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Post by venceremos on Nov 11, 2010 20:05:26 GMT 1
Education is valuable in itself because it makes us better equipped to participate in society and to make the most of our lives. That's why I think it would be wrong to place more value on vocational subjects and make it the priority of every university to turn out "employable" graduates. Work is only one aspect of life. There are others and education helps people in those too.
There's some truth in the arts v sciences gap in this country (hence people will readily joke about being hopeless with numbers but never about being "hopeless at reading"). I think it's exaggerated though. I think it's true that the UK has produced more Nobel Prize winning scientists per capita than any other country, and I think we're second only to the US in absolute terms. That's a great achievement.
How many of those scientists would have achieved so much if they'd been restricted to vocational courses at university, to make them readily employable? How many advances in theoretical science and mathematics would then never have been made?
It's similar in the humanities. I keep hearing people say we need engineers and technical graduates, but not arts and social sciences. That assumes people automatically go into a career related to their degree - I'm a humanities graduate and I'd say most of the graduates I've worked with (in the financial sector) have been maths and science graduates. So what makes their degrees more valuable than mine?
It shouldn't be ignored either, that a very significant proportion of the UK economy is "creative" - the arts, film and music production, television, computer gaming, fashion, publishing etc.
Why would we want to make ourselves less competitive in areas of proven excellence? Why is it better to try to turn back the clock and become a manufacturing economy again, when we will never be able to compete on price and are only likely to succeed in high value, capital intensive manufacturing that requires fewer employees?
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Post by El Presidente on Nov 11, 2010 20:53:21 GMT 1
Vence, I'm not advocating turning us back into a manufacturing based economy...from my very faded memory of my geography lessons, we're a service economy now, and long may it continue. We still need plumbers, electricians, mechanics, bricklayers etc...and there is ample opportunity for employment in these sectors, and good earning potential if you're keen and able to enter self-employment. Gaining a degree at 21 is not the be all and end all to success in life. Degrees can be achieved later in life to complement your existing experience and education; to boost your career.
In fact, many people who wish to push on in life empower themselves to do this by entering adult education; and gaining degrees by distance learning. Ironic, they have to pay for this...Flip the crux of this debate over, why should subsidised HE be the preserve of the 18-21 yr olds in this country?
Education is valuable; it empowers and improves. Those people who's noses are put out of joint by having to pay a bit more for it should stop and think about just how lucky they are to have access to it in the first place. We are working our way through the most difficult economic era this country has faced for over 50 yrs. I have to make sacrifices; my relatives are; we all are. The situation is we all have to suck it up and push on through 5 years of hurt, to emerge better and stronger. Or we can wallow in self pity and stave off dealing with this issue and have a constant rain cloud hanging over us for years to come.
For those who also think the injuries and damage are acceptable in order to demonstrate discontent; would you think in such a way if it was your mother, father, brother or sister who came home with a mashed in face as a result? Protest, yes; shout your hearts out. As soon as you turn to violence you lose the moral debate with any right thinking person. As for the Poll Tax, are we happy with how Council Tax is now working?!
If the nation as a whole is discontented with the way the coalition is running things, then all the unions need to get together and plan joint demonstrations. Mass protest is the key to changing policy, not destroying property and injuring people.
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Post by Mike on Nov 11, 2010 22:50:54 GMT 1
The people on the roof threw a fire exthinguisher which landed 6 inches away from a policeman!
Surely would of killed him if it had of landed on him. So so dangerous that.
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Post by stockportershrew on Nov 12, 2010 0:55:58 GMT 1
I'll declare an interest as a lecturer in HE teaching on what some people would consider to be a micky mouse courses (politics, history, journalism and international relations). (1) There's been some good posts on this thread (with one or two notable exceptions - the usual suspects who could benefit from some education or even reading the odd book). (2) It is slightly depressing to see that quite a few seem to look upon education as simply training for a job or to be valued purely in economic terms. Education should not be about that. Anyway, Veceremos puts the case very well in his post above. (3) Yes - we are living through an major economic crisis but there are choices about spending. Not all governments across Europe are going down our road. Our government has decided to take us down the market route. I fear the result of this is that higher education, particularly at the elite institutions, will become purely the preserve of the already well off. (4) El presidente's point about life-long learning is a good one but I think he's missed the point - in my experience tuition fees killed off part of that market. When I started work in my current institution 15 years ago - over a third of our students were mature students now it is less than 7%. The figure dropped markedly as soon as tuition fees came in - we could see a direct correlation. People in their 30s, 40s and 50s with families simply didn't want to take on an additional debt burden. (5) There's a stereotypical picture of students as middle class layabouts. Now this might be the case at certain Russell Group institutions but it doesn't fit the picture of the vast majority of the students I teach, most of whom are doing jobs (PT and even FT) and a degree. Yes for some maybe it is the wrong choice and they need better options but for some it is a real life changer.
