|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 18, 2023 13:53:31 GMT 1
Not wishing to steal anyone‘s thunder (nor that of any brocialist brogressives we may have on the board) I was waiting on a thread raving against the Tories (as I know we like a bit of that on here) for blocking the Scottish parliament’s new gender reforms. I’m pretty sure it’s even made its way on to the pages on the Guardian (despite what we have heard from Hadley Freeman since leaving the paper). Two days in though and... Anyhow, I guess the first thing to say is that this looks to have a fair way to go and things will no doubt be decided by lawyers and the courts rather than any parliament and politicians (unless the SNP and Greens do start to listen to the concerns that have been voiced more than once leading up to the introduction of this bill). But even so, what a two days. Particular highlights for me is just how ideological captured (and utter loons) those are who are passing such amendments… This is a Green MSP stating that we shouldn't accept that there are no examples of human beings changing their biological sex. This is flat earth stuff. And the sight of male Labour and SNP ministers shouting down female MP’s for expressing their concerns about the reforms and their possible impact on female sex based rights and female only spaces… And a special mention to that c#*t (apologies, I don’t tend to use this language when it comes to politicians or anyone otherwise but I do think when it comes to this chap it’s warranted) Lloyd Russell-Moyle displaying the male rage and aggression that no doubt many women are keen to see excluded from female only spaces… Do think it’s also worth mentioning that the government is not railing against democracy nor devolution as some seem to be suggesting when looking to use Section 35 of the Scotland act. You’re not going against any act when you implement a mechanism contained within that act. It is why such mechanisms are included in the act in the first place. And it would seem that after taking legal advice the government does have concerns that these reforms will impact the lives of those beyond the borders of Scotland. As o many women and women's groups. If that is indeed the case, we wait and see. Anyhow, for anyone interested here is the government’s response and the reason Section 35 has been used… Statement of reasons related to the use of section 35 of the Scotland Act 1998
Other than that it looks as though this one that is set to run for a good while yet.. |
|
|
|
Post by wookeywombat on Jan 18, 2023 16:26:33 GMT 1
Interesting to note that 3 Scottish Conservative SMPs voted for it.
|
|
|
|
Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 18, 2023 23:01:37 GMT 1
You couldn't wait for a thread to pop up so you could tell us all how wrong we were but then when no one made one you then created one yourself (complete with 4 chan ironic text in the title) so you can tell us all how wrong we hypothetically are, even though no one's particularly interested or even expressed an opinion?
Weird.
|
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 19, 2023 8:05:04 GMT 1
 Anyhow; who we is supposed to be and wrong about what, Lord knows. If folk have no particular interest then no need to comment, just move along. Weird.
|
|
|
|
Post by block12massive on Jan 19, 2023 10:24:18 GMT 1
You couldn't wait for a thread to pop up so you could tell us all how wrong we were but then when no one made one you then created one yourself (complete with 4 chan ironic text in the title) so you can tell us all how wrong we hypothetically are, even though no one's particularly interested or even expressed an opinion? Weird. A story that has pretty much dominated the news for the last three days but because you allege you're not interested in it, you deem it 'weird' for someone else to start a thread on it  Don't worry though, I'm sure Northwestman will be along any moment to start a thread about an obscure Tory party member claiming a box of biros on expenses or something tedious you'll no doubt sink your teeth into. |
|
|
|
Post by sheltonsalopian on Jan 19, 2023 10:26:01 GMT 1
Anyhow; who we is supposed to be and wrong about what, Lord knows. If folk have no particular interest then no need to comment, just move along. Weird. Could have been an interesting discussion but your opening paragraph was pretty weird, which is unlike you as you're usually the voice of reason. From what I gather there were valid constitutional reasons why this bill was blocked despite the SNP going bezerk about sovereignty. I will say most people my age care very little about this type of stuff, people can do what they want with their bodies etc etc |
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 19, 2023 11:31:24 GMT 1
Anyhow; who we is supposed to be and wrong about what, Lord knows. If folk have no particular interest then no need to comment, just move along. Weird. Could have been an interesting discussion but your opening paragraph was pretty weird, which is unlike you as you're usually the voice of reason. From what I gather there were valid constitutional reasons why this bill was blocked despite the SNP going bezerk about sovereignty. I will say most people my age care very little about this type of stuff, people can do what they want with their bodies etc etc No more weird than other stuff we see directed at others but each to their own I guess. Appreciate the compliment though (I hope it was meant as such anyhow). As for the constitutional reasons and whether they are valid, I guess that will all come out in the wash once it reaches the courts. I think it'll be something the lawyers will have to untangle. But I agree regarding the SNP. I think their anger is born out of the frustration that they are not yet an independent country but rather still a part of the UK (and so need to act as such). Which of course is par of the course for the SNP. From what was reported, they were given warning that these reforms would have an impact beyond the borders of Scotland (which is therefore out of their remit). Although that said, both the UK government and the Scottish parliament appear confident that any appeal will go their way. So who knows, its a wait and see. As for you comment regarding what people can do with their bodies; I think I know what you are getting at and if so, I would say that is true to an extent. But there should be safeguarding in place and people need to fully understand the repercussions of the decisions they make, especially when it comes to children which I think is where the main concern lies. You only need look to the discussion around puberty blockers, for example. You only need to listen to the experience of those who have detransitioned, for example. Other than that of course, people should be able to do what they want with their bodies. But even so, I do think this is a slightly different discussion to the reforms that the SNP wish to introduce (as far as I am aware they do not touch on that). |
|
|
|
Post by block12massive on Jan 19, 2023 11:40:23 GMT 1
No 15 year old has the capacity to decide to transition to the opposite sex.
