electrum
Midland League Division Two
Posts: 183
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Post by electrum on May 26, 2022 9:36:41 GMT 1
What claims? The Mail journalist, looking for clicks, said Ten Hag vowed to end City and Liverpool's dominance. He did nothing of the sort. He said every era comes to an end. Nobody sensible can argue that isn't the case. What's this Liverpool dominance of English football anyway? Klopp has been there for almost 7 years, in which time they've won one league title, one FA Cup and one League Cup (both cups being won this season). That's dominance? They're an exceptional team and Klopp's a great manager, I don't dispute that, but City dominate English football - 4 league titles, 1 FA Cup and 5 League Cups in the period Klopp has been in charge of Liverpool. I make that 10-3 in City's favour as far as dominating English football goes. Liverpool are a close second this season (not last), but it's City who have dominated English football for the last several seasons. I can understand United haters assuming Ten Hag will fail because United have got themselves in such a mess, but he's a good appointment. We'll see what happens from here. All this "at least five years behind" talk reminds me of how some people talked about politics. In 2015, Cameron was said to be a certain winner of the next two elections at least. In 2019, Johnson could be PM for as long as he wanted. It's forgotten already that United finished ahead of Liverpool last season. But... injuries .... yeah, they happen but results don't get adjusted for them. Predictions based largely on wishful thinking have a habit of unravelling quickly. I know you're talking about 'domestic' domination but when comparing relative successes of clubs at the levels of City, Liverpool, United, you have to include European competitions. Klopp has taken Liverpool to 3 Champions League finals since he's been there, Pep and City just the 1. Only 1 win so far, admittedly, but still deserves to be included in any comparison. City have been the best English team over the last 10 years or so, certainly 5, no doubt about that, but when looking at how far Utd are behind City and Liverpool, the performances of City domestically and Liverpool in Europe paint a pretty bleak picture for Utd fans. They will bounce back of course, they're too big a club not to, but it's going to take time. Utd fans revelled in the fact that it took Liverpool 30 years to win the league again after their dominance in the 70's and 80's - I doubt it will take Utd quite that long, but it's already 9 years, and I can't see them winning it again in the next few seasons. Of course, it's not just City and Liverpool that Utd have to catch, they look a long way behind Spurs and Chelsea too at this point in time. Interestingly, the common factor seems to be good managers; City, Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea all have one, Utd don't and haven't since Fergie left. So, back on topic....Whether Ten Hag is that manager.....who knows? Unfortunately for him I doubt he'll be given the time that's probably needed.
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Post by venceremos on May 26, 2022 10:25:57 GMT 1
What claims? The Mail journalist, looking for clicks, said Ten Hag vowed to end City and Liverpool's dominance. He did nothing of the sort. He said every era comes to an end. Nobody sensible can argue that isn't the case. What's this Liverpool dominance of English football anyway? Klopp has been there for almost 7 years, in which time they've won one league title, one FA Cup and one League Cup (both cups being won this season). That's dominance? They're an exceptional team and Klopp's a great manager, I don't dispute that, but City dominate English football - 4 league titles, 1 FA Cup and 5 League Cups in the period Klopp has been in charge of Liverpool. I make that 10-3 in City's favour as far as dominating English football goes. Liverpool are a close second this season (not last), but it's City who have dominated English football for the last several seasons. I can understand United haters assuming Ten Hag will fail because United have got themselves in such a mess, but he's a good appointment. We'll see what happens from here. All this "at least five years behind" talk reminds me of how some people talked about politics. In 2015, Cameron was said to be a certain winner of the next two elections at least. In 2019, Johnson could be PM for as long as he wanted. It's forgotten already that United finished ahead of Liverpool last season. But... injuries .... yeah, they happen but results don't get adjusted for them. Predictions based largely on wishful thinking have a habit of unravelling quickly. I know you're talking about 'domestic' domination but when comparing relative successes of clubs at the levels of City, Liverpool, United, you have to include European competitions. Klopp has taken Liverpool to 3 Champions League finals since he's been there, Pep and City just the 1. Only 1 win so far, admittedly, but still deserves to be included in any comparison. City have been the best English team over the last 10 years or so, certainly 5, no doubt about that, but when looking at how far Utd are behind City and Liverpool, the performances of City domestically and Liverpool in Europe paint a pretty bleak picture for Utd fans. They will bounce back of course, they're