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Post by zenfootball2 on Jun 9, 2022 22:07:51 GMT 1
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 9, 2022 22:50:55 GMT 1
Computer chips from Taiwan is something we need to produce or have alternative sources.
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Post by Pilch on Jun 9, 2022 23:20:49 GMT 1
is this a new thing ? as a kid in the 70s it seemed everything I picked up had the words 'Made in China' written on it
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Post by servernaside on Jun 10, 2022 9:23:16 GMT 1
The problem with dependency on energy from Russia and manufactured goods from China is that while they are cheap and convenient, our purchases hugely empower these countries.. Neither seems willing, or able to have anything other than totalitarian governments either to date, or for the foreseeable future with all the dangers that poses to global security.
There is no doubt that we need to become less dependent, at least for certain key things, as soon as possible.
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Post by block12massive on Jun 10, 2022 9:44:17 GMT 1
The left
"We shouldn't be buying things from totalitarian governments, terrorist states or countries that employ slave labourers. We should be self-dependent"
The government
"Lets create British jobs for British people"
The left again
"Urgh that's right wing fascist trope"
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Post by We Are The Riverside on Jun 10, 2022 9:57:38 GMT 1
The left "We shouldn't be buying things from totalitarian governments, terrorist states or countries that employ slave labourers. We should be self-dependent" The government "Lets create British jobs for British people" The left again "Urgh that's right wing fascist trope" I think the implication of the phrase “British jobs for British people” is pretty different than, say, “Let’s create jobs in Britain”. |
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Post by block12massive on Jun 10, 2022 10:13:30 GMT 1
The left "We shouldn't be buying things from totalitarian governments, terrorist states or countries that employ slave labourers. We should be self-dependent" The government "Lets create British jobs for British people" The left again "Urgh that's right wing fascist trope" I think the implication of the phrase “British jobs for British people” is pretty different than, say, “Let’s create jobs in Britain”. Not really. The left are obsessed with self-identity but loathe the idea of nationalism until it comes to scoring petty political points. For example Mo Farah becomes Somalian when he wins Olympic gold and Emma Radacanu became Romanian/Canadian/Chinese when she won the US Open. The individual's British identity suddenly gets annulled by those who think they're the good guys and they become immigrants again. 'British people' would surely apply to the people of Britain or those who had legal right to work here. If we created jobs for the people here already, we would then be accused of being hostile to immigration or the agenda will be shifted to not taking in enough refugees or whatever the cause d'jour is at that time. Been there, seen it, got the t-shirt. |
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Post by We Are The Riverside on Jun 10, 2022 10:21:47 GMT 1
I think the implication of the phrase “British jobs for British people” is pretty different than, say, “Let’s create jobs in Britain”. Not really. The left are obsessed with self-identity but loathe the idea of nationalism until it comes to scoring petty political points. For example Mo Farah becomes Somalian when he wins Olympic gold and Emma Radacanu became Romanian/Canadian/Chinese when she won the US Open. The individual's British identity suddenly gets annulled by those who think they're the good guys and they become immigrants again. 'British people' would surely apply to the people of Britain or those who had legal right to work here. If we created jobs for the people here already, we would then be accused of being hostile to immigration or the agenda will be shifted to not taking in enough refugees or whatever the cause d'jour is at that time. Been there, seen it, got the t-shirt. None of this has anything to do with, as a country, being self-sufficient. |
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 10, 2022 10:31:12 GMT 1
Why has this thread been taken down a Left vs Right cul de sac?
The thread is "O/T - EU to reduce dependancy on China for materials"
We should reduce dependancy in case of potential destabalisation, as we have with Russia. Not all those low skill jobs are going to be heading back to Britain. We need to be a high skill, high wage economy. Though some low skill work might come back here through automation. Check the label on your underpants, the old ones might say "made in Turkey", or "made in Tunisia", but new ones in the shops are probably all "made in China" - companies have got lazy and placed too much reliance on China, or, for the EU in particular, too much reliance on Russia for energy.
As Severnside stated above, the key point is: "The problem with dependency on energy from Russia and manufactured goods from China is that while they are cheap and convenient, our purchases hugely empower these countries.. Neither seems willing, or able to have anything other than totalitarian governments either to date, or for the foreseeable future with all the dangers that poses to global security.
There is no doubt that we need to become less dependent, at least for certain key things, as soon as possible".