I'd question the morals of any adult that thinks it is fair and reasonable to allow minors to make a decision of that magnitude.
|
|
|
|
Post by sheltonsalopian on Jan 19, 2023 12:17:28 GMT 1
Could have been an interesting discussion but your opening paragraph was pretty weird, which is unlike you as you're usually the voice of reason. From what I gather there were valid constitutional reasons why this bill was blocked despite the SNP going bezerk about sovereignty. I will say most people my age care very little about this type of stuff, people can do what they want with their bodies etc etc No more weird than other stuff we see directed at others but each to their own I guess. Appreciate the compliment though (I hope it was meant as such anyhow). As for the constitutional reasons and whether they are valid, I guess that will all come out in the wash once it reaches the courts. I think it'll be something the lawyers will have to untangle. But I agree regarding the SNP. I think their anger is born out of the frustration that they are not yet an independent country but rather still a part of the UK (and so need to act as such). Which of course is par of the course for the SNP. From what was reported, they were given warning that these reforms would have an impact beyond the borders of Scotland (which is therefore out of their remit). Although that said, both the UK government and the Scottish parliament appear confident that any appeal will go their way. So who knows, its a wait and see. As for you comment regarding what people can do with their bodies; I think I know what you are getting at and if so, I would say that is true to an extent. But there should be safeguarding in place and people need to fully understand the repercussions of the decisions they make, especially when it comes to children which I think is where the main concern lies. You only need look to the discussion around puberty blockers, for example. You only need to listen to the experience of those who have detransitioned, for example. Other than that of course, people should be able to do what they want with their bodies. But even so, I do think this is a slightly different discussion to the reforms that the SNP wish to introduce (as far as I am aware they do not touch on that). It was a compliment, no sarcasm intended! You tend to be one of the posters who try to steer away from the usual name calling and low hanging fruit which is why the opening paragraph surprised me that's all! Yeah I get what you're saying, personally think there are far more important things to be worrying about right now but on the flip side the bill is trying to give people the freedom to choose what they do with their body, changing the age required from 18 to 16, when you look at how old you need to be to join the army as a solider (16) just seems reasonable enough. |
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 19, 2023 13:00:05 GMT 1
No more weird than other stuff we see directed at others but each to their own I guess. Appreciate the compliment though (I hope it was meant as such anyhow). As for the constitutional reasons and whether they are valid, I guess that will all come out in the wash once it reaches the courts. I think it'll be something the lawyers will have to untangle. But I agree regarding the SNP. I think their anger is born out of the frustration that they are not yet an independent country but rather still a part of the UK (and so need to act as such). Which of course is par of the course for the SNP. From what was reported, they were given warning that these reforms would have an impact beyond the borders of Scotland (which is therefore out of their remit). Although that said, both the UK government and the Scottish parliament appear confident that any appeal will go their way. So who knows, its a wait and see. As for you comment regarding what people can do with their bodies; I think I know what you are getting at and if so, I would say that is true to an extent. But there should be safeguarding in place and people need to fully understand the repercussions of the decisions they make, especially when it comes to children which I think is where the main concern lies. You only need look to the discussion around puberty blockers, for example. You only need to listen to the experience of those who have detransitioned, for example. Other than that of course, people should be able to do what they want with their bodies. But even so, I do think this is a slightly different discussion to the reforms that the SNP wish to introduce (as far as I am aware they do not touch on that). It was a compliment, no sarcasm intended! You tend to be one of the posters who try to steer away from the usual name calling and low hanging fruit which is why the opening paragraph surprised me that's all! Yeah I get what you're saying, personally think there are far more important things to be worrying about right now but