prosecuted: Link------> Hoon, Byers and Caborn rebuked over lobbying breaches The thing is, Labour are sitting high and mighty over the rise in tuition fees, taking the moral highground. Yet Miliband is suggesting a graduate tax. Surely both policies are more or less the same thing?
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Post by nicko on Dec 10, 2010 9:14:31 GMT 1
These riots are just not on. The students should have offered to pay for any damage caused, just like we used to do in the Bullingdon Club. Thanks for the laugh out loud moment TBH!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2010 9:21:59 GMT 1
Very dissapointed that sensible and democratic protests have been hijaked by a handful of anarchists who have been intent on causing violence since day one. on a side note, i hope this is the death of the liberal democrats and the start of the end for this grubby little alliance. However, this I take serious offence to. The Lib Dems joined in coalition to get some of their policy points through. The £10k lower tax band will go through, the referendum on AVP is likely to happen. Remember that the libdems did not win the election, they came third. Remember that Labour went back on their promise to charge students tuition fees in the first place. Labour's "grubby" members (probabaly ex now) picked a good day to be prosecuted: Link------> Hoon, Byers and Caborn rebuked over lobbying breaches The thing is, Labour are sitting high and mighty over the rise in tuition fees, taking the moral highground. Yet Miliband is suggesting a graduate tax. Surely both policies are more or less the same thing? As was pointed out in the Commons debate yesterday, the coalition had to be a compromise. I find it surprising that the Lib Dems managed to obtain a vote on AVP (advantageous to their party) but compromised on the student fee rises after signing a pledge (in addition to their manifesto) against them. The Conservatives were nobody's fool in this trade off because the vote for AVP is extremely unlikely to be passed.
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Post by WindsorShrew on Dec 10, 2010 9:40:41 GMT 1
Of course it is a right for people (peacefully) to demonstrate at perceived wrongs.
It is not however an excuse to assault other persons or property.
I would ask the students involved before marching to come up with a detailed plan of where the money should come from should we (and lets not forget it is you and I the tax payer) not continue to fund their chosen career paths. I also disagree that further education is a God given right.
I should also point out that the cost in finance alone will run into hundreds of thousands for yesterdays events. Lets see who will have to pay for that...ermm yep the good old tax payer. Those students studying economics might tell the others that this may result in even less money being available elsewhere.
Finally it makes me laugh that people attack the Liberals for joining a coalition with the Conservatives. Lets not Forget that the party that came second (Labour) offered to form a coalition with the Liberals before the party that came first in the last election.
Thus it would have been acceptable for some to have the 2nd and 3rd choices running the country, yet not the 1st and 3rd......hmmmm selective sour grapes methinks.
Times are tough for us all, yet some squeal much louder than others.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Dec 10, 2010 10:18:22 GMT 1
The lib dems are in the firing line, that is for sure. I doubt Clegg can sleep at the moment. Just like "No more boom and bust" came back to bite Brown hard, so did some of the cocky things the Lib dems said when they could promise anything because they had no chance of actually having to put it into practice. 2010 polling shows us a lot: ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/voting-intentionThere has only been one loser in the last 6 months.
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Post by simianus on Dec 10, 2010 10:38:33 GMT 1
Of course it is a right for people (peacefully) to demonstrate at perceived wrongs. It is not however an excuse to assault other persons or property. I would ask the students involved before marching to come up with a detailed plan of where the money should come from should we (and lets not forget it is you and I the tax payer) not continue to fund their chosen career paths. I also disagree that further education is a God given right. I should also point out that the cost in finance alone will run into hundreds of thousands for yesterdays events. Lets see who will have to pay for that...ermm yep the good old tax payer. Those students studying economics might tell the others that this may result in even less money being available elsewhere. Finally it makes me laugh that people attack the Liberals for joining a coalition with the Conservatives. Lets not Forget that the party that came second (Labour) offered to form a coalition with the Liberals before the party that came first in the last election. Thus it would have been acceptable for some to have the 2nd and 3rd choices running the country, yet not the 1st and 3rd......hmmmm selective sour grapes methinks. Times are tough for us all, yet some squeal much louder than others. if it wasnt the students, it would have been another demonstration that caused this trouble. the wider context cant be ignored, bankers and MP's have behaved irresponsibly over the last few years(at the very least), but have had little or no comeback. people feel ignored and disregarded, and the edges of society show that with their behaviour. yes , people squeal when they get the cuts, but the only ones who havent are the little piggies that caused this supposed mess and that injustice is part of this. and the tories have caused much this imo, they could have set cost cutting at a sensible pace, but they want to have a warchest for the next election, so they have cut harder
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Post by Scarecrow on Dec 10, 2010 10:51:03 GMT 1
I went to the protest yesterday with a coach load of students. I can tell you now that while there were some trouble makers in the group the media is covering the police up in all of this. I went peacefully to demonstrate but once police kettled us in people became angry and the police began hitting innocent people with batterns. This annoyed more and more students and once the horses charged all support for the police was gone. We were cold, tired and just wanted to leave however the police made this near impossible. As police tried to kettle everyone in and push us all closer together we all started to get crushed and people at the front couldn't move back anymore and just kept getting hit. While I condemn what happened with the rioting the police are as much to blame although this won't make the news, I saw one women chanting a bonfire chant and got pulled out of her wheelchair and hit by two policemen with battens.