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Post by block12massive on Jun 10, 2022 10:31:13 GMT 1
Not really. The left are obsessed with self-identity but loathe the idea of nationalism until it comes to scoring petty political points. For example Mo Farah becomes Somalian when he wins Olympic gold and Emma Radacanu became Romanian/Canadian/Chinese when she won the US Open. The individual's British identity suddenly gets annulled by those who think they're the good guys and they become immigrants again. 'British people' would surely apply to the people of Britain or those who had legal right to work here. If we created jobs for the people here already, we would then be accused of being hostile to immigration or the agenda will be shifted to not taking in enough refugees or whatever the cause d'jour is at that time. Been there, seen it, got the t-shirt. None of this has anything to do with, as a country, being self-sufficient. There would be prominent opposition voices who would disagree wholeheartedly with the idea of being self-reliant. That's my point. |
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 10, 2022 10:35:06 GMT 1
China aren't as bad as Russia, but we still need to heavily reduce our activities there, or place extra tax on items from China and companies using Chinese warehouses.
Russia just needs isolating and left like it, **** them, they've burnt their bridges, they can suffer decades of financial hardship. I'd offer visas to those who have gone up against Putin and tried to form alternative government, it's not their war.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 10, 2022 10:41:16 GMT 1
China aren't as bad as Russia, but we still need to heavily reduce our activities there, or place extra tax on items from China and companies using Chinese warehouses. Russia just needs isolating and left like it, **** them, they've burnt their bridges, they can suffer decades of financial hardship. I'd offer visas to those who have gone up against Putin and tried to form alternative government, it's not their war. Russia set to suffer a brain drain too as the intelligent ones realise there's limited future there. |
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 10, 2022 10:48:31 GMT 1
China aren't as bad as Russia, but we still need to heavily reduce our activities there, or place extra tax on items from China and companies using Chinese warehouses. Russia just needs isolating and left like it, **** them, they've burnt their bridges, they can suffer decades of financial hardship. I'd offer visas to those who have gone up against Putin and tried to form alternative government, it's not their war. Russia set to suffer a brain drain too as the intelligent ones realise there's limited future there. Jolly good, I quietly celebrate every single piece of bad news for that prehistoric country. |
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Post by block12massive on Jun 10, 2022 10:48:56 GMT 1
Why has this thread been taken down a Left vs Right cul de sac? The thread is "O/T - EU to reduce dependancy on China for materials" We should reduce dependancy in case of potential destabalisation, as we have with Russia. Not all those low skill jobs are going to be heading back to Britain. We need to be a high skill, high wage economy. Though some low skill work might come back here thrugh automation. Check the label on your underpants, the old ones might say "made in Turkey", or "made in Tunisia", but new ones in the shops are probably all "made in China" - companies have got lazy and placed too much reiance on China, or, for the EU in particular, too much reliance on Russia for energy. As Severnside stated above, the problem is: "The problem with dependency on energy from Russia and manufactured goods from China is that while they are cheap and convenient, our purchases hugely empower these countries.. Neither seems willing, or able to have anything other than totalitarian governments either to date, or for the foreseeable future with all the dangers that poses to global security. There is no doubt that we need to become less dependent, at least for certain key things, as soon as possible". Makes a change from it becoming a Labour v Tory "avenue". I thing we can all agree on becoming more independent and self-sufficient but history will tell you it's not that easy and people will be reluctant to endorse it in practice. The NHS is a good example. For some reason the people who laud the health service and celebrate it's diversity seem ignorant to the morally questionable in-effect 'colonisation' of skilled workers from third world countries. I accept being a GP or medic is not something you can 'learn on the job' but surely some forecasting supported by appropriate funding could ensure that the majority of NHS skilled jobs are recruited for in the UK. The figure is currently 37% for any one that's interested. www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/08/nhs-hiring-more-doctors-from-outside-uk-and-eea-than-inside-for-first-timeIf that figure became 80/90% and we reached a time where British born or British trained GPs were significantly outnumbering that of those from the sub-continent, Africa etc, and the need for skilled immigration was near redundant, how long would it be before someone on the left decries it as being a policy based on colonialist racist attitudes or something of the ilk? |
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 10, 2022 10:52:02 GMT 1
None of this has anything to do with, as a country, being self-sufficient. There would be prominent opposition voices who would disagree wholeheartedly with the idea of being self-reliant. That's my point. Your point further up the thread was: The left
"We shouldn't be buying things from totalitarian governments, terrorist states or countries that employ slave labourers. We should be self-dependent"
Do you think "the Left" want to be "self-dependent", but not "self-reliant"?
Makes no sense.
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Post by block12massive on Jun 10, 2022 10:53:53 GMT 1
There would be prominent opposition voices who would disagree wholeheartedly with the idea of being self-reliant. That's my point. Your point further up the thread was: The left
"We shouldn't be buying things from totalitarian governments, terrorist states or countries that employ slave labourers. We should be self-dependent"
Do you think "the Left" want to be "self-dependent", but not "self-reliant"?
Makes no sense.