too big a club not to, but it's going to take time. Utd fans revelled in the fact that it took Liverpool 30 years to win the league again after their dominance in the 70's and 80's - I doubt it will take Utd quite that long, but it's already 9 years, and I can't see them winning it again in the next few seasons. Of course, it's not just City and Liverpool that Utd have to catch, they look a long way behind Spurs and Chelsea too at this point in time. Interestingly, the common factor seems to be good managers; City, Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea all have one, Utd don't and haven't since Fergie left. So, back on topic....Whether Ten Hag is that manager.....who knows? Unfortunately for him I doubt he'll be given the time that's probably needed. You're right, I was talking about the relative domestic domination of City and Liverpool not being in the same category. I don't dispute that Liverpool's European record, recent and historic, is better than any other English club, but domestic dominance was the starting point of this thread. United look a long way behind most teams in the Premier League right now but I think they'll catch up that ground when they reset this summer. It's only City and Liverpool that are a long way ahead. The rest can be caught up much more quickly. Chelsea & Spurs? As dysfunctional as United have been all season, they beat Spurs twice and drew with Chelsea twice. They finished above both of them in each of the previous two seasons. I don't deny that Chelsea and Spurs are in much better shape than United right now, but I don't accept that they're a long way behind those two. Look how quickly Spurs (and Arsenal for that matter) turned their seasons around after disastrous starts. I know it's fashionable to talk about systems and structures and long term strategies, as if football clubs are as slow to change direction as ocean liners, but I don't think Conte's Spurs are building on any particular structural legacy he inherited, do you? Conte's clearly a good manager and you say United haven't had a good manager since Ferguson left. I think that's unfair on the managers they've had. Mourinho is still a top manager - 5 European trophy wins in 5 finals now, the first to win all 3 competitions (which shows he can succeed with clubs at different levels). Moyes is doing an excellent job at West Ham. Van Gaal's career shows he's been a good manager. Mourinho, Van Gaal and even Solskjaer had some success at United, certainly by comparison with last season. That they weren't able to get to the level United had been at says at least as much about the boardroom problems United have had as it does any managerial shortcomings of the individuals, especially in the cases of Mourinho and Van Gaal. It's a hard road back for United, no question, and Ten Hag may not be the one to get them there. But football changes more quickly than some seem to think. He's the right man for a very difficult job and I'm looking forward to seeing how he does.
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Post by Pilch on May 26, 2022 16:17:27 GMT 1
I think we should rename this thread altogether now, "we won it 6 times"
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Post by cheggersdrinkspop on May 26, 2022 20:57:59 GMT 1
I think that Man Utd need to remove Ferguson from the equation as I believe he has alot of sway with the board, and unfortunately for any incoming manager they will need to keep him happy before anyone else. Great manager in his day but coaching practice and styles move on like all things, so always going to be difficult for anyone coming in, such as it was with Bobby Charlton when Ferguson went there first of all.
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Post by venceremos on May 26, 2022 21:32:17 GMT 1
I think that Man Utd need to remove Ferguson from the equation as I believe he has alot of sway with the board, and unfortunately for any incoming manager they will need to keep him happy before anyone else. Great manager in his day but coaching practice and styles move on like all things, so always going to be difficult for anyone coming in, such as it was with Bobby Charlton when Ferguson went there first of all. Ferguson has no significant influence at Old Trafford now. He’s ore of a figurehead. Anyway, today is the 23rd anniversary of one of the genuinely iconic moments in European football. Full steam ahead Barcelona!
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Post by Pilch on May 26, 2022 21:46:20 GMT 1
I think that Man Utd need to remove Ferguson from the equation as I believe he has alot of sway with the board, and unfortunately for any incoming manager they will need to keep him happy before anyone else. Great manager in his day but coaching practice and styles move on like all things, so always going to be difficult for anyone coming in, such as it was with Bobby Charlton when Ferguson went there first of all. pure wisdom here's what I know, Fergie sits in the stand and watches games , he still picks up a huge wage for turning up occasionally and shaking the hand of rich sponsors so lets get rid of him and united defence might start making tackles de gea will make the odd save, the midfield will press and win the ball, someone other than Ronaldo will score it if only they had got rid of him decades ago
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