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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2010 13:53:14 GMT 1
I saw the murders that have taken place in Shrewsbury recently and thought thank god I live in Birmingham and not Shrewsbury... Ant to be honest that is the most stupid thing you have posted on B&A I didn't expect you to grasp what I was trying to achieve what that post so I wouldn't worry yourself about it.
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Post by Amsterdammer on Nov 18, 2010 14:30:25 GMT 1
It's quite funny that two of the frequent posters on this thread who see no problem with mass COLONIZATION[glow=red,2,300][/glow] in Britain according to their profiles are based in Holland and Germany. Thats a long long way from good ol' Smethwickstan. A bit of an outside perspective helps us spot some of the 'stierestront' spouted on this issue by the likes of you. At the last count, Britain was 92% white and a similar %age of British-born. And where have I advocated mass colonisation?* I wouldn't normally be so pedantic, but you might notice 'colonisation' is spelt with an S not a Z. Another fine example of the takeover of our language by American words and spelling.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Nov 18, 2010 14:54:04 GMT 1
Just maybe slightly off topic but there is a Daily Mail story that leads with: By 2066, white Britons 'will be outnumbered' if immigration continues at current rates. I don't want to highlight that article as I believe it's not 100% accurate (well it is the Mail) While I believe that we should not be complacent about the potential for social disruption caused by immigration of people of different religious and cultural backgrounds, this is pure scare mongering - the stock in trade of the Daily Mail. Exactly the same fears were expressed about Irish immigration, the Irish had huge families, did not integrate and practised a religion that was despised and distrusted and were portrayed as sub humans in the popular press. But the Irish integrated and are now an accepted section of our population. Studies show that the initial wave of immigrants continue the culture of their countries of origin, but subsequent generations conform to the norms of the society they live in. So,while my Irish great grandfather had 9 children, I only have 3.
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Post by venceremos on Nov 18, 2010 14:57:02 GMT 1
So if current rates of immigration continue UNTIL 2066(!), white Britons will become a minority.
Typically stupid nonsense from the Daily Mail. Put another way, those statistics say that, even if current rates of immigration stayed the same, it would take 56 YEARS for that change to come about.
What that really says is it's never going to happen - patterns of immigration are not constant, for all sorts of reasons, so a 56 year period might as well be 156 years, or 256 years, or never.
By 2066, economic migrants will have preferred Asia to Europe for several decades and Africa will be the fastest growing economic region.
Everything changes in time, except perhaps the Daily Mail - supporter of fascism in the 1930s, lest we forget.
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Post by SY3 on Nov 18, 2010 14:59:22 GMT 1
It's quite funny that two of the frequent posters on this thread who see no problem with mass COLONIZATION[glow=red,2,300][/glow] in Britain according to their profiles are based in Holland and Germany. Thats a long long way from good ol' Smethwickstan. A bit of an outside perspective helps us spot some of the 'stierestront' spouted on this issue by the likes of you. At the last count, Britain was 92% white and a similar %age of British-born. And where have I advocated mass colonisation?* I wouldn't normally be so pedantic, but you might notice 'colonisation' is spelt with an S not a Z. Another fine example of the takeover of our language by American words and spelling. You may feel what i type is wrong but thats fine with me. I think what you type is cr@p also but i'm sure thats fine with you. Oh i see, weren't some if not all of the 7/7 bombers British born? If so cracking statistic that i commend you. Be as pedantic and petty as you like, i really couldn't give a damn - it shows up what type of person you are imo. This laptop automatically changes the letter 's' to a 'z', i am fully aware of the correct spelling of this word, but when at work i only have a limited amount of time to type messages so the odd error may crop up. I wasn't aware this was a game of university challenge anyway.
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Post by venceremos on Nov 18, 2010 15:05:05 GMT 1
SY3 - don't see the need for personal abuse. It is quite ironic and mildly amusing that you used an American spelling for a post about this country being taken over.
