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Post by neilsalop on Jun 16, 2022 9:18:13 GMT 1
I haven't shouted.
One poster has clearly stated that he would happily sink the dinghies in the middle of the channel, so yeah I may actually turn on some people.
I don't actually see what is wrong with my post from 14 years ago. Yes something does need to be done about illegal immigration and possibly asylum too, because even I will concur that there are some spurious claims, but as I stated back then most of those coming here are coming to work, to earn money, pay taxes and hopefully be able to bring more of their family over here when they are settled.
There are more vacancies today than there are people out of work. If having to accept a very small minority of dodgy asylum claims is the price we have to pay for having a ready made workforce wanting to come here to fill these vacancies then I think it's a price worth paying. Put conditions on their asylum acceptance requiring them to work and pay taxes, that way they don't get swallowed up by the black economy. Having to pay to keep hundreds of people in hotels up and down the country is ridiculous when most of them would be happy to work for a living and attempt to better their lives.
We should be working night and day to process these asylum claims and get these people out of the hotels and into the workforce, but then some people would turn it around and say that ''aLL veez IMIGRUNTS r tAkin r jObs''.
You complain when people call you out for something you've posted Pilch, but I have said nothing to you for weeks, so why the unprovoked attack on me, with the threat of 'plenty more' to come? If I have inadvertently said something that has upset you to the point that you feel the need to attack me then you have my full and unreserved apology, but as far as I was aware the only mild attacks I have made on this thread were against the racists and surely you are not defending the sinking of dinghies in the English Channel and the loss of life that would entail.
i'm just fed of of the latest craze on here some posters on here one poster in particular etc why not reply to them instead of idle gossiping about them ? all it ends up doing is others joining in , which i guess was the initial aim i don't like it , that's all I did reply, but he chose to ignore it, which is his prerogative. There have been several posts on here that, although not directly racist do have undertones of racism and that led me to say "some posters". I don't need to be getting into rows with individual members, so I put them all into one block. They no doubt know who they are. I don't particularly like some of the borderline racist comments on here, so I will call the more obvious ones out. I'm sure that I will have your full support on this. Or at least I hope so.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2022 9:20:43 GMT 1
In a way the outcome of this is a good one for the gov't. If the whole thing fails and they are forced to scrap it then they will blame lawyers and ECHR, rather than taking ownership of a ill-thought out scheme. Plus it could lead to them giving them justification (in their eyes) to pull out of the ECHR although I still think that is very unlikely. Alternatively, if they do manage to get it operational and actually have people on the flights then it will be spun as a victory against the lawyers/bureaucrats/ECHR which many people will lap up, even some who had previously questioned the morality of the approach.
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Post by Pilch on Jun 16, 2022 15:44:25 GMT 1
these human beings you mention are said to have fled their own country due to them not feeling safe then after travelling through dozens of safe countries they reach the edge of france and pay someone to put their lives at a massive risk to attempt to take them illegally to the uk the uk has come up with a safe plan for them which hopefully in the long run will save lives and put traffickers out of business buy hey let's not look further than the ends of our noses , let's just take the opportunity to moan about something we don't normally moan about because it's a cheap shot at the government and those who speak out against cheap shots I was taking issue with the suggestion that the authorities should attempt to sink the inflatable boats to prevent them from reaching our shores. Whatever circumstances have led those people to attempt such a dangerous crossing, surely nothing would justify trying to drown them would it? As for the Rwanda plan itself, maybe it will work in the end. In the meantime, many of us have serious doubts about it for various reasons. It is perfectly legitimate to question/challenge/oppose a government policy so I am not sure why you have to characterise this as ‘moaning’ or having a ‘cheap shot’. An alternative approach (mentioned by others in this thread) would be to allow the majority of those wishing to come here to enter legally. There is hardly a business anywhere in the country that is not crying out for staff, not to mention the fact that many migrants have family members already here who would help them. Get them into paid employment and paying taxes and this will be a net gain for the country, rather than the drain on resources that we see with the current backlog of applications (thousands in holding accommodation awaiting processing) or Patel’s speculative and highly expensive plan. sorry, fair point, having checked I was mistaken to think you were quoting me
