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Post by cabanas2017 on Aug 12, 2022 7:40:48 GMT 1
Electric cars are becoming more popular and their are serious environmental questions long term regarding future disposal and recycling of the batteries. Then there are humanitarian issues with young children mining the minerals with no protection , 60% comes from South America….. “You need tens of kilograms more copper for an electric car compared with one with a petrol engine,” said Herrington. “That means, if you want to turn all the UK’s 31m cars into electric vehicles you would require about 12% of the world’s entire copper output – just for Britain. That is an unrealistic demand, given that we are hoping to be making electric cars only within a decade.” www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/03/child-labour-toxic-leaks-the-price-we-could-pay-for-a-greener-future
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Post by frankwellshrews on Aug 12, 2022 8:05:58 GMT 1
Could say the same about mobile phones or "fast fashion" from Primark and the like. A lot of stuff we buy in the West is the product of exploitative practices of one kind or another and it's largely driven by our demand for cheaper prices. To pay the cost of things that factor in a fair wage for producer countries often makes products uncompetitive and the lack of exploitative practices itself hasn't proved much of a selling point (for example, how many of these do you see round and about? shop.fairphone.com/en/)I say this typing on a Samsung phone that was probably made at Fox Conn en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides . Reality is it's very hard to avoid at least occasional hypocrisy in this world and people often have to weigh up personal need and other benefits (e.g. environmental) when making these decisions. Regarding the environmental issues around the batteries, i don't know the answer to that. I remember reading a while back about how tesla's charging facility in California apparently runs on diesel though, which struck me as spectacularly self defeating.
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Post by armchairfan on Aug 12, 2022 8:36:27 GMT 1
It is not deniable that "hypocrisy" exists at many levels and in an almost infinite number of issues, some of which you rightly highlight, but your message seems to be predicated on the ridiculous notion that all our "problems" can be addressed and eventually solved to everyone's satisfaction, which is arrant nonsense: Life itself is a matter of balance between infinite "tradeoffs" and as such will inevitably produce a certain "hypocrisy" across the board; except that I wouldn't characterise this as hypocrisy, at all - merely a general recognition that all human activity has both negative and positive aspects; in terms of our politics for example, I benefit from those aspects of socialism which we have democratically decided to incorporate into our essentially capitalist society - the NHS, state pensions for example - and even hard-core socialists benefit from the free exchange and distribution between willing parties, of goods and services; of course its imperfect - as, indeed would be any human-conceived system of organising society ...it is what it is, and attempts to achieve perfection, however defined, are guaranteed to end in failure, and possibly, conflict....
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Post by frankwellshrews on Aug 12, 2022 9:14:34 GMT 1
It is not deniable that "hypocrisy" exists at many levels and in an almost infinite number of issues, some of which you rightly highlight, but your message seems to be predicated on the ridiculous notion that all our "problems" can be addressed and eventually solved to everyone's satisfaction, which is arrant nonsense: Life itself is a matter of balance between infinite "tradeoffs" and as such will inevitably produce a certain "hypocrisy" across the board; except that I wouldn't characterise this as hypocrisy, at all - merely a general recognition that all human activity has both negative and positive aspects; in terms of our politics for example, I benefit from those aspects of socialism which we have democratically decided to incorporate into our essentially capitalist society - the NHS, state pensions for example - and even hard-core socialists benefit from the free exchange and distribution between willing parties, of goods and services; of course its imperfect - as, indeed would be any human-conceived system of organising society ...it is what it is, and attempts to achieve perfection, however defined, are guaranteed to end in failure, and possibly, conflict.... So in summary, child labour is just an unfortunate side effect of capitalism that we can't really do anything about? Displaying Trussian levels of blind adherence to dogma here, armchair man.