If the police want our respect and support then they should treat us with respect, I did not get involved in the direct action but anger comes from the police's actions and attitudes.
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Post by simianus on Dec 10, 2010 11:04:03 GMT 1
I went to the protest yesterday with a coach load of students. I can tell you now that while there were some trouble makers in the group the media is covering the police up in all of this. I went peacefully to demonstrate but once police kettled us in people became angry and the police began hitting innocent people with batterns. This annoyed more and more students and once the horses charged all support for the police was gone. We were cold, tired and just wanted to leave however the police made this near impossible. As police tried to kettle everyone in and push us all closer together we all started to get crushed and people at the front couldn't move back anymore and just kept getting hit. While I condemn what happened with the rioting the police are as much to blame although this won't make the news, I saw one women chanting a bonfire chant and got pulled out of her wheelchair and hit by two policemen with battens. If the police want our respect and support then they should treat us with respect, I did not get involved in the direct action but anger comes from the police's actions and attitudes. i think you need to change your status from archivist to activist this has been the pattern for a number of years, manufactured consent is a reality. I respect what you are all doing, a more politically aware and active youth is what this country needs
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Post by Jonah on Dec 10, 2010 11:12:10 GMT 1
I went to the protest yesterday with a coach load of students. I can tell you now that while there were some trouble makers in the group the media is covering the police up in all of this. I went peacefully to demonstrate but once police kettled us in people became angry and the police began hitting innocent people with batterns. This annoyed more and more students and once the horses charged all support for the police was gone. We were cold, tired and just wanted to leave however the police made this near impossible. As police tried to kettle everyone in and push us all closer together we all started to get crushed and people at the front couldn't move back anymore and just kept getting hit. While I condemn what happened with the rioting the police are as much to blame although this won't make the news, I saw one women chanting a bonfire chant and got pulled out of her wheelchair and hit by two policemen with battens. If the police want our respect and support then they should treat us with respect, I did not get involved in the direct action but anger comes from the police's actions and attitudes. Love the 'its never us its always them' attitude. The female student leader trying to defend yesterdays actions on BBC news this morning was nothing more than a disgrace. She chose to totally ignore the questions about the violence in a manner that suggested she condoned it. Whatever sympathy many had with the students quickly evaporated yesterday. These so called 'students' who are supposed to be intelligent people are our future The future doesnt look very bright does it?
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Post by salopianed on Dec 10, 2010 11:26:46 GMT 1
In 2002, 400,000 marched as part of the Countryside Alliance's "Liberty and Livelihood" march in London. Despite this incredible number, the protest was peaceful, and received only a few seconds on TV and a similar number of column inches in the press. Just two years later, MP's voted to ban hunting. The fight had been lost.
Yet, yesterday's images will live long in the memory, just as those from the Poll Tax Riots did. It will keep keep the coalition on their toes and illustrates that today's youth won't just roll over and accept everything that politicians try to impose on them (politicians who nearly all got where they are now as a result of a University education; an education which was, let's not forget, free.
Pictures can paint a thousand words - a bit of violence might go along way in repealing the increase in tuition fees, because apathy certainly won't.
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Post by WindsorShrew on Dec 10, 2010 11:31:38 GMT 1
if it wasnt the students, it would have been another demonstration that caused this trouble. I think you are right there, I feel that more protest may be just around the corner. However I reiterate that none should turn to damage or violence. The wider context cant be ignored, bankers and MP's have behaved irresponsibly over the last few years(at the very least), but have had little or no comeback. people feel ignored and disregarded, and the edges of society show that with their behavior. yes , people squeal when they get the cuts, but the only ones who haven't are the little piggies that caused this supposed mess and that injustice is part of this. Agree about the bankers as well, I don't pretend to understand the way the system works or why of how (in detail) the problems occurred but I do understand that Mr Brown did not have a "grip" of either the situation or bankers throughout. I also agree that we cannot suffer a reoccurance, thus the clever ones need to control the banks yet allow them to operate competitively at the same time. and the Tories have caused much this imo, they could have set cost cutting at a sensible pace, but they want to have a warchest for the next election, so they have cut harder I also feel you may have a point, after four years of hardship it would be great for them to say..."we have turned the corner" thus can spend...improve....etc The question is are they doing enough to turn the tide now or too much ? One things for sure in times of hardship it is easier to be in opposition bleating.