Anyway, you had time to put the word in caps and underline it - how long to put the "S" in? [I'm joking, not having a go.]
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Post by SY3 on Nov 18, 2010 15:12:30 GMT 1
SY3 - don't see the need for personal abuse. It is quite ironic and mildly amusing that you used an American spelling for a post about this country being taken over. Anyway, you had time to put the word in caps and underline it - how long to put the "S" in? [I'm joking, not having a go.] Well yeah i can see the funny side of that i guess - just i'm being honest with this debate, it's how i truly feel and i am genuinely concerned for the future really. No offence intended to anyone personally, amsterdammer, i am sure your a lovely person - just a little pedantic at times.
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Post by Shrewed on Nov 18, 2010 15:46:56 GMT 1
All I know is that these people assisted in the making of the Dispatches programme, I hadnt heard of them previously, why would I? My point is about the title of this thread, you have consistantly cajoled me, are you trying to say I am a racist maybe? They tell the same story as the Times but in blunter terms (January 30th 2009): Muslim population 'rising 10 times faster than rest of society' Richard Kerbaj The Muslim population in Britain has grown by more than 500,000 to 2.4 million in just four years, according to official research collated for The Times. The population multiplied 10 times faster than the rest of society, the research by the Office for National Statistics reveals. In the same period the number of Christians in the country fell by more than 2 million. =================================================================== It is quite clear that many people are happy for extremists to promote violence on the streets. Stockportshrew, I do agree that at the moment it may well be certain areas within towns and cities but with the population explosion taking place across Britain it doesnt take a scientist to realise that eventually the numbers will be alarming. Just take a visit to somewhere like Oldham, Burnley, Bradford, Huddersfield and certain parts of London. I think you will also find that most of these places have a great deal of control by Muslim leaders. The Dispatches documentary highlighted the fact that some had been helped there by the IFE. Hope2010 What I dont like (and the whole point of my input into this thread) is the fact that extremists can preach hate, burn the Union Flag, burn poppies (knowing what it means to people) and protest in places like Wooton Bassett when our dead are brought home. If you're okay with this then good on ya! It's a free country after all. As I've already said this is my opinion, and you nor anyone else will ever make me feel differently. You keep believing in what you want, and i'll do the same. Blum lets get it straight I am against extremist from all religuous, political, or terrorist group. What I will not do is condemn 2m+ British Citizens because of their racist or religion and because of the action of a few of their number, to do so would be in my opinion racist. The population statistics you quote are at least confusing in that they suggest that over the last four years the population has decreased by 1.5m when we know that is not the case. 75% of children born in the UK in 2009 were born to mother born in the UK. Rather than using statistics produced by this and then paper / organisation you would be far better using the National Statistics. www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=14408Out of interest I one of your so called areas controlled by Muslims - Oldham. Oldham council has 20 wards each with 3 councillors. Out of 60 councillors I'd suggest that a maximum of 11 are possible Muslims. These 11 councillors represent only 4 of the twenty wards. Hardly a Muslim controlled council. Blum you are entitled to your opinion and I wouldn't consider trying to change your views but I do object to factually incorrect data being used to justify your arguments. Remember the media in this country has its own agenda.
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Post by nicko on Nov 18, 2010 16:22:51 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2010 17:09:20 GMT 1
blimey, teenager in facebook bullying shocker. this kind of thing goes on every minute of the day to some teenager somewhere in friggin britain. of coarse the big story here is that Muslims where involved. who was the white girl? what did she have on her facebook page? if they broke the law, let the law deal with it. why does the daily mail have to use it as another rod to beat! how often do you see articles in the daily mail about bullying on facebook. only an idiot (no offense Doobie can fail to see the agenda here. [We dont need to worry about stoies like this,matron and others have told us everything will be ok. I am sure those making the threats against that lad will grow up to be model British citizens. no offense intended heavenly, but you really are a clueless moron sometimes. you are not capable of giving anything remotely intelligent to the discussion, so instead keep throwing stupid jibes. no wonder everyone ignores you.