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Post by nicko on Nov 12, 2010 8:28:29 GMT 1
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Nov 12, 2010 10:58:51 GMT 1
Why is it better to try to turn back the clock and become a manufacturing economy again, when we will never be able to compete on price and are only likely to succeed in high value, capital intensive manufacturing that requires fewer employees? Engineering and sciences and you're automatically thinking of a big factory outside Rotherham making widgets. And that is part of the problem. Although all the car manufacturers in the UK do need factories close by to make widgets for them. The Johanesburg train system for the world cup was built in Derby. Rolls Royce engines are used in a lot of places! Beyond that biotech, medical procedures, pharmeceuticals, computer science, mobile telecomms: we're one of the world leaders in many different important science / engineering based growth industries. I do understand that "education" is so much more than the subject and not just about preparing for the workplace. I also think the "education changed my life" story is from the last generation and is actually selling a lie to young people now. There are plenty of graduates up around the place earning under £15,000 a year and struggling to even pay off the older, smaller student debts. My parents came from a mining village outside Wrexham and both went to unversity and so our family is now financially secure and doing well for itself. Their education made that happen. If a kid from that village today goes and studies medicine like my Dad did he will be made for life. If he goes and studies classics at a relatively unknown university he may end up with all the debt and few of the opportunities because just "having a degree" is no longer enough. That is the point I am making. I think we are selling people a dream that is no longer borne out in reality.
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Post by nicko on Nov 12, 2010 11:27:11 GMT 1
Why is it better to try to turn back the clock and become a manufacturing economy again, when we will never be able to compete on price and are only likely to succeed in high value, capital intensive manufacturing that requires fewer employees? I also think the "education changed my life" story is from the last generation and is actually selling a lie to young people now. There are plenty of graduates up around the place earning under £15,000 a year and struggling to even pay off the older, smaller student debts. This isn't just about young people though. There was an interesting piece in the new i newspaper yesterday written by a female journalist who's doing a Phd at London. She wrote that the program for ex-adult offenders is in danger of being cut and funding withdrawn for this type student at her Uni. This was one of the reasons she marched the other day. Education can be life changing for a lot of people, me included and it doesn't have to be about money. I think a lot of people are missing the point about this issue. The point is that in the future people from disadvantaged backgrounds who have the desire and ability to go to University will not be able to due to prohibitive fees. I was told the other day that around 5% of our GDP was spent education. Doesn't seem a lot to me. www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Nov 12, 2010 16:18:20 GMT 1
I think a lot of people are missing the point about this issue. The point is that in the future people from disadvantaged backgrounds who have the desire and ability to go to University will not be able to due to prohibitive fees. Following the demonstration there was a discussion in the 6th form common room at Altrincham Grammar School at which most of those present stated that they were not interested in tuition fees as the fees would be paid by their parents. Thus the dominance of an elite from a very narrow socio/economic group is strengthened even further. We no longer have an economy that can offer millions of unskilled jobs and we are told that we will have to rely on innovation and knowledge for our future prosperity, so how does this square with cutting education budgets and reducing the opportunities of the very people who need it most?
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Post by creature on Nov 12, 2010 20:21:03 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2010 20:30:21 GMT 1
I'll declare an interest as a lecturer in HE teaching on what some people would consider to be a micky mouse courses (politics, history, journalism and international relations). Are there really people that consider History as a 'micky mouse' subject? Perhaps I'm being defensive as I currently study it - but that's certainly not the impression I've got.
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Post by stockportershrew on Nov 12, 2010 21:34:57 GMT 1
I'll declare an interest as a lecturer in HE teaching on what some people would consider to be a micky mouse courses (politics, history, journalism and international relations). Are there really people that consider History as a 'micky mouse' subject? Perhaps I'm being defensive as I currently study it - but that's certainly not the impression I've got. History probably has more credibility than the others but I have come across quite a few people who think that even degrees in subjects History, English literature etc are a waste of time.
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