Tomatoes, tomatoes. It is in effect the same thing. |
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 10, 2022 11:01:41 GMT 1
Why has this thread been taken down a Left vs Right cul de sac? The thread is "O/T - EU to reduce dependancy on China for materials" We should reduce dependancy in case of potential destabalisation, as we have with Russia. Not all those low skill jobs are going to be heading back to Britain. We need to be a high skill, high wage economy. Though some low skill work might come back here thrugh automation. Check the label on your underpants, the old ones might say "made in Turkey", or "made in Tunisia", but new ones in the shops are probably all "made in China" - companies have got lazy and placed too much reiance on China, or, for the EU in particular, too much reliance on Russia for energy. As Severnside stated above, the problem is: "The problem with dependency on energy from Russia and manufactured goods from China is that while they are cheap and convenient, our purchases hugely empower these countries.. Neither seems willing, or able to have anything other than totalitarian governments either to date, or for the foreseeable future with all the dangers that poses to global security. There is no doubt that we need to become less dependent, at least for certain key things, as soon as possible". Makes a change from it becoming a Labour v Tory "avenue". I thing we can all agree on becoming more independent and self-sufficient but history will tell you it's not that easy and people will be reluctant to endorse it in practice. The NHS is a good example. For some reason the people who laud the health service and celebrate it's diversity seem ignorant to the morally questionable in-effect 'colonisation' of skilled workers from third world countries. I accept being a GP or medic is not something you can 'learn on the job' but surely some forecasting supported by appropriate funding could ensure that the majority of NHS skilled jobs are recruited for in the UK. The figure is currently 37% for any one that's interested. www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/08/nhs-hiring-more-doctors-from-outside-uk-and-eea-than-inside-for-first-timeIf that figure became 80/90% and we reached a time where British born or British trained GPs were significantly outnumbering that of those from the sub-continent, Africa etc, and the need for skilled immigration was near redundant, how long would it be before someone on the left decries it as being a policy based on colonialist racist attitudes or something of the ilk? Don't think we will be aiming to be independent or self-sufficient, just to have alternative suppliers.
As for the NHS, people retire. The Conservatives have been in power long enough to do some planning and train up new staff to replace them, but too often get caught short and have to recruit from abroad, no doubt depleting whichever health service they come from.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jun 10, 2022 11:08:27 GMT 1
Your point further up the thread was: The left
"We shouldn't be buying things from totalitarian governments, terrorist states or countries that employ slave labourers. We should be self-dependent" Do you think "the Left" want to be "self-dependent", but not "self-reliant"?
Makes no sense.
Tomatoes, tomatoes. It is in effect the same thing. That is exactly my point. You stated the left want to be self-dependent, then you say "There would be prominent opposition voices who would disagree wholeheartedly with the idea of being self-reliant"
Which is it?.
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Post by block12massive on Jun 10, 2022 11:20:49 GMT 1
Tomatoes, tomatoes. It is in effect the same thing. That is exactly my point. You stated the left want to be self-dependent, then you say "There would be prominent opposition voices who would disagree wholeheartedly with the idea of being self-reliant"
Which is it?.
I beg your pardon, I misunderstood you. My original post was a poor attempt at sarcasm and referenced Gordon Brown's pledge to create "British jobs for British people" which was then decried as racist by some of his own supporters. |
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Post by servernaside on Jun 10, 2022 19:50:25 GMT 1
China aren't as bad as Russia, but we still need to heavily reduce our activities there, or place extra tax on items from China and companies using Chinese warehouses. Russia just needs isolating and left like it, **** them, they've burnt their bridges, they can suffer decades of financial hardship. I'd offer visas to those who have gone up against Putin and tried to form alternative government, it's not their war. The last thing they need is visas to leave. The only way change will happen is for these people to remain in Russia. |
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jun 11, 2022 12:34:21 GMT 1
Why has this thread been taken down a Left vs Right cul de sac? The thread is "O/T - EU to reduce dependancy on China for materials" We should reduce dependancy in case of potential destabalisation, as we have with Russia. Not all those low skill jobs are going to be heading back to Britain. We need to be a high skill, high wage economy. Though some low skill work might come back here thrugh automation. Check the label on your underpants, the old ones might say "made in Turkey", or "made in Tunisia", but new ones in the shops are probably all "made in China" - companies have got lazy and placed too much reiance on China, or, for the EU in particular, too much reliance on Russia for energy. As Severnside stated above, the problem is: "The problem with dependency on energy from Russia and manufactured goods from China is that while they are cheap and convenient, our purchases hugely empower these countries.. Neither seems willing, or able to have anything other than totalitarian governments either to date, or for the foreseeable future with all the dangers that poses to global security. There is no doubt that we need to become less dependent, at least for certain key things, as soon as possible". Makes a change from it becoming a Labour v Tory "avenue". I thing we can all agree on becoming more independent and self-sufficient but history will tell you it's not that easy and people will be reluctant to endorse it in practice. The NHS is a good example. For some reason the people who laud the health service and celebrate it's diversity