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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2010 23:34:09 GMT 1
Unfortunately. I have witnessed 3 of our defeats and Neal maybe only partly to blame for one of the goals. At Morecambe and Gillingham our defeats would have been heavier but for him.
Button was very much maligned by other supporters when he came to us last season but improved during the season and was still short of the finished article. Notice, though, that he was signed by Spurs as a potential Premiership keeper.
Neal is not a Premiership keeper (yet???), so what do you expect. We have been spoiled the last two years.
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Post by theyesman on Nov 14, 2010 23:43:09 GMT 1
We have two young keepers, learning their trades. Mistakes happen with young keepers, with the good comes the bad. Only giving them long periods in the team will help them improve. However, i do feel Neal's made one too many mistakes and maybe now Smith needs a sustained period in the team.
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Post by shrew4life on Nov 14, 2010 23:46:14 GMT 1
I don't get when people say we would have lost by more if it wasn't for Neal. He's a keeper it's his job to save shots!
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Post by champagneprince on Nov 14, 2010 23:50:23 GMT 1
CP - just a very quick look on shrewsweb - last few league games home and away and the number of shots the opposition has had Away: Stevenage 14 (5 on) Crewe 12 (5 on) Chesterfield 17 (5 on) Total: 43 (15 on) Home: Barnet 11 (3 on) Lincoln 10 (3 on) Torquay 16 (5 on) Total: 37 (11 on) The stats are available for each game's match report on shrewsweb. Make of that what you will. Good stuff Ant. In addition to that : HomeBradford 12 (5 on) - Ben Smith was in goal Aldershot 9 (3 on) Rotherham 25 (16 on) Northampton 8 (7 on) 54 (31 on) AwayMorecame 14 (7 on) Vale 8 (2 on) Wycombe 11 (6 on) Gills 9 (3 on) Stockport 3 (1 on) Maccy 9 (2 on) - Ben Smith until 21st min, then Neal came on 54 (21 on) Total home 37 (11 on) + 42 (26 on) = 79 (37 on) from 6 games Total away 43 (15 on) + 54 (21 on) = 97 (36 on) from 9 games So it appears from those stats that indeed Ant is correct and I will happily stand corrected. Away we have conceded 12 goals from 36 shots on target. Home we have conceded 5 goals from 37 on target. The Rotherham game (home) was a bit of a blip on the stats front as they had a massive 16 on target. However, even discounting that blip the average shots against away is 4 and the average home is 4.33 (6 with the Rotherham blip). In Chris Neals favour, not to let any in from the 16 on target in the Rotherham game seems a MOTM 'stats' performance and I notice that he was indeed voted MOTM in that game (also at Gillingham, and was also September MOTM). Conclusion By stats alone this shows that Neal is much better at preventing goals at home (other than any shots cleared by a defender that were on target) It also shows that he has conceded 17 from 73 (23 %) on target and it might be interesting (if any has the time) to judge how that compares with other clubs in the division. I think this will then give us a true picture as to how Neals 21% compares versus other keepers and possibly against Towns other keepers in the past also.
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Post by ShrewsburySTFC on Nov 15, 2010 1:24:46 GMT 1
And he's saved a penalty and was in goal for a penalty that went over. And about 5 goals have been worldies from outside the box, or freekicks right on the edge of the box (and goals like Vale's were pretty unstoppable). And a couple of goals have been penalties.
He has saved some shots I thought a keeper couldn't get to. Sod the 2 or 3 mistakes, he's saved us much more than he's cost us. Leave him in!
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Post by Bob Rickerton on Nov 15, 2010 1:28:26 GMT 1
I don't get when people say we would have lost by more if it wasn't for Neal. He's a keeper it's his job to save shots! Odd logic. If we're not supposed to judge him by saves he's made, what are we supposed to judge him on?
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onetommyb
Shropshire County League
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Post by onetommyb on Nov 15, 2010 10:13:18 GMT 1
Why do we need to look for a problem with the starting 11 when we are 3rd in the league?
Should Robinson be dropped as he dragged that chance wide on Saturday when through on goal?
It is crazy - lets get behind Chris Neal. He is 25 years old but is in his first season as a first choice. This season he has started 14 league games and made one appearance as sub, he has also played one game in the FA Cup and one in the League Cup. He has already played more this season than any other. He played 9 in all competitions last season. He has also played more games this season than he had in his whole career before the season started.
He has the potential to be our number for several years to come, I don't remember people jumping on Joe Hart, Luke Daniels or David Button's back when playing in their first full seasons, and Daniels made some big errors. I feel people forget that Chris Neal is in the same position.
If we say he cost us 2 points on Saturday and 2 points against Wycombe. Does securing 3 points at home against Rotherham make it that he has cost us 1 point this season. I'd take that from a League Two keeper.
Let get behind him!
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Post by SouthStandShrew on Nov 15, 2010 11:10:48 GMT 1
He is not good enough, simples.