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Post by mattmw on Nov 18, 2010 18:40:26 GMT 1
Just maybe slightly off topic but there is a Daily Mail story that leads with: By 2066, white Britons 'will be outnumbered' if immigration continues at current rates. I don't want to highlight that article as I believe it's not 100% accurate (well it is the Mail) While I believe that we should not be complacent about the potential for social disruption caused by immigration of people of different religious and cultural backgrounds, this is pure scare mongering - the stock in trade of the Daily Mail. Exactly the same fears were expressed about Irish immigration, the Irish had huge families, did not integrate and practised a religion that was despised and distrusted and were portrayed as sub humans in the popular press. But the Irish integrated and are now an accepted section of our population. Studies show that the initial wave of immigrants continue the culture of their countries of origin, but subsequent generations conform to the norms of the society they live in. So,while my Irish great grandfather had 9 children, I only have 3. Good points made there. Clearly new immigrants to the country are more likely to maintain the cultures from the country the originate from, but most studies show these get diluted through time as new generations are born and take on new characteristics There is no doubt that Britain will be a very different place in 60 years than it is now, but that's normal. If we went back 60 years we'd struggle to recognise that society. As stated in an earlier post I'd maintain poverty and lack of opportunity is a bigger threat to society than religion or immigration
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Post by saladsaladsalad on Nov 18, 2010 19:03:10 GMT 1
blimey, teenager in facebook bullying shocker. this kind of thing goes on every minute of the day to some teenager somewhere in friggin britain. of coarse the big story here is that Muslims where involved. Fair enough, bullying happens at every school. However don't you find it a bit worrying that these 12 year old Muslim kids use such phrases as 'I'm gonna fly a plane into your house with your family in' - at the very least glorifying muslim extremism & terrorism. Makes me worry what they hear at home to almost be inspired by acts like that and using it as a threat to a schoolmate. Surely responsible Muslim parents would be teaching their children that extermists/terrorists are deplorable.
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Post by mattmw on Nov 18, 2010 19:19:01 GMT 1
Think a lot of 12 year old kids say things to get a reaction without really knowing what it is they are saying, or indeed having any intention to do the things they say
Remember when I was at school and the Hungerford shootings happened - kids at school said some similar things back then
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Post by venceremos on Nov 18, 2010 19:19:23 GMT 1
blimey, teenager in facebook bullying shocker. this kind of thing goes on every minute of the day to some teenager somewhere in friggin britain. of coarse the big story here is that Muslims where involved. Fair enough, bullying happens at every school. However don't you find it a bit worrying that these 12 year old Muslim kids use such phrases as 'I'm gonna fly a plane into your house with your family in' - at the very least glorifying muslim extremism & terrorism. Makes me worry what they hear at home to almost be inspired by acts like that and using it as a threat to a schoolmate. Surely responsible Muslim parents would be teaching their children that extermists/terrorists are deplorable. How do you know their parents aren't teaching them that? These are 12 year old kids for goodness' sake - it's teen rebellion time. If you were a teenage Muslim, what better way to shock and rebel against your elders? It's a long, long, long stretch from 12 year old kids being stupid and insensitive to someone becoming a suicide bomber.