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Post by Pilch on Jun 16, 2022 15:47:55 GMT 1
I don't need to be getting into rows with individual members, so I put them all into one block. They no doubt know who they are. so you tar them all with the same brush, gossip about them and therefore post an open invitation for a row its where this board goes wrong
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 16, 2022 16:06:35 GMT 1
these human beings you mention are said to have fled their own country due to them not feeling safe then after travelling through dozens of safe countries they reach the edge of france and pay someone to put their lives at a massive risk to attempt to take them illegally to the uk the uk has come up with a safe plan for them which hopefully in the long run will save lives and put traffickers out of business buy hey let's not look further than the ends of our noses , let's just take the opportunity to moan about something we don't normally moan about because it's a cheap shot at the government and those who speak out against cheap shots An alternative approach (mentioned by others in this thread) would be to allow the majority of those wishing to come here to enter legally. There is hardly a business anywhere in the country that is not crying out for staff, not to mention the fact that many migrants have family members already here who would help them. Get them into paid employment and paying taxes and this will be a net gain for the country, rather than the drain on resources that we see with the current backlog of applications (thousands in holding accommodation awaiting processing) or Patel’s speculative and highly expensive plan.
When you talk about the majority though, do you mean those who are currently located in France, Europe, further afield? How many would that be? And are we talking about that on an ongoing basis; day after day, month after month, year after year? As I gather there is a constant stream of people who enter France who wish to continue on to the UK (or is that not the case)? So from here on in, the UK would allow a majority of those who arrive in France who wish to go on to the UK to do so? And there would be no cap on that, no end?
And what of those who fall outside of that majority, how many would that leave in France still wishing to travel onto the UK and what would we expect them to do? Wouldn't they turn to the traffickers?
As I understand it the partnership with Rwanda is to create a deterrent, to stop people in France paying traffickers and attempting to cross the channel. For me what you suggest might well do the opposite. I think it would be a massive pull factor for more and more people to get to France and then continue on to the UK. And for all the will in the world, I do not believe the UK can host all who would wish to resettle there.
And when it comes to businesses and employment; I'm not sure we can assume that everyone who arrives in the UK can simply fit straight into the workforce (if at all). Many who arrived here in Germany for example, from what I understand, still remain outside of the workforce. And if there is a constant stream of people wishing to resettle in the UK (which could well grow and grow and grow with the pull factor), is the UK well placed to employ them all?
Regarding the backlog, isn't that to determine who is arriving in the UK and to check who they are, where they are from, their past, what their intentions are? Surely the UK should know who is wishing to live and work there before allowing them to do so? Or maybe I have it wrong but I would have thought that would make up some part of the processing ongoing.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 16, 2022 16:23:06 GMT 1
In a way the outcome of this is a good one for the gov't. If the whole thing fails and they are forced to scrap it then they will blame lawyers and ECHR, rather than taking ownership of a ill-thought out scheme. Plus it could lead to them giving them justification (in their eyes) to pull out of the ECHR although I still think that is very unlikely. Alternatively, if they do manage to get it operational and actually have people on the flights then it will be spun as a victory against the lawyers/bureaucrats/ECHR which many people will lap up, even some who had previously questioned the morality of the approach. Yeah, agree with that. I think they know what they are doing and that is looking to be doing something. I think it also helps that whilst Labour look decent enough criticizing the government, they don't tend to have solutions of their own (with any real meat on them anyhow, from what I've seen).
I mean I very much doubt that the French will be too keen on seeing processing centres on French soil as I would think any failed asylum seekers would then be their responsibility. Something I'm sure they would very much like to avoid. I think the current situation suites the French down to the ground.