seem ignorant to the morally questionable in-effect 'colonisation' of skilled workers from third world countries. I accept being a GP or medic is not something you can 'learn on the job' but surely some forecasting supported by appropriate funding could ensure that the majority of NHS skilled jobs are recruited for in the UK. The figure is currently 37% for any one that's interested. www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/08/nhs-hiring-more-doctors-from-outside-uk-and-eea-than-inside-for-first-timeIf that figure became 80/90% and we reached a time where British born or British trained GPs were significantly outnumbering that of those from the sub-continent, Africa etc, and the need for skilled immigration was near redundant, how long would it be before someone on the left decries it as being a policy based on colonialist racist attitudes or something of the ilk? Are you mixing up two different things here? I think that article is talking about hospital trusts having to recruit staff from abroad to take salaried positions. GPs are effectively private contractors to the NHS and can earn £100k+ if they become a partner in a practice but working on a salary in an actual hospital is becoming less and less attractive due to student debt and government imposed pay restraint on top of a gruelling training period, hence the pipeline of native Brits wanting to do these jobs is drying up and the UK has to look elsewhere. The solution is surely to cancel or slash student debt for people training to be doctors and increase pay. Anyone know which end of the political spectrum is dead set against doing that? The reality is "the right" have been in power for ten years and are quite comfortable relying on imported labour they haven't had to invest to train because it's in keeping with austerity policies. Not saying "the left" necessarily has a better track record but really not sure how you're trying to blame one end of the political spectrum for this. |
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Post by zenfootball2 on Jun 11, 2022 15:45:34 GMT 1
The problem with dependency on energy from Russia and manufactured goods from China is that while they are cheap and convenient, our purchases hugely empower these countries.. Neither seems willing, or able to have anything other than totalitarian governments either to date, or for the foreseeable future with all the dangers that poses to global security. There is no doubt that we need to become less dependent, at least for certain key things, as soon as possible.   i completely agree , we should look at energy , water, food , oil, gas , and pharmaceutical products security it is irersponsible that we are so dependsant on china and india for our medication you only have to think back to the pandemic when china stoped exports of certain products for there own citizens whilst buying up supplies gloabably .we also need to look at increasing funding for all traning of all proffessions in the nhs were staff who are trained are british , who have to sign an agreement to work in the nhs for a set period of time ,considering the length of time this would take you are looking at least 20 years bearing in mind up to 6 years to train a doctor . Annoy China as Australia did and suffer the economic consequences ,New Zealand is hevily reliant on china and it is there biggest trading partner New Zealand have already run up the white flag www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/04/we-dont-need-to-be-reactive-new-zealand-keeps-faith-in-its-foreign-policy-amid-china-pacific-pushNew Zealand’s foreign minister has defended herself against accusations of complacency in the wake of China’s dramatic push for greater influence in the Pacific region, saying New Zealand does “not need to be reactive to any other agenda from any other country |
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Post by zenfootball2 on Jun 11, 2022 15:48:54 GMT 1
Makes a change from it becoming a Labour v Tory "avenue". I thing we can all agree on becoming more independent and self-sufficient but history will tell you it's not that easy and people will be reluctant to endorse it in practice. The NHS is a good example. For some reason the people who laud the health service and celebrate it's diversity seem ignorant to the morally questionable in-effect 'colonisation' of skilled workers from third world countries. I accept being a GP or medic is not something you can 'learn on the job' but surely some forecasting supported by appropriate funding could ensure that the majority of NHS skilled jobs are recruited for in the UK. The figure is currently 37% for any one that's interested. www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/08/nhs-hiring-more-doctors-from-outside-uk-and-eea-than-inside-for-first-timeIf that figure became 80/90% and we reached a time where British born or British trained GPs were significantly outnumbering that of those from the sub-continent, Africa etc, and the need for skilled immigration was near redundant, how long would it be before someone on the left decries it as being a policy based on colonialist racist attitudes or something of the ilk? Are you mixing up two different things here? I think that article is talking about hospital trusts having to recruit staff from abroad to take salaried positions. GPs are effectively private contractors to the NHS and can earn £100k+ if they become a partner in a practice but working on a salary in an actual hospital is becoming less and less attractive due to student debt and government imposed pay restraint on top of a gruelling training period, hence the pipeline of native Brits wanting to do these jobs is drying up and the UK has to look elsewhere. The solution is surely to cancel or slash student debt for people training to be doctors and increase pay. Anyone know which end of the political spectrum is dead set against doing that? The reality is "the right" have been in power for ten years and are quite comfortable relying on imported labour they haven't had to invest to train because it's in keeping with austerity policies. Not saying "the left" necessarily has a better track record but really not sure how you're trying to blame one end of the political spectrum for this. even when you start with good intentions think dont always work out www.thelancet.com/article/S0140-6736(07)60763-6/fulltext |
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