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Post by saladsaladsalad on Nov 18, 2010 19:35:24 GMT 1
Fair enough, bullying happens at every school. However don't you find it a bit worrying that these 12 year old Muslim kids use such phrases as 'I'm gonna fly a plane into your house with your family in' - at the very least glorifying muslim extremism & terrorism. Makes me worry what they hear at home to almost be inspired by acts like that and using it as a threat to a schoolmate. Surely responsible Muslim parents would be teaching their children that extermists/terrorists are deplorable. How do you know their parents aren't teaching them that? These are 12 year old kids for goodness' sake - it's teen rebellion time. If you were a teenage Muslim, what better way to shock and rebel against your elders? It's a long, long, long stretch from 12 year old kids being stupid and insensitive to someone becoming a suicide bomber. No such thing as 12 year old teens. Sorry thats my turn to be pedantic. Far too many Muslims for my liking either strongly approve/slightly approve or aren't opposed to extremism and terrorism. This filters down into the younger generations very quickly. In 2006 The Times and ITV commissioned an opinion poll into Britains' Muslims opinions on extremism & terrorism. Six per cent of British Muslims believe that the 7/7 bombers were acting according to the true principles of Islam, while 7 per cent agree that suicide attacks on civilians in Britain can be justified under certain circumstances, a figure that rises to 16 per cent if the target is the military.Not massive percentages maybe, but to think 13% (greater than 1 in 8) UK Muslims thought the 7/7 bombers were acting according to Islam or that suicide attacks on British civilians can be justified under certain circumstances, hardly befits this 'tiny amount' of Muslims that you and the other Muslim spokespersons would have us believe. In fact that was 4 years ago, after continued conflict in Iraq/Afghanistan the figures could well be higher now.
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Post by mattmw on Nov 18, 2010 19:46:27 GMT 1
Would need to see how the poll was carried out to comment fully, but generally such polls involve interviewing 200 or so people and have a 10% error rate, so transferring the figures to a larger population isn't really statistically accurate. If it's a you gov poll it maybe less than 200 people interviewed from a self selected group
That's not to say that extremism isn't preached in some Muslim communities though
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Post by saladsaladsalad on Nov 18, 2010 19:51:39 GMT 1
Would need to see how the poll was carried out to comment fully, but generally such polls involve interviewing 200 or so people and have a 10% error rate, so transferring the figures to a larger population isn't really statistically accurate. If it's a you gov poll it maybe less than 200 people interviewed from a self selected group That's not to say that extremism isn't preached in some Muslim communities though 1,131 Muslims interviewed for the poll - a high enough number to make the margin of error less than 3%. Any other excuses? www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article682585.ece
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Post by mattmw on Nov 18, 2010 20:19:55 GMT 1
1131 people interviewed by phone from a random sample by populas link to the survey results here www.populuslimited.com/the-times-itv-news-muslim-77-poll-050706.htmlAt that level of surveying the error rate is 6% you need 2036 people to be interviewed using a weighting system to have a 3% error rate Interesting results none the less especially showing the contrasts in views between Muslims and non Muslims. Perhaps the most interesting question is the one over whether Muslims should do more to integrate. Around two thirds of respondents from Muslim and none Muslims agreed with this statement, which I think is broadly what most people on the thread have been suggesting should happen
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Post by Shrewed on Nov 18, 2010 20:29:47 GMT 1
Would need to see how the poll was carried out to comment fully, but generally such polls involve interviewing 200 or so people and have a 10% error rate, so transferring the figures to a larger population isn't really statistically accurate. If it's a you gov poll it maybe less than 200 people interviewed from a self selected group That's not to say that extremism isn't preached in some Muslim communities though 1,131 Muslims interviewed for the poll - a high enough number to make the margin of error less than 3%. Any other excuses? www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article682585.eceMost interesting statistic only 2% would be proud of an Al-Qaeda relative. Puts thing into perspective.