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Post by ssshrew on Jun 16, 2022 16:23:25 GMT 1
If being sent to Rwanda is being described as a deterrent, it really doesn’t put a very positive slant on the idea or on Rwanda if you ask me. Far better if it had been described as a fresh start or an opportunity.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 16, 2022 16:39:10 GMT 1
If being sent to Rwanda is being described as a deterrent, it really doesn’t put a very positive slant on the idea or on Rwanda if you ask me. Far better if it had been described as a fresh start or an opportunity. In respect that they may not be resettled in the country of their choice but rather in another country. That's it. I don't see that as a slight towards Rwanda at all.
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Post by neilsalop on Jun 16, 2022 17:38:04 GMT 1
I don't need to be getting into rows with individual members, so I put them all into one block. They no doubt know who they are. so you tar them all with the same brush, gossip about them and therefore post an open invitation for a row its where this board goes wrong Well if you would rather I can start blazing rows, but I would rather point out that some of the posts are bordering on racism and leave the posters to think about whether they actually meant to come across that way. I'm not tarring people with the same brush as I am not naming names or quoting posts. I'm trying to move on from this and I thought you would like to too, but for some reason you want to be seen making your point, whatever that actually is. Maybe this time I'll just leave you to have the last word and convince yourself that you won an argument that wasn't even there. Crack on owd lad.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2022 18:03:03 GMT 1
so you tar them all with the same brush, gossip about them and therefore post an open invitation for a row its where this board goes wrong Not wishing at all to get involved in this, but would you give us your opinion on scousers? 👍
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Post by Pilch on Jun 16, 2022 18:03:41 GMT 1
so you tar them all with the same brush, gossip about them and therefore post an open invitation for a row its where this board goes wrong Well if you would rather I can start blazing rows, but I would rather point out that some of the posts are bordering on racism and leave the posters to think about whether they actually meant to come across that way. I'm not tarring people with the same brush as I am not naming names or quoting posts. I'm trying to move on from this and I thought you would like to too, but for some reason you want to be seen making your point, whatever that actually is. Maybe this time I'll just leave you to have the last word and convince yourself that you won an argument that wasn't even there. Crack on owd lad. why does it have to be a blazing row ? , or even just a row ?, a difference of opinion on here is often met with Paxman type demands to answer questions or idle gossip about them
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Post by armchairfan on Jun 16, 2022 18:40:06 GMT 1
Whilst I confess to feeling some disquiet regarding this scheme for a number of reasons (will it work? is it in any case feasible?) I am weary of the recurring accusations of racism being levelled at some contributors - it is lazy hyperbole, just as accusations of "naziism" have been in other contexts. It is true for most of us that we tend to stick with people who share, in general terms, our culture and our means of resolving differences (in which the UK has, almost uniquely, shown a great ability for a few hundred years). I have known some on here who refuse to sit down with an individual with opposing political views, thankfully few of them, but ultimately we tend to agree to disagree and get on with our lives. Like it or not ( and I tend not to) Immigration, and the perception held by many, especially in the C2 social group, that uncontrolled immigration can mitigate against a cohesive society; this was the Great Mistake of the Remainers, in hinting that at the very bottom of the Brexit cause there existed a deeply-held racist element. Now, I think it's fair to say that few people are likely to react kindly to such an accusation (frankly, it doesn't bother me - I have been called far worse) but to label anyone who has dared to express even a grudging admission that HM government may, possibly, just POSSIBLY, have a duty to take such action as it is able, as being inherently "racist" merely repeats the error of the Remain camp, and progresses the debate not one step. The day when we can't (or won't) accept the decisions arrived at by a largely, albeit imperfect, democratic settlement is the end of that settlement, and probably of democracy itself in the UK.