on the flip side the bill is trying to give people the freedom to choose what they do with their body, changing the age required from 18 to 16, when you look at how old you need to be to join the army as a solider (16) just seems reasonable enough. Of course and I accept that. Each to their own. I'm sure that is the case for many but then saying that, there are clearly many who do have concerns and hence why the UK is in the situation that it is with these reforms. And I don't think these reforms have anything to do with the freedom to do what you like with your body. And as far as I am aware these reforms have nothing to do with whether you have physically transitioned in some way or another in order to gain a GRC (nor does it impact on access to do so). You can do so without any medical intervention. Indeed, these reforms are there to make it easier and quicker to do so (which is also seen as a concern as to who may take advantage of that). And whilst it may be reasonable on a personal level, you then have to consider the implications for others. As we are a football message board lets look at sports as an example, many women do not wish to see biological males competing in female sports because they are deemed to have an unfair advantage. So then that is something that then needs to be considered and addressed. |
|
kp
Midland League Division One
Posts: 495
|
Post by kp on Jan 19, 2023 13:04:01 GMT 1
Not wishing to steal anyone‘s thunder (nor that of any brocialist brogressives we may have on the board) I was waiting on a thread raving against the Tories (as I know we like a bit of that on here) for blocking the Scottish parliament’s new gender reforms. I’m pretty sure it’s even made its way on to the pages on the Guardian (despite what we have heard from Hadley Freeman since leaving the paper). Two days in though and... Anyhow, I guess the first thing to say is that this looks to have a fair way to go and things will no doubt be decided by lawyers and the courts rather than any parliament and politicians (unless the SNP and Greens do start to listen to the concerns that have been voiced more than once leading up to the introduction of this bill). But even so, what a two days. Particular highlights for me is just how ideological captured (and utter loons) those are who are passing such amendments… This is a Green MSP stating that we shouldn't accept that there are no examples of human beings changing their biological sex. This is flat earth stuff. And the sight of male Labour and SNP ministers shouting down female MP’s for expressing their concerns about the reforms and their possible impact on female sex based rights and female only spaces… And a special mention to that c#*t (apologies, I don’t tend to use this language when it comes to politicians or anyone otherwise but I do think when it comes to this chap it’s warranted) Lloyd Russell-Moyle displaying the male rage and aggression that no doubt many women are keen to see excluded from female only spaces… Do think it’s also worth mentioning that the government is not railing against democracy nor devolution as some seem to be suggesting when looking to use Section 35 of the Scotland act. You’re not going against any act when you implement a mechanism contained within that act. It is why such mechanisms are included in the act in the first place. And it would seem that after taking legal advice the government does have concerns that these reforms will impact the lives of those beyond the borders of Scotland. As o many women and women's groups. If that is indeed the case, we wait and see. Anyhow, for anyone interested here is the government’s response and the reason Section 35 has been used… Statement of reasons related to the use of section 35 of the Scotland Act 1998
Other than that it looks as though this one that is set to run for a good while yet.. Here in Wales we have a first minister called Drakeford. He is fully behind these vetoed changes and has gone as far as to suggest this outrage will lead to devolution... |
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 19, 2023 13:52:16 GMT 1
Maybe. It certainly doesn't surprise me to hear that from Drakeford and perhaps he is right, time will tell. However, one thing to consider is that these reforms, from what polling suggests anyhow, are not supported by the majority in Scotland (in Wales I am unsure). So whilst you may many calling this an affront against Scottish devolution and their ability to govern you also have many, perhaps more, pleased that Westminster stepped in.
There are claims and counter claims as to whether these reforms are being used as a wedge by pro-independence parties to push for Scottish independence, I'd like to think that is not the case. But even so, for anyone who is maybe looking to do so they should probably do so with reforms that are overwhelmingly popular with the people of Scotland (and that doesn't appear the case here).