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Post by saladsaladsalad on Nov 18, 2010 20:42:39 GMT 1
1131 people interviewed by phone from a random sample by populas link to the survey results here www.populuslimited.com/the-times-itv-news-muslim-77-poll-050706.htmlAt that level of surveying the error rate is 6% you need 2036 people to be interviewed using a weighting system to have a 3% error rate Interesting results none the less especially showing the contrasts in views between Muslims and non Muslims. Perhaps the most interesting question is the one over whether Muslims should do more to integrate. Around two thirds of respondents from Muslim and none Muslims agreed with this statement, which I think is broadly what most people on the thread have been suggesting should happen Ok, I should have said +/- 3%, still very accurate though. Its difficult to see what the starting point is for increased integration - reduced sympathy for extremism would certainly be a start, as would protests at memorial services/the return of british forces. Schools which have 65%+ Muslim children cant help integration either of the youngest generation. People have pointed out previously that no towns/cities/boroughs are mainly Muslim so why are the schools? Edit to say: To hope2010 - So thats only 32,000 Muslims in the UK who would be proud of an Al-Qaeda relative, and that reassures you?!?!?!
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Post by mattmw on Nov 18, 2010 21:10:06 GMT 1
I'd say with the schools issue it's to do with parents being given increasing powers to decide school recruitment policies. So you tend to get like minded people grouping together to influence school policy - hence catholic schools, church of England schools and Muslim schools
It was started by the last government and The new government plans to expand it. Its not something im personally in favour of as I don't think self selecting schools are a good idea and discriminate against people from poor backgrounds
Thought the most interesting statistic in the survey was that 87% of Muslims interviewed had a close personal friend who was a non Muslim, but only 33% of none Muslims had a close personal friend who was Muslim - if you believe the stats that shows the Muslim population are much better at integrating than non Muslims are
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2010 21:28:07 GMT 1
I'd say with the schools issue it's to do with parents being given increasing powers to decide school recruitment policies. So you tend to get like minded people grouping together to influence school policy - hence catholic schools, church of England schools and Muslim schools It was started by the last government and The new government plans to expand it. Its not something im personally in favour of as I don't think self selecting schools are a good idea and discriminate against people from poor backgrounds Thought the most interesting statistic in the survey was that 87% of Muslims interviewed had a close personal friend who was a non Muslim, but only 33% of none Muslims had a close personal friend who was Muslim - if you believe the stats that shows the Muslim population are much better at integrating than non Muslims are Sorry, but the above , well , maybe its me, but if 87% of Muslims had etc etc, then 87% of non muslims had etc etc. The stats are based on the sample interviewed and the resultant interpretation is, quite frankly......bollox. Another thing, what exactly are you attempting to prove with these stats, that Muslims are friendlier people than non muslims!!
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Post by Shrewed on Nov 18, 2010 21:31:06 GMT 1
Edit to say: To hope2010 - So thats only 32,000 Muslims in the UK who would be proud of an Al-Qaeda relative, and that reassures you?!?!?! Helluva jump from 22 to 32,000 thats stretching statistical analysis a bit too far. baystonblue you need to remember that for every Muslim in this country there a roughly 30 non muslims thats what affects the percentages.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2010 21:32:03 GMT 1
I saw the murders that have taken place in Shrewsbury recently and thought thank god I live in Birmingham and not Shrewsbury... :)Very good. Not all falls on stony ground.
