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Post by block12massive on May 20, 2022 11:15:26 GMT 1
Football violence hasn't peaked and troughed depending on whoever resides in Number 10 so I'd say that's a pretty poor attempt at point scoring. Though I agree there are societal issues at play here and I don't suppose confining people to their house for 12-18 months has particularly helped with people's wellbeing. But there's still this thing called individual responsibility and knowing right from wrong. Is this really true? Surveillance is a major factor. Mass Surveillance didn't really exist in the 60s/70s skinhead/bootboy era but I think the response to hooliganism does become more political from then on. The conservatives were in power from 79 to 97, coinciding with the "casual" era and what most consider the nadir of hooligan violence, including the Heysel and Hillsborough disasters. The parallels with now are actually pretty striking; a period of under investment in public services and inequality during which (then predominantly) working class football fans were effectively allowed to be treated like animals by an administration which turned a blind eye to the shocking state of unsafe, decrepit stadia and appalling treatment of fans by a police force which, by the mid to late 80s, felt like it was more Maggy's private militia than there to protect the public (have a look at some of the stuff around the miner's strike - David Peace's "GB84" is an interesting read if you haven't already read it) until it was far too late and 97 people died. Arguably the Taylor report and the investment of the Murdoch clan via Sky kick-started the process but the advent of widespread mobile phone and Internet usage saw hooliganism spike again in the late 90s / early 00s and the UK didn't really get a grip on it until the Blair government basically clamped down on it hard with draconian sentencing (look up the Battle of Maze Hill; landmark case which basically led to a massive reduction in incidents in the 00s and 10s), huge police presences (anyone who went to a Town v Chester or Wrexham game in the 00s will remember the robocop armies lining the streets) and the expansion of the wider Surveillance culture of the UK at the time into football (the era of cops stood in front of the west stand with handheld cameras). For a long while, hooliganism incidents like those we've seen recently were vanishingly rare because the authorities had built up a pretty infallible reputation for identifying and heavily sentencing those involved. What seems to have happened over the last couple of years is a general loss of fear of consequences. Police are seen as understaffed, underresourced and demoralised. Courts are backed up for years in some cases and there's a general perception you can "get away with stuff". You can see this in the drugs trade, which basically seems to operate with absolute impunity now even in sleepy Shropshire, and in the rise in anti social behaviour at football. Pyro going off at every game now it seems. That would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago. Is it a coincidence that a collapse in police and judiciary numbers and funding and an overall sense of demoralisation in a pice force that evidently doesn't feel like it has the numbers for the job coincides with the back end of 12 years of austerity and an uptick in crime generally and in football after years and years of falling numbers? Most would say it's not rocket science but I expect Gaslighters United over here will have some other explanation. Maybe it's down to the "woke mind virus"? You undermine some perfectly valid albeit somewhat biased and embellished points with your last sentence which I can't make head to tail of but presume it's some sort of pointed remark. It probably sounds like Billy Bragg in your head but comes out sounding like Billy Bunter.
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Post by block12massive on May 20, 2022 11:23:40 GMT 1
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Post by AlisonS on May 20, 2022 11:25:00 GMT 1
I've never quite understood the rule that it's a criminal offence subject to a likely banning order to run on the pitch unless it's in a moment of 'celebration' in which case there are just too many people to punish so it's all good. It's pretty clear nowadays not everyone is intent on running on the pitch to 'celebrate'. And how embarrassing for Everton to think finishing likely 16th is a cause worthy of celebrating. Fair play to Vieira though. I think that scumbag chose the wrong manager to pick on. Seem to remember that finishing 22nd in the fourth tier in May 2000 was the cause of the most joyous and celebratory pitch invasion I have ever been part of! I wouldn’t have picked on Vieira either...
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Post by frankwellshrews on May 20, 2022 11:25:46 GMT 1
Is this really true? Surveillance is a major factor. Mass Surveillance didn't really exist in the 60s/70s skinhead/bootboy era but I think the response to hooliganism does become more political from then on. The conservatives were in power from 79 to 97, coinciding with the "casual" era and what most consider the nadir of hooligan violence, including the Heysel and Hillsborough disasters. The parallels with now are actually pretty striking; a period of under investment in public services and inequality during which (then predominantly) working class football fans were effectively allowed to be treated like animals by an administration which turned a blind eye to the shocking state of unsafe, decrepit stadia and appalling treatment of fans by a police force which, by the mid to late 80s, felt like it was more Maggy's private militia than there to protect the public (have a look at some of the stuff around the miner's strike - David Peace's "GB84" is an interesting read if you haven't already read it) until it was far too late and 97 people died. Arguably the Taylor report and the investment of the Murdoch clan via Sky kick-started the process but the advent of widespread mobile phone and Internet usage saw hooliganism spike again in the late 90s / early 00s and the UK didn't really get a grip on it until the Blair government basically clamped down on it hard with draconian sentencing (look up the Battle of Maze Hill; landmark case which basically led to a massive reduction in incidents in the 00s and 10s), huge police presences (anyone who went to a Town v Chester or Wrexham game in the 00s will remember the robocop armies lining the streets) and the expansion of the wider Surveillance culture of the UK at the time into football (the era of cops stood in front of the west stand with handheld cameras). For a long while, hooliganism incidents like those we've seen recently were vanishingly rare because the authorities had built up a pretty infallible reputation for identifying and heavily sentencing those involved. What seems to have happened over the last couple of years is a general loss of fear of consequences. Police are seen as understaffed, underresourced and demoralised. Courts are backed up for years in some cases and there's a general perception you can "get away with stuff". You can see this in the drugs trade, which basically seems to operate with absolute impunity now even in sleepy Shropshire, and in the rise in anti social behaviour at football. Pyro going off at every game now it seems. That would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago. Is it a coincidence that a collapse in police and judiciary numbers and funding and an overall sense of demoralisation in a pice force that evidently doesn't feel like it has the numbers for the job coincides with the back end of 12 years of austerity and an uptick in crime generally and in football after years and years of falling numbers? Most would say it's not rocket science but I expect Gaslighters United over here will have some other explanation. Maybe it's down to the "woke mind virus"? You undermine some perfectly valid albeit somewhat biased and embellished points with your last sentence which I can't make head to tail of but presume it's some sort of pointed remark. It probably sounds like Billy Bragg in your head but comes out sounding like Billy Bunter. Was referring to Elon Musk's comments about netflix the other week. It's topical but considering your cultural references appear to be stuck in about 1989 I'd forgive you for not following 👍
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Post by frankwellshrews on May 20, 2022 11:28:09 GMT 1
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Post by block12massive on May 20, 2022 11:41:08 GMT 1
Think this thing called a 'pandemic' has something to do with it. In fact if you bothered to read the first paragraph you'd have stumbled across that for yourself. Plus the article you've rushed to reference refers to backlogs in the Crown Court. Football banning order applications (as that is what we were talking about before your tangent) are heard in the Magistrates Court. And since earlier this month Magistrates Courts now have the power to issue prison sentences up to 12 months. Presumably why the Sharp assailant was able to face justice within days.