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Post by neilsalop on Jun 16, 2022 19:03:46 GMT 1
Whilst I confess to feeling some disquiet regarding this scheme for a number of reasons (will it work? is it in any case feasible?) I am weary of the recurring accusations of racism being levelled at some contributors - it is lazy hyperbole, just as accusations of "naziism" have been in other contexts. It is true for most of us that we tend to stick with people who share, in general terms, our culture and our means of resolving differences (in which the UK has, almost uniquely, shown a great ability for a few hundred years). I have known some on here who refuse to sit down with an individual with opposing political views, thankfully few of them, but ultimately we tend to agree to disagree and get on with our lives. Like it or not ( and I tend not to) Immigration, and the perception held by many, especially in the C2 social group, that uncontrolled immigration can mitigate against a cohesive society; this was the Great Mistake of the Remainers, in hinting that at the very bottom of the Brexit cause there existed a deeply-held racist element. Now, I think it's fair to say that few people are likely to react kindly to such an accusation (frankly, it doesn't bother me - I have been called far worse) but to label anyone who has dared to express even a grudging admission that HM government may, possibly, just POSSIBLY, have a duty to take such action as it is able, as being inherently "racist" merely repeats the error of the Remain camp, and progresses the debate not one step. The day when we can't (or won't) accept the decisions arrived at by a largely, albeit imperfect, democratic settlement is the end of that settlement, and probably of democracy itself in the UK. Would you say that the post ''Agree whole heartily it’s is a flight of shame….should have filled it to reduce cost'' didn't contain the slightest hint of racism?
What about ''alternatively some strategically placed spikes, a water equivalent to what the police use to stop cars''?
I have not actually accused anyone of outright racism, just of making posts that I consider to be racist in nature.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2022 19:14:29 GMT 1
our culture and our means of resolving differences (in which the UK has, almost uniquely, shown a great ability for a few hundred years). . Spot on! Churchills championing of the ECHR is a fine example👍
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Post by Red Rose In Exile on Jun 16, 2022 19:34:05 GMT 1
My opinion is just that. Your opinion may be different.
FFS just accept the above.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 16, 2022 19:44:47 GMT 1
I don't know what the answer to this problem is but anyone with any human empathy for their fellow human will feel very uncomfortable with this process. To me it just doesn't feel right. I have no answers and accept it is a difficult issue to resolve I'd say that there are a decent percentage of posters on here that are more than comfortable with it. Human empathy is an alien concept to some people. Each to their own, dear boy, each to their own. There's only one we really need to worry about - the one with her hands on the levers, Priti Patel.
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Post by Pilch on Jun 16, 2022 21:12:54 GMT 1
so you tar them all with the same brush, gossip about them and therefore post an open invitation for a row its where this board goes wrong Not wishing at all to get involved in this, but would you give us your opinion on scousers? 👍 I wondered when your arrive to completely change the subject like you always do when I have a valid point, jog on
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2022 21:26:39 GMT 1
Not wishing at all to get involved in this, but would you give us your opinion on scousers? 👍 I wondered when your arrive to completely change the subject like you always do when I have a valid point, jog on you’d **
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 16, 2022 21:36:23 GMT 1
I wondered when your arrive to completely change the subject like you always do when I have a valid point, jog on you’d ** Did you know the Eiffel Tower can be 15 cm taller during the summer, due to thermal expansion meaning the iron heats up, the particles gain kinetic energy and take up more space.
There, that's those valid points quashed
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Post by armchairfan on Jun 17, 2022 7:56:18 GMT 1
Whilst I confess to feeling some disquiet regarding this scheme for a number of reasons (will it work? is it in any case feasible?) I am weary of the recurring accusations of racism being levelled at some contributors - it is lazy hyperbole, just as accusations of "naziism" have been in other contexts. It is true for most of us that we tend to stick with people who share, in general terms, our culture and our means of resolving differences (in which the UK has, almost uniquely, shown a great ability for a few hundred years). I have known some on here who refuse to sit down with an individual with opposing political views, thankfully few of them, but ultimately we tend to agree to disagree and get on with our lives. Like it or not ( and I tend not to) Immigration, and the perception held by many, especially in the C2 social group, that uncontrolled immigration can mitigate against a cohesive society; this was the Great Mistake of the Remainers, in hinting that at the very bottom of the Brexit cause there existed a deeply-held racist element. Now, I think it's fair to say that few people are likely to react kindly to such an accusation (frankly, it doesn't bother me - I have been called far worse) but to label anyone who has dared to express even a grudging admission that HM government may, possibly, just POSSIBLY, have a duty to take such action as it is able, as being inherently "racist" merely repeats the error of the Remain camp, and progresses the debate not one step. The day when we can't (or won't) accept the decisions arrived at by a largely, albeit imperfect, democratic settlement is the end of that settlement, and probably of democracy itself in the UK. Would you say that the post ''Agree whole heartily it’s is a flight of shame….should have filled it to reduce cost'' didn't contain the slightest hint of racism?