I think you could question whether this is a good advert for independence or not. I think the people of Scotland could make the case either way.
|
|
|
|
Post by zenfootball2 on Jan 19, 2023 14:44:31 GMT 1
i could not find the article i wanted but the two cover the point i wanted to make ; Because the prefrontal cortex is still developing, teenagers might rely on a part of the brain called the amygdala to make decisions and solve problems more than adults do. The amygdala is associated with emotions, impulses, aggression and instinctive behaviour. As you get older dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (dlPFC) grows this part of the brain helps with you planning future events and life choices so you the SNP are asking a teenager to make a life changing choice when there brains will reason this in a more emotional way than 24 year old as (diPFC) will be more devloped and they will be more able to evaluate the benefits and possible costs of going through this procedure. raisingchildren.net.au/pre-teens/development/understanding-your-pre-teen/brain-development-teenskids.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/frym.2016.00008 |
|
|
|
Post by zenfootball2 on Jan 19, 2023 15:38:57 GMT 1
|
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 19, 2023 16:19:43 GMT 1
so you the SNP are asking a teenager to make a life changing choice when there brains will reason this in a more emotional way than 24 year old as (diPFC) will be more devloped and they will be more able to evaluate the benefits and possible costs of going through this procedure. Just to say though, as I understand it these reforms make it easier and quicker to change your legal gender and in addition, make it open to those aged 16 to 18. It makes no changes to access to say medication, for example. |
|
|
|
Post by belfastshrew on Jan 20, 2023 21:23:49 GMT 1
No 15 year old has the capacity to decide to transition to the opposite sex. I'd question the morals of any adult that thinks it is fair and reasonable to allow minors to make a decision of that magnitude. Mic-drop. Case closed! |
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 20, 2023 22:45:57 GMT 1
Not sure about your swimming baths, but the one in Rugeley has a unisex changing room, you just go into separate cubicles to get your keks off. The sexes mix in the other areas and at the showers. I am also reliably informed that the intimate part of visiting the ladies toilet is done in separate cubicles. In any place, including these, everyone has to obey the law. So what exactly is a women's safe space, apart from a prison, and whose trying to stop them having it?
|
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 21, 2023 13:36:48 GMT 1
No 15 year old has the capacity to decide to transition to the opposite sex. I'd question the morals of any adult that thinks it is fair and reasonable to allow minors to make a decision of that magnitude. And then you have this sort of thing going on... Now Nicola Sturgeon's SNP plans to ask SEVEN-year-olds if they are 'male, female, non-binary, transgender or other' in school survey branded 'disgraceful' and 'indoctrination'
Granted it looks as though kids can opt out but we're talking about young children here (who may not understand what is going on here nor have the confidence to opt out) and you may not have parents aware that such questions are being asked of their children (so they can ask that their kids don't take part). So they're being ask this sort of thing... ...and then you look to the wording. I mean I don't "identity" as anything, I'm male. But no such option to express that here and the question has to be answered which means to do so is bending to this ideology. I don't think folk are too far off when they talk of indoctrination. |
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 21, 2023 13:58:07 GMT 1
No 15 year old has the capacity to decide to transition to the opposite sex. I'd question the morals of any adult that thinks it is fair and reasonable to allow minors to make a decision of that magnitude. And then you have this sort of thing going on... Now Nicola Sturgeon's SNP plans to ask SEVEN-year-olds if they are 'male, female, non-binary, transgender or other' in school survey branded 'disgraceful' and 'indoctrination'
Granted it looks as though kids can opt out but we're talking about young children here (who may not understand what is going on here nor have the confidence to opt out) and you may not have parents aware that such questions are being asked of their children (so they can ask that their kids don't take part). So they're being ask this sort of thing... ...and then you look to the wording. I mean I don't "identity" as anything, I'm male. But no such option to express that here and the question has to be answered which means to do so is bending to this ideology. I don't think folk are too far off when they talk of indoctrination. They could just ask " does wearing a kilt make you more of a man or a woman?"  |
|
kp
Midland League Division One
Posts: 495
|
Post by kp on Jan 23, 2023 16:57:13 GMT 1
Not sure about your swimming baths, but the one in Rugeley has a unisex changing room, you just go into separate cubicles to get your keks off. The sexes mix in the other areas and at the showers. I am also reliably informed that the intimate part of visiting the ladies toilet is done in separate cubicles. In any place, including these, everyone has to obey the law. So what exactly is a women's safe space, apart from a prison, and whose trying to stop them having it? I think you will find that prisons designated female are getting plenty of self identifying 'female' inmates. Some of these self identifying 'females' have committed sexual assaults in order to be incarcerated. Some of these self identifying 'females' have used their penises to rape actual females whilst in prison. These rapes are going down as sexual assaults by one female on another. |
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Jan 23, 2023 17:39:02 GMT 1
Not sure about your swimming baths, but the one in Rugeley has a unisex changing room, you just go into separate cubicles to get your keks off. The sexes mix in the other areas and at the showers. I am also reliably informed that the intimate part of visiting the ladies toilet is done in separate cubicles. In any place, including these, everyone has to obey the law. So what exactly is a women's safe space, apart from a prison, and whose trying to stop them having it? I think you will find that prisons designated female are getting plenty of self identifying 'female' inmates. Some of these self identifying 'females' have committed sexual assaults in order to be incarcerated. Some of these self identifying 'females' have used their penises to rape actual females whilst in prison. These rapes are going down as sexual assaults by one female on another. That is why I said "apart from prisons."