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Post by shrew4life on Nov 15, 2010 11:24:07 GMT 1
I don't get when people say we would have lost by more if it wasn't for Neal. He's a keeper it's his job to save shots! Odd logic. If we're not supposed to judge him by saves he's made, what are we supposed to judge him on? Well it's like judging a striker not on his goals but the quality of his goals. It makes no sense as long as he's scoring then fine and the same with Neal as long as he's making the saves then good. The fact is though he's not making the saves were judging him on his mistakes.
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Post by shrew4life on Nov 15, 2010 11:27:45 GMT 1
The saves against Rotherham were saves I would expect most keepers in this league to make. They were nothing special and certainly not "worldies".
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Post by stfcfan87 on Nov 15, 2010 11:40:48 GMT 1
I'd agree that some of his saves against Rotherham were not worldies - he had a lot to do and did it, but i wouldn't say it was anymore. In fact from memory I can remember him parrying one shot right out which fell loose in the 6 yard box but that was somehow missed...
Anyway there's been quite a few posters in this thread who have said let's stick with Neal, from what they've seen Smith's no better - erm how many games has Smith played - 4 starts and got injured in 1 of those. Has he made any clangers like Neal's made? How can he be judged so quickly yet Neal's deemed to be more worthwhile despite several mistakes
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Post by Hatfieldshrew on Nov 15, 2010 12:17:37 GMT 1
I think our main problem is that we have been spoilt for keepers over the past few seasons, with quality keepers that are too good for league 2, so it's what we have come to expect.
I know we could do with better but we could have a lot worse eg Garner. Also look at some of the keepers that have played against us this season.
Yes he make a mistake on Saturday, but he didn't let it get to him and played well after it.
No one on here is calling for McIntyre to be dropped because of the awful pass he made and the poor 1/2 half performance, or Disley for the stupid lunge to give away the free kick when their player was covered by the defence.
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Post by stockportershrew on Nov 15, 2010 12:17:59 GMT 1
Neal is easily the most inexperienced player in our side although he's 25 he's probably on a par with a 19/20year old for most other positions - so from this perspective he could well be the weak link. The question is do we give him the chance to develop, (risky as he might not improve to the standard we require), or do we cast him aside and bring in another loan keeper (who will probably disappear at the end of the season leaving back to square 1).
At this stage I'd say stick with him, we're third in the league we not leaking loads of goals. Let's keep a settled back 4 as far as possible.
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Post by ShrewsburySTFC on Nov 15, 2010 13:39:00 GMT 1
I said the goals were worldies, not saves. ie Chesterfield off the top of my head.
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Nov 15, 2010 14:19:16 GMT 1
The problem is not his ability, but his concentration IMO. Aside from these goal-costing mistakes, he has been excellent all season. When something is instinctive, like the save against Barnet, and his performance against Morecambe, then he's fine. It seems to me, when he gets a bit complacent with what appears to be an "easier" save. I think it's a mental thing, but it's important it gets ironed out cos I do think he's a good player and also a very nice man.
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Post by scooter on Nov 15, 2010 14:22:17 GMT 1
I thought we might have had athread like this last week after Southampton, when I was a bit disappointed he didn't push the ball away rather than back into play
No-one else has mentioned this, but I thought he was a bit unlucky at Stevenage. I was sat behind that goal, and I thought Holroyd got a slight deflection on the original shot, which Neal would otherwise have held. It wasn't clear on tv, but that was how I saw it
Unles GT has someone really special lined up for January, I think we will stick with Neal - there are other areas we need to reinforce first
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Post by Lord Ha Ha on Nov 15, 2010 15:01:05 GMT 1
Everybodies either slagging off or praising Neal but where is the goalkeeping coach in all this. Surely Neals errors should be subject to correction during coaching. Joe Hart was capable of the odd clanger when he was with us and good coaching ironed out those errors. No good sending Neal out to play every week if he's still going to bungle thanks to no one helping him to correct his errors on the training ground. Plenty to work on but he has the raw material to be better.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2010 15:24:05 GMT 1
Personally I think Neals place is hanging in the balance and needs a consistent run with no errors.
GT will not be frightened to put Smith back in if he feels Neal form is not reliable enough - he did it in our promotion season 78/79 when he dropped Ken Mulhearn for Bob Wardle part way through the season, and then dropped Wardle around the easter period after heavy away defeats at Blackpool 5-0 and Bury 3-0.