What about ''alternatively some strategically placed spikes, a water equivalent to what the police use to stop cars''?
I have not actually accused anyone of outright racism, just of making posts that I consider to be racist in nature.
Both of those examples were clearly intended either ironically, or to amuse....all right, I get that not everyone gets humour and irony, but to believe that those comments were intended to be taken seriously and then to use them as examples of racism is beyond absurd. Spikes under one of the most congested shipping lanes in the world.... You believe THAT to be a serious idea? And people wonder why I sometimes despair about some of your cognitive reasoning..... There are a few good reasons why this scheme may not be a solution, but there is nothing "moral" in the failure to eliminate the sub-human scum of traffickers to continue with their miserable trade....for me, that is the number one priority!
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Post by Pilch on Jun 17, 2022 9:42:16 GMT 1
Would you say that the post ''Agree whole heartily it’s is a flight of shame….should have filled it to reduce cost'' didn't contain the slightest hint of racism?
What about ''alternatively some strategically placed spikes, a water equivalent to what the police use to stop cars''?
I have not actually accused anyone of outright racism, just of making posts that I consider to be racist in nature.
Both of those examples were clearly intended either ironically, or to amuse....all right, I get that not everyone gets humour and irony, but to believe that those comments were intended to be taken seriously and then to use them as examples of racism is beyond absurd. Spikes under one of the most congested shipping lanes in the world.... You believe THAT to be a serious idea? And people wonder why I sometimes despair about some of your cognitive reasoning..... There are a few good reasons why this scheme may not be a solution, but there is nothing "moral" in the failure to eliminate the sub-human scum of traffickers to continue with their miserable trade....for me, that is the number one priority! but don't forget the real reason it's an opportunity to be shocked and have a lame pop at boris, and everyone else not singing from the same hymn sheet 🤪
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 17, 2022 9:46:17 GMT 1
My opinion is just that. Your opinion may be different. FFS just accept the above. Not sure who this post was aimed at, but it's worth repeating here.
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Post by armchairfan on Jun 17, 2022 13:56:08 GMT 1
Both of those examples were clearly intended either ironically, or to amuse....all right, I get that not everyone gets humour and irony, but to believe that those comments were intended to be taken seriously and then to use them as examples of racism is beyond absurd. Spikes under one of the most congested shipping lanes in the world.... You believe THAT to be a serious idea? And people wonder why I sometimes despair about some of your cognitive reasoning..... There are a few good reasons why this scheme may not be a solution, but there is nothing "moral" in the failure to eliminate the sub-human scum of traffickers to continue with their miserable trade....for me, that is the number one priority! but don't forget the real reason it's an opportunity to be shocked and have a lame pop at boris, and everyone else not singing from the same hymn sheet 🤪 You may possibly be right there, but I wouldn't presume to know their "real reason"; I have to say that my opinion as to what to do with these traffickers would be unlikely to sit comfortably within some people's standards of "morality" but we have to acknowledge that there may be no "win-win" solution. If those who object so vehemently to these plans could come up with a feasible, practicable and reasonable alternative, thereby moving the debate forward, it may help somewhat.
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Post by Red Rose In Exile on Jun 17, 2022 16:07:50 GMT 1
My opinion is just that. Your opinion may be different. FFS just accept the above. Not sure who this post was aimed at, but it's worth repeating here. Nobody in particular!