|
|
kp
Midland League Division One
Posts: 495
|
Post by kp on Jan 24, 2023 15:52:23 GMT 1
I think you will find that prisons designated female are getting plenty of self identifying 'female' inmates. Some of these self identifying 'females' have committed sexual assaults in order to be incarcerated. Some of these self identifying 'females' have used their penises to rape actual females whilst in prison. These rapes are going down as sexual assaults by one female on another. That is why I said "apart from prisons."
Not a very safe space then? |
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 24, 2023 16:10:53 GMT 1
Good to see... And then you have Russell-Moyle tweeting that he just so happened to sit there when returning to the lobby (despite there being plenty of room elsewhere and on the opposition benches). Who is he trying to kid. But with that, not only is he a t**t he's a lying t**t at that. Who'd have thought...  |
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Feb 10, 2023 9:04:40 GMT 1
...and so to Wales... Why is Wales copying Scotland's gender self-ID blunder?Why indeed. But then it does seem to be the case that... Events in Wales and Scotland are a painful example of a politics mired in prejudice, incapable of critical thinking and contemptuous of dissent.Once again we're seeing that and the ideological capture of politicians, Hannah Blythyn is clearly drunk on the Kool-Aid (along with a good few more no doubt). The response to what I consider too be perfectly reasonable questions and concerns (raised as they were in Scotland too) is really telling in this exchange. As with Russell-Moyle, we're once again seeing the vile response towards those who have genuine and reasonable concerns about the changes that certain political parties seem determined to push through against what seems to be the wishes of the majority (and I suspect more so amongst women who will be most impacted by these changes). So as with Scotland, it will be interesting to see where this ends up. tHerE iS No cUltUre wAr  |
|
|
|
Post by wookeywombat on Feb 10, 2023 9:38:55 GMT 1
The bill in Scotland, I re-iterate, had cross party support.
|
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Feb 10, 2023 10:11:24 GMT 1
People will of course draw their own conclusions of course but I think one look at the details of the bill... Gender Recognition Reform (Scotland) Bill...will tell you all you need to know; as in who is the driving force behind this in Scotland. And it looks pretty clear in Wales too. |
|
|
|
Post by block12massive on Feb 10, 2023 10:22:21 GMT 1
The Union could not have hoped for a more incompetent couple of tinpot dictators than Sturgeon and Drakeford to destroy the argument for further devolution.
|
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Feb 10, 2023 10:33:14 GMT 1
The Union could not have hoped for a more incompetent couple of tinpot dictators than Sturgeon and Drakeford to destroy the argument for further devolution. That would certainly seem to be the case in Scotland, based on the initial reaction to all this (looking to the polls, for example). Alex Salmond certainly didn't mince his words anyhow... |
|
|
|
Post by block12massive on Feb 10, 2023 10:38:12 GMT 1
The Union could not have hoped for a more incompetent couple of tinpot dictators than Sturgeon and Drakeford to destroy the argument for further devolution. That would certainly seem to be the case in Scotland, based on the initial reaction to all this (looking to the polls, for example). Alex Salmond certainly didn't mince his words anyhow... I honestly don't get the motivation behind it. Are they just creating controversial minority rights laws that they know are going to be veto'd by the UK government just so they can claim they're powerless victims of an oppressive government and further the independence argument or is there something more sinister at hand? It honestly feels like we're living in an alternative reality right now. |
|
|
|
Post by wookeywombat on Feb 10, 2023 10:57:53 GMT 1
That would certainly seem to be the case in Scotland, based on the initial reaction to all this (looking to the polls, for example). Alex Salmond certainly didn't mince his words anyhow... I honestly don't get the motivation behind it. Are they just creating controversial minority rights laws that they know are going to be veto'd by the UK government just so they can claim they're powerless victims of an oppressive government and further the independence argument or is there something more sinister at hand? It honestly feels like we're living in an alternative reality right now. "It honestly feels like we're living in an alternative reality right now" I couldn't agree more but that is true doubly so concerning the shenanigans in the Westminster government over the last 2 years |
|