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Post by mattmw on Nov 18, 2010 21:55:22 GMT 1
I'd say with the schools issue it's to do with parents being given increasing powers to decide school recruitment policies. So you tend to get like minded people grouping together to influence school policy - hence catholic schools, church of England schools and Muslim schools It was started by the last government and The new government plans to expand it. Its not something im personally in favour of as I don't think self selecting schools are a good idea and discriminate against people from poor backgrounds Thought the most interesting statistic in the survey was that 87% of Muslims interviewed had a close personal friend who was a non Muslim, but only 33% of none Muslims had a close personal friend who was Muslim - if you believe the stats that shows the Muslim population are much better at integrating than non Muslims are Sorry, but the above , well , maybe its me, but if 87% of Muslims had etc etc, then 87% of non muslims had etc etc. The stats are based on the sample interviewed and the resultant interpretation is, quite frankly......*. Another thing, what exactly are you attempting to prove with these stats, that Muslims are friendlier people than non muslims!! Sorry i wrote that whilst distracted by nigella On tv - in simple terms the survey showed muslims have more friends outside their religious group than non Muslims do - therefore muslims are clearly taking more steps to integrate than any other religion (if you believe the statistics are accurate) I was trying to point out that the same survey showed a number of different characteristics of the Muslim population and that statistics can be shown in different ways to make different arguments. Just as it's daft to say Muslims are friendlier people than other religions is equally as daft to say the survey proves tens of thousands of muslims support terrorism. Basing any argument on one set of statistics has it's drawbacks and a wider perspective is needed to get the full picture
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Post by saladsaladsalad on Nov 18, 2010 21:59:26 GMT 1
Edit to say: To hope2010 - So thats only 32,000 Muslims in the UK who would be proud of an Al-Qaeda relative, and that reassures you?!?!?! Helluva jump from 22 to 32,000 thats stretching statistical analysis a bit too far. You mean from 2% to 32,000? Well as the UK muslim population at time of the poll was 1.6 million, its fact, with a +/- 3% margin of error as we established above In fact its a lot worse than you made out: What would your reaction be if a close member of your family chose to join one of the following organisations? Al Qaeda
2% Pride 2% Acceptance 16% Indifference
So 20% or 320,000 UK Muslims would be either unopposed or in favour of a relative joining Al Qaeda.
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Post by mattmw on Nov 18, 2010 22:17:08 GMT 1
Looking more closely at the survey the results are based on interviews with 1131 people and this includes both Muslims and none Muslims, but it doesn't list how many from each group make up the results - you'd assume it's 50 50 but it's not clear.
It also doesn't include under 18s which would ring a few alarm bells and without knowing the survey group it would be a little unwise to place these results across a wider population because they may not have shared characteristics across the county - ie people in London quite probably view terrorism differently to people in somewhere in mid Wales
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2010 22:22:01 GMT 1
Sorry, but the above , well , maybe its me, but if 87% of Muslims had etc etc, then 87% of non muslims had etc etc. The stats are based on the sample interviewed and the resultant interpretation is, quite frankly......*. Another thing, what exactly are you attempting to prove with these stats, that Muslims are friendlier people than non muslims!! Sorry i wrote that whilst distracted by nigella On tv - in simple terms the survey showed muslims have more friends outside their religious group than non Muslims do - therefore muslims are clearly taking more steps to integrate than any other religion (if you believe the statistics are accurate) I was trying to point out that the same survey showed a number of different characteristics of the Muslim population and that statistics can be shown in different ways to make different arguments. Just as it's daft to say Muslims are friendlier people than other religions is equally as daft to say the survey proves tens of thousands of muslims support terrorism. Basing any argument on one set of statistics has it's drawbacks and a wider perspective is needed to get the full picture
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2010 22:29:13 GMT 1
Sorry, but the above , well , maybe its me, but if 87% of Muslims had etc etc, then 87% of non muslims had etc etc. The stats are based on the sample interviewed and the resultant interpretation is, quite frankly......*. Another thing, what exactly are you attempting to prove with these stats, that Muslims are friendlier people than non muslims!! Sorry i wrote that whilst distracted by nigella On tv - in simple terms the survey showed muslims have more friends outside their religious group than non Muslims do - therefore muslims are clearly taking more steps to integrate than any other religion (if you believe the statistics are accurate) I was trying to point out that the same survey showed a number of different characteristics of the Muslim population and that statistics can be shown in different ways to make different arguments. Just as it's daft to say Muslims are friendlier people than other religions is equally as daft to say the survey proves tens of thousands of muslims support terrorism. :)Now i get your point.Just a tip,keep clear of Nigella, her points are a major distraction. Basing any argument on one set of statistics has it's drawbacks and a wider perspective is needed to get the full picture
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Post by mattmw on Nov 18, 2010 22:36:18 GMT 1
In a recent survey 100% of wives stopped their husbands watching nigella!
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