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Post by armchairfan on Aug 12, 2022 9:41:17 GMT 1
It is not deniable that "hypocrisy" exists at many levels and in an almost infinite number of issues, some of which you rightly highlight, but your message seems to be predicated on the ridiculous notion that all our "problems" can be addressed and eventually solved to everyone's satisfaction, which is arrant nonsense: Life itself is a matter of balance between infinite "tradeoffs" and as such will inevitably produce a certain "hypocrisy" across the board; except that I wouldn't characterise this as hypocrisy, at all - merely a general recognition that all human activity has both negative and positive aspects; in terms of our politics for example, I benefit from those aspects of socialism which we have democratically decided to incorporate into our essentially capitalist society - the NHS, state pensions for example - and even hard-core socialists benefit from the free exchange and distribution between willing parties, of goods and services; of course its imperfect - as, indeed would be any human-conceived system of organising society ...it is what it is, and attempts to achieve perfection, however defined, are guaranteed to end in failure, and possibly, conflict.... So in summary, child labour is just an unfortunate side effect of capitalism that we can't really do anything about? Displaying Trussian levels of blind adherence to dogma here, armchair man. "Blind adherence" indeed....pots and kettles, my friend! You miss my general assertion about inequalities and imperfections, whether deliberately or not, I have no idea; if you could perhaps take a step back from your own "adherence to dogma" and consider the wider philosophical implications of my post, perhaps we could engage positively without throwing accusations around. Whilst I am no scientist, there is a parallel in physics to my central point, relating to "work done" or energy expounded, or some such thing: in essence the physics law states that when there are no differences, activity of ALL sort ceases....total and complete entropy in other words; so far as the Universe is concerned, that is trillions of years in the future, but if one applies the law to human activity and interaction, the dread of an end to it all may, just MAY, be what your apparent philosophy will produce..... This is an horrendously difficult philosophical issue on which to spend time, and is much more the preserve of greater minds than ours
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Post by frankwellshrews on Aug 12, 2022 10:11:25 GMT 1
So in summary, child labour is just an unfortunate side effect of capitalism that we can't really do anything about? Displaying Trussian levels of blind adherence to dogma here, armchair man. "Blind adherence" indeed....pots and kettles, my friend! You miss my general assertion about inequalities and imperfections, whether deliberately or not, I have no idea; if you could perhaps take a step back from your own "adherence to dogma" and consider the wider philosophical implications of my post, perhaps we could engage positively without throwing accusations around. Whilst I am no scientist, there is a parallel in physics to my central point, relating to "work done" or energy expounded, or some such thing: in essence the physics law states that when there are no differences, activity of ALL sort ceases....total and complete entropy in other words; so far as the Universe is concerned, that is trillions of years in the future, but if one applies the law to human activity and interaction, the dread of an end to it all may, just MAY, be what your apparent philosophy will produce..... This is an horrendously difficult philosophical issue on which to spend time, and is much more the preserve of greater minds than ours More than happy to engage positively - it was actually you that waded in by calling my post "arrant nonsense". I fully understand your point about "not letting perfect be the enemy of good" but you're stretching that to breaking point by suggesting that access to smartphones or cheap clothing is a fair trade off for child labour or resource conflict in the developing world. The reality is we could very easily change habits and accept some inconveniences in the west to quickly improve conditions in the developing world but your " dogma" holds that our minor discomfort at that prospect is equivalent to the suffering going on in places like Central Africa or Bangladesh right now. It comes across as callous and out of touch if I'm honest.
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Post by armchairfan on Aug 12, 2022 11:10:58 GMT 1
"Blind adherence" indeed....pots and kettles, my friend! You miss my general assertion about inequalities and imperfections, whether deliberately or not, I have no idea; if you could perhaps take a step back from your own "adherence to dogma" and consider the wider philosophical implications of my post, perhaps we could engage positively without throwing accusations around. Whilst I am no scientist, there is a parallel in physics to my central point, relating to "work done" or energy expounded, or some such thing: in essence the physics law states that when there are no differences, activity of ALL sort ceases....total and complete entropy in other words; so far as the Universe is concerned, that is trillions of years in the future, but if one applies the law to human activity and interaction, the dread of an end to it all may, just MAY, be what your apparent philosophy will produce..... This is an horrendously difficult philosophical issue on which to spend time, and is much more the preserve of greater minds than ours More than happy to engage positively - it was actually you that waded in by calling my post "arrant nonsense". I fully understand your point about "not letting perfect be the enemy of good" but you're stretching that to breaking point by suggesting that access to smartphones or cheap clothing is a fair trade off for child labour or resource conflict in the developing world. The reality is we could very easily change habits and accept some inconveniences in the west to quickly improve conditions in the developing world but your " dogma" holds that our minor discomfort at that prospect is equivalent to the suffering going on in places like Central Africa or Bangladesh right now. It comes across as callous and out of touch if I'm honest. That constitutes progress of sorts - thanks! Nonetheless, I maintain that your stance is, in fact, an example of "letting the perfect be the enemy of good", a point which you claim to understand, yet simultaneously ignore by focusing on one aspect in isolation without considering those much wider implications to which I draw attention; I will not dwell on what I perceive to be the failures of unrestricted socialism, by way of response - and there are more than a few examples of that, as I think you know! No, let's try and concentrate on the general philosophies in opposition here..simplistic accusations of evil in specific areas, from either of us, is hardly likely to get us anywhere....I'm short, I suppose I am seeking some sort of consensus on the general rather than the particular....is that possible?
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Post by belfastshrew on Aug 12, 2022 22:36:22 GMT 1
Sometimes I rate my burps out of 10...
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Post by Pilch on Aug 12, 2022 22:45:56 GMT 1
this story is a load of b******s really, these countries need to sort out their own problems, I feel exploited at work myself and have an upcoming strike, will various countries be discussing postman at Royal Mail, nope so neither will I care about them, they lag behind us in everything and pay and conditions are work are one of them, good luck to them, it won't change
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