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Post by cabanas2017 on Oct 4, 2023 10:39:01 GMT 1
Greenhous, Salop Caravans, Tuffins but only if RW has no input at the FC, possibly a consortium of them all?
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 4, 2023 10:42:42 GMT 1
Greenhous, Salop Caravans, Tuffins but only if RW has no input at the FC, possibly a consortium of them all? I'm led to believe there's two issues: - 1) Asking price changing with the weather. - 2) The fact RW wants to stick around in some capacity. Prospective owners know how frustrating he is to work with, if they're buying the club they want him GONE. |
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Post by barrynic on Oct 4, 2023 10:54:40 GMT 1
We ALL want him gone...he has taken this club back to where it was when I started watching.
I am sure he does not want to be remembered for a relegation as his lasting memory.
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Post by shrewswolf on Oct 4, 2023 11:07:18 GMT 1
If we are to seriously believe, as one poster so adamantly does, that there is NOBODY who could take over from Roland.. aren’t we up s**t creek? Because Roland’s not going to be here forever, and someone will have to takeover then?
We are also told Roland has the clubs best interests at heart before also being told that if he sells, it’ll be to the next Steve Dale!
Decent propositions for solid and secure new ownership have been and gone, just as their sponsorships have…
Nobody, not a single person, has asked for Roland to sell to a wealthy benefactor dipping his hand into the game for the first time. And yet, instead of debate, that’s generally the jibe that comes back when you dare suggest Roland should sell up before it’s too late, irrespective of what’s happening on the pitch.
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Post by mattmw on Oct 4, 2023 11:12:35 GMT 1
The difficulty with valuing the club is that it’s not really like a normal business, as a lot of its value can never be taken out of the business. Or at least not easily
The latest accounts show assets of around £14.5 million, but a significant percentage of that is the ground and land it stands on, which is protected by a covenant restricting its use to sporting activity and associated administration of that activity
The only way to remove that value from the business would be removing the covenant, but that can only really be done if it’s proved there is no longer a need for that land to be used for that purpose - such as the club moving. But then a new ground would be needed paid for from the sale of the old site - as happened with the Gay Meadow
This is great in terms of protecting the asset but means the value is forever locked into the site
At the time of the ground move the club also shared documents as part of the planning application that suggested no director can take more money out of the business than they put in. I can’t see anything in the company records to suggest this has changed since, and is a great tool in protecting the club from asset stripper owners, but doesn’t offer new investors much chance to make a reasonable return from their investment
So the good thing is the club is protected pretty well from a fly by night owner coming in and asset stripping the place, but equally it means the current owner can’t take a big chunk of money out of the business when they sell, despite its account value being around £14.5 million
Any new owner is effectively buying the name of the club and assets (or liabilities) such as players which is a lot less than the £14.5 million accountancy value.
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salop81
Midland League Division Two
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Post by salop81 on Oct 4, 2023 11:14:32 GMT 1
We ALL want him gone...he has taken this club back to where it was when I started watching. I am sure he does not want to be remembered for a relegation as his lasting memory. Agree the sooner he goes the better..! The bloke is in his mid 80’s for gods sake, he’s taking us backwards and has been for 3 or 4 years now, he’s power crazy and falls out with any prospective buyers or investors so can imagine he is a very difficult chap to negotiate with..! His new structure (personal wise) is simply not going to work without proper investment into the playing side and he is not willing to do that, we have flirted with relegation every season (bar 2) since we have been in L1 and with MM pulling the strings and bringing in players nowhere near L1 level we are doomed this time around… |
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 4, 2023 11:16:27 GMT 1
If we are to seriously believe, as one poster so adamantly does, that there is NOBODY who could take over from Roland.. aren’t we up s**t creek? Because Roland’s not going to be here forever, and someone will have to takeover then? We are also told Roland has the clubs best interests at heart before also being told that if he sells, it’ll be to the next Steve Dale! Decent propositions for solid and secure new ownership have been and gone, just as their sponsorships have… Nobody, not a single person, has asked for Roland to sell to a wealthy benefactor dipping his hand into the game for the first time. And yet, instead of debate, that’s generally the jibe that comes back when you dare suggest Roland should sell up before it’s too late, irrespective of what’s happening on the pitch. I believe the club lost £200k last year, we don't know what it'll be for the next set of accounts but in reality it's the salary of one decent player at our level. We don't need a mad wealthy owner, we need a forward thinking one to develop the club and turn our relatively small losses into a break even sustainable scenario worst case. |
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Post by Minormorris64 on Oct 4, 2023 11:21:56 GMT 1
Why would anyone of sane mind want to purchase an entity that on an average year will lose £300,000 ?