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Post by heavenlyshrew on Dec 10, 2010 11:39:03 GMT 1
The goverment now should NOT allow anyone with a criminal recold to get any benefit towards higher education.That will sort the idiots out.
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Post by simianus on Dec 10, 2010 11:47:26 GMT 1
if it wasnt the students, it would have been another demonstration that caused this trouble. I think you are right there, I feel that more protest may be just around the corner. However I reiterate that none should turn to damage or violence. Agree about the bankers as well, I don't pretend to understand the way the system works or why of how (in detail) the problems occurred but I do understand that Mr Brown did not have a "grip" of either the situation or bankers throughout. I also agree that we cannot suffer a reoccurance, thus the clever ones need to control the banks yet allow them to operate competitively at the same time. and the Tories have caused much this imo, they could have set cost cutting at a sensible pace, but they want to have a warchest for the next election, so they have cut harder I also feel you may have a point, after four years of hardship it would be great for them to say..."we have turned the corner" thus can spend...improve....etc The question is are they doing enough to turn the tide now or too much ? One things for sure in times of hardship it is easier to be in opposition bleating. bleating? though not specifically directed toward me,it's a bit harsh. when people agree it makes much less noise so complaints are always more noticeable. I'm afraid that it is the only position i can take until we get rid of the "political class" that is there to serve business leaders rather than the people. Every government we are likely to get is part of that, so all i have left is my limited freedom of speech to express my thoughts.
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Post by simianus on Dec 10, 2010 11:52:37 GMT 1
The goverment now should NOT allow anyone with a criminal recold to get any benefit towards higher education.That will sort the idiots out. do you not think it better to educate idiots? the reality is that students who are charged with serious offenses put their courses in jeopardy, so doing that wouldn't have much change on things. a chap on the radio last night said that local gangs used the demonstration as a cover for their own battles. in the long run, if you want to avoid this sort of thin, you need to keep them happy, people arent.
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Post by simianus on Dec 10, 2010 11:58:21 GMT 1
I went to the protest yesterday with a coach load of students. I can tell you now that while there were some trouble makers in the group the media is covering the police up in all of this. I went peacefully to demonstrate but once police kettled us in people became angry and the police began hitting innocent people with batterns. This annoyed more and more students and once the horses charged all support for the police was gone. We were cold, tired and just wanted to leave however the police made this near impossible. As police tried to kettle everyone in and push us all closer together we all started to get crushed and people at the front couldn't move back anymore and just kept getting hit. While I condemn what happened with the rioting the police are as much to blame although this won't make the news, I saw one women chanting a bonfire chant and got pulled out of her wheelchair and hit by two policemen with battens. If the police want our respect and support then they should treat us with respect, I did not get involved in the direct action but anger comes from the police's actions and attitudes. Love the 'its never us its always them' attitude. The female student leader trying to defend yesterdays actions on BBC news this morning was nothing more than a disgrace. She chose to totally ignore the questions about the violence in a manner that suggested she condoned it. Whatever sympathy many had with the students quickly evaporated yesterday. These so called 'students' who are supposed to be intelligent people are our future [img src="http://www.shropshire.btinternet.co.uk/smiley/ www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0223.gif"].gif [/img] The future doesnt look very bright does it? [/quote] it looks exceedingly bright if you value creativity and freedom of speech. some of the last centuries most creative and intelligent people came from the peace movement in the 1950's. i would much rather a few broken windows and self expression than the buttoned up and repressed sounding world you seemingly want to live in. i think it is a disgrace that given the massive majority of peaceful demonstrators, people like you want to deflect the argument toward the actions of a few. not very democratic that, and by focussing on the violence we ensure it happens again because it gets our attention.
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Post by heavenlyshrew on Dec 10, 2010 12:02:10 GMT 1
No Marcus i dont want criminals working in our NHS,schools and other public sector jobs.Who knows what they are capible of.People who are found and given criminal recolds should be treated criminals and not given handouts by the goverment,if they cant control themselves they should learn the hard way.
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Post by heavenlyshrew on Dec 10, 2010 12:03:30 GMT 1
Btw Marcus do you want criminals working for the NHS and teaching your children and grand children?
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Post by simianus on Dec 10, 2010 12:17:46 GMT 1
No Marcus i dont want criminals working in our NHS,schools and other public sector jobs.Who knows what they are capible of.People who are found and given criminal recolds should be treated criminals and not given handouts by the goverment,if they cant control themselves they should learn the hard way. you suggested it was to deter people from violence. people with criminal records do work for the NHS and in public sector jobs. i think you are sort of missing the point of the argument.
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Post by heavenlyshrew on Dec 10, 2010 12:22:59 GMT 1
Marcus if you think that is right then find me some proof.I had to have 2 CRB checks before i starte my job with surestart and now i had to have another crb check since i got the job with the Shropshire F.A. I dont belive for 1 min that people with criminal recolds would be able to work in the NHS or be teachers esp people with recolds for rioting and assult on the police.
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