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Post by shrew4life on Nov 15, 2010 15:27:38 GMT 1
I said the goals were worldies, not saves. ie Chesterfield off the top of my head. Oh right sorry misunderstood what you were saying. Thought you were saying worldies in reference to what the Rotherham manager said about Neals saves.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2010 16:33:20 GMT 1
Someone tell me I a goalkeeper that hasn't made a mistake, It is a thankless position, like a wicketkeeper, you do your job, no one notices you, you make a mistake you get people calling for your head, as in this instance, If Chris Neal didn't make as many mistakes, he probably wouldn't be here, He'd be in a league higher, The only keeper I've seen this season that I think is on a par with him is Warrington of Rotherham and he's nearly on the way off, Neal for me
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2010 16:38:30 GMT 1
Someone tell me I a goalkeeper that hasn't made a mistake, It is a thankless position, like a wicketkeeper, you do your job, no one notices you, you make a mistake you get people calling for your head, as in this instance, If Chris Neal didn't make as many mistakes, he probably wouldn't be here, He'd be in a league higher, Neal for me That is very true, but the debate is due to concern of recent mistakes at Chesterfield, Southampton and Stevenage, not to mention Wycombe a few weeks back
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Post by shrew4life on Nov 15, 2010 16:44:56 GMT 1
And his positioning for the free kick against Northampton. Far to many mistakes with still over half the season to go!
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Post by heavenlyshrew on Nov 15, 2010 17:21:24 GMT 1
The 2 above threads show 5 mistakes in 17 games this season.that is far to many and if we we auto promotion we need to get in a keeper who is good enough weather its short or long term get in another keeper GT.
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Post by Slackbladder on Nov 15, 2010 17:39:14 GMT 1
Chris Neal is as good a keeper as any I have seen at this level this season. As a lapsed member of the keepers union I take a real interest in the performances of our keepers and the opposition. Rather than look at just the negative points of a performance as many fans do I judge on the overall display. CN is an excellent shot stopper, he has a decent presence in the area and takes crosses for fun - plenty to build on there. Another positive aspect of his game is the way he reacts to mistakes, he seems to have a good mental attitude which means he does not let errors affect him too much. For me he is a better keeper than Ben Smith from what I have seen, but I accept that this is based on seeing Ben in two or three games. With regard to the goal on Saturday that inspired this thread I have watched it a few times now and believe that Holroyd got the faintest of touches on the initial free kick - very well worked if it was part of the plan - which would have had an effect. Not trying to make excuses for CN but just an observation. Just to finish I guarantee that every outfield player on Saturday made more mistakes than either keeper
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Post by northwestman on Nov 15, 2010 17:49:00 GMT 1
Yes. Neal was exceptionally fortunate that Le Fondre didn't get on the end of that ball he pushed out in the Rotherham game and that someone was on hand to clear off the line when he did the same against Macclesfield.
It seems to be the same basic mistake and one that we pay Gerrard to put right. Either you catch the ball or if in any doubt you push the ball round the post. You do NOT push the ball back into the eighteen yard box.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2010 17:49:36 GMT 1
5 mistakes in 17 seems pretty decent to me to be honest, granted one or two mistake he will have got away with,
like I said for a keeper at this level, you'll struggle to find anyone better I believe,
the key is also to have a settled back four in front of him also,
and yes just think of how many mistakes each outfield player has made this season
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Post by scooter on Nov 15, 2010 17:53:41 GMT 1
With regard to the goal on Saturday that inspired this thread I have watched it a few times now and believe that Holroyd got the faintest of touches on the initial free kick - very well worked if it was part of the plan - which would have had an effect. Not trying to make excuses for CN but just an observation. That is how it looked to me at the time, although it is not obvious on replays. It deflected back towards the centre of the goal, meaning it hit his chest rather than going into his arms
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Post by ambergambler on Nov 15, 2010 18:50:02 GMT 1
Neal at this level is a good keeper not the best granted but i would rather have Neal as our own keeper ,and say spend some loanmoney/ wages on strenghening defence and midfield.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2010 19:18:28 GMT 1
If we are going to evaluate a players performance with statistics, then lets do it properly. How many shots outside the box, inside, into the top corners, into the bottom corners etc etc. As you well know, statistics can prove anything, its just the way they are interpreted. You only have to look at top class goalkeepers such as Gomez, Cech, Hart, Van der Sar, they all make mistakes, the best learn from and become better for it. Neal is still worth his place IMO, and needs support from the club and from us, the supporters. What good does it do his confidence if he is aware that every save/mistake is being anilised and dissected by the fans. Being a young man, and having had little league experience prior to him joining us, he's doing o.k. They say keepers don't reach the peak of their playing ability until they are 30plus. Have patience and stay positive.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2010 20:39:34 GMT 1
Personally I think Neals place is hanging in the balance and needs a consistent run with no errors. GT will not be frightened to put Smith back in if he feels Neal form is not reliable enough - he did it in our promotion season 78/79 when he dropped Ken Mulhearn for Bob Wardle part way through the season, and then dropped Wardle around the easter period after heavy away defeats at Blackpool 5-0 and Bury 3-0. Mulhearn, initially, lost his place through injury. You don't drop a keeper who virtually single-handedly kept us in games at 0-0 or sealed 1-0 wins as he did at the start of that season.
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