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 4, 2023 11:27:46 GMT 1
Why would anyone of sane mind want to purchase an entity that on an average year will lose £300,000 ? Is there no chance of turning that reasonably small loss into a break-even scenario, or even a small profit? |
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Post by Pilch on Oct 4, 2023 11:32:46 GMT 1
We ALL want him gone...he has taken this club back to where it was when I started watching. I am sure he does not want to be remembered for a relegation as his lasting memory. Fake news |
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Post by davycrockett on Oct 4, 2023 11:37:55 GMT 1
The difficulty with valuing the club is that it’s not really like a normal business, as a lot of its value can never be taken out of the business. Or at least not easily The latest accounts show assets of around £14.5 million, but a significant percentage of that is the ground and land it stands on, which is protected by a covenant restricting its use to sporting activity and associated administration of that activity The only way to remove that value from the business would be removing the covenant, but that can only really be done if it’s proved there is no longer a need for that land to be used for that purpose - such as the club moving. But then a new ground would be needed paid for from the sale of the old site - as happened with the Gay Meadow This is great in terms of protecting the asset but means the value is forever locked into the site At the time of the ground move the club also shared documents as part of the planning application that suggested no director can take more money out of the business than they put in. I can’t see anything in the company records to suggest this has changed since, and is a great tool in protecting the club from asset stripper owners, but doesn’t offer new investors much chance to make a reasonable return from their investment So the good thing is the club is protected pretty well from a fly by night owner coming in and asset stripping the place, but equally it means the current owner can’t take a big chunk of money out of the business when they sell, despite its account value being around £14.5 million Any new owner is effectively buying the name of the club and assets (or liabilities) such as players which is a lot less than the £14.5 million accountancy value. I thought the covenant was on the land that Lidl stands on moved to the training / astro pitches ? |
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Post by mattmw on Oct 4, 2023 11:53:19 GMT 1
The difficulty with valuing the club is that it’s not really like a normal business, as a lot of its value can never be taken out of the business. Or at least not easily The latest accounts show assets of around £14.5 million, but a significant percentage of that is the ground and land it stands on, which is protected by a covenant restricting its use to sporting activity and associated administration of that activity The only way to remove that value from the business would be removing the covenant, but that can only really be done if it’s proved there is no longer a need for that land to be used for that purpose - such as the club moving. But then a new ground would be needed paid for from the sale of the old site - as happened with the Gay Meadow This is great in terms of protecting the asset but means the value is forever locked into the site At the time of the ground move the club also shared documents as part of the planning application that suggested no director can take more money out of the business than they put in. I can’t see anything in the company records to suggest this has changed since, and is a great tool in protecting the club from asset stripper owners, but doesn’t offer new investors much chance to make a reasonable return from their investment So the good thing is the club is protected pretty well from a fly by night owner coming in and asset stripping the place, but equally it means the current owner can’t take a big chunk of money out of the business when they sell, despite its account value being around £14.5 million Any new owner is effectively buying the name of the club and assets (or liabilities) such as players which is a lot less than the £14.5 million accountancy value. I thought the covenant was on the land that Lidl stands on moved to the training / astro pitches ? Only part of it was changed, to allow the Lidl development, the ground, power league land and new community pitch all still has a protective covernant on it. That’s my understanding anyway |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2023 11:54:24 GMT 1