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Post by Pilch on Jun 17, 2022 16:18:55 GMT 1
My opinion is just that. Your opinion may be different. FFS just accept the above. tut tut some people on here think they are allowed their own opinion ( seriously I agree, good post )
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Post by returnofthehype on Jun 17, 2022 17:53:31 GMT 1
Whilst I confess to feeling some disquiet regarding this scheme for a number of reasons (will it work? is it in any case feasible?) I am weary of the recurring accusations of racism being levelled at some contributors - it is lazy hyperbole, just as accusations of "naziism" have been in other contexts. It is true for most of us that we tend to stick with people who share, in general terms, our culture and our means of resolving differences (in which the UK has, almost uniquely, shown a great ability for a few hundred years). I have known some on here who refuse to sit down with an individual with opposing political views, thankfully few of them, but ultimately we tend to agree to disagree and get on with our lives. Like it or not ( and I tend not to) Immigration, and the perception held by many, especially in the C2 social group, that uncontrolled immigration can mitigate against a cohesive society; this was the Great Mistake of the Remainers, in hinting that at the very bottom of the Brexit cause there existed a deeply-held racist element. Now, I think it's fair to say that few people are likely to react kindly to such an accusation (frankly, it doesn't bother me - I have been called far worse) but to label anyone who has dared to express even a grudging admission that HM government may, possibly, just POSSIBLY, have a duty to take such action as it is able, as being inherently "racist" merely repeats the error of the Remain camp, and progresses the debate not one step. The day when we can't (or won't) accept the decisions arrived at by a largely, albeit imperfect, democratic settlement is the end of that settlement, and probably of democracy itself in the UK. Would you say that the post ''Agree whole heartily it’s is a flight of shame….should have filled it to reduce cost'' didn't contain the slightest hint of racism?
What about ''alternatively some strategically placed spikes, a water equivalent to what the police use to stop cars''?
I have not actually accused anyone of outright racism, just of making posts that I consider to be racist in nature.
Jesus wept…how in any shape or form can either if MY post be construed as racist…in bad taste, most likely…in sensitive, probably…racist…. Not in a million years… Happy for you to prove otherwise, I will stand corrected if you can explain how you come to your not so unexpected conclusion 👍
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Post by zenfootball2 on Jun 18, 2022 16:47:06 GMT 1
i do not agree with the removal to Rawnada but the Archbishop of Rwanda has a different take on it. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-61851463Rwanda's Anglican Archbishop says he disagrees with senior Church of England leaders over the UK's asylum plan. Earlier this week, they had said the policy to remove asylum seekers to Rwanda "shames Britain". But Archbishop Laurent Mbanda said it was not immoral and Rwanda was ready to welcome people needing a home. He said many Rwandans had lived in exile because of the genocide in the 1990s, so they understood the issues faced by people fleeing their homes. Under the terms of the five-year deal, Rwanda becomes responsible for the asylum seekers who had travelled to the UK. They will be accommodated and supported while their claim is processed - and if granted permanent refugee status, will remain in Rwanda.The Anglican Churches in Africa have an increasingly tense relationship with their mother church over Biblical interpretations of issues like same-sex marriage. Archbishop Mbanda says he believes that as colonial days are over, the African churches have to think and speak for themselves. The Anglican Church, the cleric says, is led by one among equals, and that it is time for the African churches to challenge their mother church, not waiting for the Archbishop of Canterbury to tell them what to do. During his Easter sermon at Canterbury Cathedral, the Most Reverend Justin Welby had suggested the UK's asylum plan was "ungodly".
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Post by zenfootball2 on Jun 18, 2022 16:52:03 GMT 1
it seems that economic migrants coming from Africa mainly come from, Nigeria, Ghana ,kenya and South Africa ( goggle ), instead of spending a small fortune on deporting them to Rawanda, i personally feel the goverment should use some of £14 billion aid budget to improve things in these four countrys, help with infastructure and start up companies to improve living conditions, job opportunitys and wages so they will not need to come. i was suprised to haer people from nigeria are coming as it is africas richest country
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Post by zenfootball2 on Jun 18, 2022 16:55:15 GMT 1
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 18, 2022 19:43:01 GMT 1
Prince Charles is off to Rwanda next week. I wonder if they will grant him asylum or send him back?
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