The difficulty with valuing the club is that it’s not really like a normal business, as a lot of its value can never be taken out of the business. Or at least not easily The latest accounts show assets of around £14.5 million, but a significant percentage of that is the ground and land it stands on, which is protected by a covenant restricting its use to sporting activity and associated administration of that activity The only way to remove that value from the business would be removing the covenant, but that can only really be done if it’s proved there is no longer a need for that land to be used for that purpose - such as the club moving. But then a new ground would be needed paid for from the sale of the old site - as happened with the Gay Meadow This is great in terms of protecting the asset but means the value is forever locked into the site At the time of the ground move the club also shared documents as part of the planning application that suggested no director can take more money out of the business than they put in. I can’t see anything in the company records to suggest this has changed since, and is a great tool in protecting the club from asset stripper owners, but doesn’t offer new investors much chance to make a reasonable return from their investment So the good thing is the club is protected pretty well from a fly by night owner coming in and asset stripping the place, but equally it means the current owner can’t take a big chunk of money out of the business when they sell, despite its account value being around £14.5 million Any new owner is effectively buying the name of the club and assets (or liabilities) such as players which is a lot less than the £14.5 million accountancy value. Just digesting that information Matt. So how could the club be sold by the Chairman or the person who inherits off his estate once he has passed away? It's documented that Roland owns 75% of our shares,person of significant interest and annual return etc. I recall that there are one million shares valued at £2.50 each therefore a book value of £2.5 million.Rolands share are therefore valued at approx £1.85 million I'm pretty certain he would expect more than that for his share |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2023 11:55:38 GMT 1
Why would anyone of sane mind want to purchase an entity that on an average year will lose £300,000 ? It's a good question but there's clubs who are losing a lot more than that who have had no problem getting a new owner. Some are supporters who want their clubs to do well , some are businessman who want the challenge/gravitas of running a successful football club and then are those of course who get into it for the wrong reasons which is normally to make money (however that is made) Let's not forget Roland himself took over when we had lost a lot of money and were on the verge of bankruptcy. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2023 11:59:13 GMT 1
Why would anyone of sane mind want to purchase an entity that on an average year will lose £300,000 ? Is there no chance of turning that reasonably small loss into a break-even scenario, or even a small profit? Every chance,we are stuck in a time warp, we just need some forward planning and thinking and not utilising our facilities .I was hopeful that one of our two "boards" would take the project on |
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Post by davycrockett on Oct 4, 2023 12:09:57 GMT 1
I thought the covenant was on the land that Lidl stands on moved to the training / astro pitches ? Only part of it was changed, to allow the Lidl development, the ground, power league land and new community pitch all still has a protective covernant on it. That’s my understanding anyway Sorry to quiz you but what about the land opposite Lidl’s ( to the left as you drive in) which was separated at the time of the sale to Lidl ‘on legal advice’ ? |
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Post by davycrockett on Oct 4, 2023 12:17:35 GMT 1
Why would anyone of sane mind want to purchase an entity that on an average year will lose £300,000 ? It's a good question but there's clubs who are losing a lot more than that who have had no problem getting a new owner. Some are supporters who want their clubs to do well , some are businessman who want the challenge/gravitas of running a successful football club and then are those of course who get into it for the wrong reasons which is normally to make money (however that is made) Let's not forget Roland himself took over when we had lost a lot of money and were on the verge of bankruptcy. But he didn’t buy it based on the value of the ground or other assets or shares, more by injecting enough to pay the club debts and keep the club afloat, rumoured at the time to to around £200K and I’ve never heard this figure challenged. I’ve harped on about supporters groups lately because it’s important to have a strong United fan base, like Wrexham and Exeter did when needed. Doubt we’d raise £100k overnight. Should we resurrect The Supporters Trust? Colin ? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2023 12:22:49 GMT 1
Only part of it was changed, to allow the Lidl development, the ground, power league land and new community pitch all still has a protective covernant on it. That’s my understanding anyway Sorry to quiz you but what about the land opposite Lidl’s ( to the left as you drive in) which was separated at the time of the sale to Lidl ‘on legal advice’ ? Are you possibly thinking about the small piece of land that went from the entrance road onto the Lidl site? If so this land was transferred from the club to a company called STFC 2007.It was done to protect the club In the event that a pedestrian was crossing the "road" and was hit by a construction vehicle the pedestrian would only be able to sue the land owner STFC2007, with assets of a couple of quid,rather than the club or Lidl |
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Post by mattmw on Oct 4, 2023 12:26:55 GMT 1
The difficulty with valuing the club is that it’s not really like a normal business, as a lot of its value can never be taken out of the business. Or at least not easily The latest accounts show assets of around £14.5 million, but a significant percentage of that is the ground and land it stands on, which is protected by a covenant restricting its use to sporting activity and associated administration of that activity The only way to remove that value from the business would be removing the covenant, but that can only really be done if it’s proved there is no longer a need for that land to be used for that purpose - such as the club moving. But then a new ground would be needed paid for from the sale of the old site - as happened with the Gay Meadow This is great in terms of protecting the asset but means the value is forever locked into the site At the time of the ground move the club also shared documents as part of the planning application that suggested no director can take more money out of the business than they put in. I can’t see anything in the company records to suggest this has changed since, and is a great tool in protecting the club from asset stripper owners, but doesn’t offer new investors much chance to make a reasonable return from their investment So the good thing is the club is protected pretty well from a fly by night owner coming in and asset stripping the place, but equally it means the current owner can’t take a big chunk of money out of the business when they sell, despite its account value being around £14.5 million Any new owner is effectively buying the name of the club and assets (or liabilities) such as players which is a lot less than the £14.5 million accountancy value. Just digesting that information Matt. So how could the club be sold by the Chairman or the person who inherits off his estate once he has passed away? It's documented that Roland owns 75% of our shares,person of significant interest and annual return etc. I recall that there are one million shares valued at £2.50 each therefore a book value of £2.5 million.Rolands share are therefore valued at approx £1.85 million I'm pretty certain he would expect more than that for his share I used to have a big folder of information about the planning application and ground move, which included the detail about the club constitution and how much directors could take out of the club, but annoyingly threw it out about 12 months ago. At the time people against the club move suggested that selling the old Gay Meadow site and removing the covenant was a way for the directors to make a lot of money personally, and the club submitted documents outlining the checks that were in place to stop that happening. I did look at the Companies house information recently but can't see reference to this in the club documents, so it might have changed, but if not its certainly a big consideration in both the price being asked for the 75% stake in the club. In a "normal" stock market business like a manufactoring company an investor might consider buying the shares at £2.5 million, and assess that with sound investment and production improvements they could increase the productivity and value of the company and sell the shares on at a later data for a profit. But that doesn't really work for lower league football clubs. With the potential additioanl checks at STFC it probably makes the field of potential buyers pretty limited, and probably restricted to those with a affection for the club and wider reasons to invest that just financial. Or potentially a community ownership model if sufficient funds could be raised that met the owners valuation. Ultimately is the owner doesn't want to sell they don't have to But the situation of what happens if the Chairman should pass away whilst still the majority shareholder is an unknown too. I'm not sure any one knows who the ownership of the 75% of shares transfers to. Its not a nice thing to talk about but from a business continuity point of view should be something there is a plan for regardless of age - as we saw with Leicester and some time ago with Chelsea even young owners can suddently pass away and a back up plan for what happens in that eventuallity is an important part of business planning |
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Post by mattmw on Oct 4, 2023 12:29:28 GMT 1
Sorry to quiz you but what about the land opposite Lidl’s ( to the left as you drive in) which was separated at the time of the sale to Lidl ‘on legal advice’ ? Are you possibly thinking about the small piece of land that went from the entrance road onto the Lidl site? If so this land was transferred from the club to a company called STFC 2007.It was done to protect the club In the event that a pedestrian was crossing the "road" and was hit by a construction vehicle the pedestrian would only be able to sue the land owner STFC2007, with assets of a couple of quid,rather than the club or Lidl That rings a bell with me too, as its also now the access route into the new business park being developed, so assume clear access rights over the land, and appropriate liabilities have been agreed between all those involved |
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Post by barrynic on Oct 4, 2023 12:38:59 GMT 1
We ALL want him gone...he has taken this club back to where it was when I started watching. I am sure he does not want to be remembered for a relegation as his lasting memory. Fake news Pilch I have come to the conclusion you are a Russian bot. |
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Post by Pilch on Oct 4, 2023 12:40:30 GMT 1
Pilch I have come to the conclusion you are a Russian bot. We ALL want Russian bots |
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Post by Minormorris64 on Oct 4, 2023 13:01:53 GMT 1
Why would anyone of sane mind want to purchase an entity that on an average year will lose £300,000 ? Is there no chance of turning that reasonably small loss into a break-even scenario, or even a small profit? £6000 a week every week , they haven't managed to in most years when you take out transfer fees, so what would you propose ? One hell of a lot of Sunday lunches. |
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Post by martinshrew on Oct 4, 2023 13:16:00 GMT 1
Is there no chance of turning that reasonably small loss into a break-even scenario, or even a small profit? £6000 a week every week , they haven't managed to in most years when you take out transfer fees, so what would you propose ? One hell of a lot of Sunday lunches. I don't think one single thing will help, I think it's a combination of things. Once fans are engaged, if you can keep them engaged that's key. When I went regular, I inevitably got food, a pint or two. If the powerleague could pour a pint and had the 12:30 game on that would be another couple easy. Match ticket + 5 pints & a food item, has to be north of £50 these days? I'm likely to have kids in the not too distant future, if I'm engaged and I then take my kids, they're going to want a shirt, a hoodie, a drink, food, season tickets, away games etc? Kids party at the powerleague? Then it stems out to the restaurant, if the offering was good I'd maybe think of father's day, try and get Dad back into it. Small steps but when 100s of us make small steps it contributes to a big step. |
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Post by Northwest Shrew on Oct 4, 2023 13:21:24 GMT 1
Is there no chance of turning that reasonably small loss into a break-even scenario, or even a small profit? £6000 a week every week , they haven't managed to in most years when you take out transfer fees, so what would you propose ? One hell of a lot of Sunday lunches. Yes… Well not just Sunday lunches, but in my opinion there are still loads of ways of bringing money we haven’t looked into. we were told by Caldwell we were maximising our income, we then brought in Jamie Edwards to further maximise our income. And as far as I can see, we’ve not really added any revenue streams. Maybe a new club shop, has this increased income? One for the supporters parliament… oh that doesn’t exist anymore.. |
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Oct 4, 2023 13:23:29 GMT 1
An established League one club only losing 200-300k a year with no immediate rivals in the vicinity is pretty valuable I'd say. Own the stadium outright, own the training ground, no debt (that we're aware of.)
Assuming the clubs value is at 14 million and Roland owns 75% of shares, so 10 and a half mill.
Could try and stem the 200-300k losses by maximising revenue around the ground which I think we can agree they aren't doing.
Then any investment to potentially get in the championship where TV revenue alone is in the tens of millions.
I can see why some millionaires could be persuaded...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2023 13:41:49 GMT 1
£6000 a week every week , they haven't managed to in most years when you take out transfer fees, so what would you propose ? One hell of a lot of Sunday lunches. I don't think one single thing will help, I think it's a combination of things. There's various things that could be done but the culture of the club is so backwards at times. I'll give you a couple of examples. The first, recently there was a photo of a Planet Doughnut doughnut at Tottenham's ground on a 'Footy Scran' Twitter page, a few people were commenting saying as they were a local company maybe they could sell at our ground. I pointed that for the previous 3 seasons they had been media sponsor for us and didn't sell them then so it's unlikely now. Planet Doughnut actually replied to my post saying they were always asking but were not allowed to. It's good enough for Spurs in their new ground but not us. The second is earlier this year I was raising money for charity (when I did London Marathon) and held a pub quiz. I had a quizmaster who is a fellow Shrewsbury fan and we thought holding it at Smithy's and to coincide it with a home match, the idea being hold it around 6.30 so you'd get fans going straight there after the game and then more people turning up afterwards. I approached the club, they asked them how many people would be coming and I said it was difficult to say so perhaps 30+ people. They said they'd need a minimum of 60 people to open up, when I said I couldn't guarantee numbers, they said to advertise it and once I got that number then they could take the booking. Not surprisingly I wasn't keen to advertise something without a guaranteed location so I looked elsewhere. Rob at the Bagley was kind enough to host us, we had about 70 people turn up, made lots of money for charity as well as putting plenty of money behind the bar. Of course Smithy's stood empty and continues to do so, apart from every other Saturday during the season. I know that a few doughnuts and a pub quiz arent going to be the answer to our financial problems but I wonder how many other things like this there are that the club are missing out on. |
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Post by davycrockett on Oct 4, 2023 14:23:26 GMT 1
Sorry to quiz you but what about the land opposite Lidl’s ( to the left as you drive in) which was separated at the time of the sale to Lidl ‘on legal advice’ ? Are you possibly thinking about the small piece of land that went from the entrance road onto the Lidl site? If so this land was transferred from the club to a company called STFC 2007.It was done to protect the club In the event that a pedestrian was crossing the "road" and was hit by a construction vehicle the pedestrian would only be able to sue the land owner STFC2007, with assets of a couple of quid,rather than the club or Lidl That’s the one. Thanks for jogging my memory. The reason for asking is as it’s separated from the club (on legal advice) could Roland now sell it and pocket the money or is it protected for ‘club’ benefit? He’s now the sole director since James Hughes resigned and interestingly Brian Caldwells still the Secretary, oh and t(e accounts are overdue. BTW it’s not that small could easily build a pub or similar on it. |
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Post by davycrockett on Oct 4, 2023 14:31:08 GMT 1
Is there no chance of turning that reasonably small loss into a break-even scenario, or even a small profit? £6000 a week every week , they haven't managed to in most years when you take out transfer fees, so what would you propose ? One hell of a lot of Sunday lunches. Don’t take out transfer fees then. The business models to supplement income from the sale of players, we just had a bit of a lean time but with Lehey and the young lad to Newcastle that should look better this year. |
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Post by mattmw on Oct 4, 2023 16:14:30 GMT 1
In terms of increasing the revenue the club makes there could be a number of approaches.
Perhaps the easiest one is looking at match day and working out how best to fill the approximately 8,000 seats we have available. Broadly speaking the cost of each match day set at a fixed cost to the club, in terms of staff they employ, policing costs etc, so the club should have an idea of the "break even" attendance they need each match. Any they seat on top of that is effectively cost free to them, as they don't have additional costs to make so effectively every seat above the break even figure is a profit of £15 or so (assuming kids, OAP's etc pay less than adults)
So promotional offers or extra match day activities to boost attendances is probably the most cost effective approach - which is why fan and new customer engagement is so important.
The other approach is to run none footballing activities at the ground which can make a profit. I have slightly more sypmathy with the club on this as hospitality, meals, bars, conferences etc do require a fair bit of outlay, and the profits aren't great, and is also quite a competative market. I think I'd be looking at a model where the club rents out space to outside organinastons at a relatively low fee - but then the ooutside body is responsible for the event and its running. The club would make less money per event, but would hopefully get a range of regular bookings and relatively little upfront cost to them. Plus by getting none football fans into and around the staduim it might help awareness of the club and its facilities with a wider range of people
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