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Post by Dancin on May 20, 2022 12:28:02 GMT 1
Doesn't Wembley have some sort of horizontal wire system just in front of the first row of seats to stop pitch invasions?
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Post by venceremos on May 20, 2022 12:36:27 GMT 1
The criminal judiciary system is not backlogged because people don't "put their minds to it".
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on May 20, 2022 12:39:26 GMT 1
Not read all through this thread but surprised I cant see any mention of our own Ben Davies after MK 'fans' kicked him after we won at their place, injuring his so he wasnt able to play at Wembley.
Then their said 'fans' looking to head towards our end of the pitch before stewards restrained them.
It's not totally a new thing.
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Post by frankwellshrews on May 20, 2022 12:48:21 GMT 1
Think this thing called a 'pandemic' has something to do with it. In fact if you bothered to read the first paragraph you'd have stumbled across that for yourself. Plus the article you've rushed to reference refers to backlogs in the Crown Court. Football banning order applications (as that is what we were talking about before your tangent) are heard in the Magistrates Court. And since earlier this month Magistrates Courts now have the power to issue prison sentences up to 12 months. Presumably why the Sharp assailant was able to face justice within days. The backlog was at 40k cases pre pandemic and had increased by 23% that year alone. most on here agreed he should have been charged with something much more severe like GBH after the event. A £500 fine seems paltry.
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Post by ssshrew on May 20, 2022 13:31:48 GMT 1
Think this thing called a 'pandemic' has something to do with it. In fact if you bothered to read the first paragraph you'd have stumbled across that for yourself. Plus the article you've rushed to reference refers to backlogs in the Crown Court. Football banning order applications (as that is what we were talking about before your tangent) are heard in the Magistrates Court. And since earlier this month Magistrates Courts now have the power to issue prison sentences up to 12 months. Presumably why the Sharp assailant was able to face justice within days. I think he pleaded guilty too which would have hastened things up.
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Post by Mortgagehound on May 20, 2022 13:48:16 GMT 1
Time to look at Moats
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Post by Bob Rickerton on May 20, 2022 14:56:03 GMT 1
Unless I'm just forgetting negative incidents because they either weren't captured and/or reported as widely at the time (the Ben Davies incident at the Franchise is an example that I forgot) I think there's something interesting in the fact that pitch invasions to celebrate big end of season achievements have been completely commonplace for at least the last decade and have rarely featured any negative side-effects, and yet pretty much every one that's happened in recent weeks has.
I don't know whether it's copycat behaviour, the pandemic turning everyone nuts, a change in policing or a combination of all of them. It's something that clubs and the authorities need to be exploring, either way. But it's a shame that a joyous expression of celebration which can lead to iconic moments (who can forget being on the pitch after Dagenham, Cheltenham, Charlton) look like they might need to be curtailed due to the actions of a mindless few.
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Post by pughywasfree on May 20, 2022 16:32:20 GMT 1
I've never quite understood the rule that it's a criminal offence subject to a likely banning order to run on the pitch unless it's in a moment of 'celebration' in which case there are just too many people to punish so it's all good. It's pretty clear nowadays not everyone is intent on running on the pitch to 'celebrate'. And how embarrassing for Everton to think finishing likely 16th is a cause worthy of celebrating. Fair play to Vieira though. I think that scumbag chose the wrong manager to pick on. I'd love to finish 16th!
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Post by staffordshrew on May 20, 2022 18:10:18 GMT 1
Apparently there a lot of middle class fans on cocaine these days. Was it ecstasy where rivals would have run to each other and hugged them? Seems like they were the good old days now.
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Post by callum on May 20, 2022 18:58:00 GMT 1
Vieira kicking a fan reminds me of Clough getting involved in a spot of bother . Do you remember that little incident ? Can’t remember the outcome without googling it. Some things never change do they , when passions run high and tempers get frayed anything could happen . It’s not right , you would think Managers would remove themselves from likely areas of conflict so that some t**t flicking the V in their face wouldn’t happen. With so much going on over the past week or so I wonder what stance the FA will take. The problem is at Goodison the away team now have to walk across the pitch to get to their changing room.
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Post by Pilch on May 20, 2022 22:50:07 GMT 1
Vieira kicking a fan reminds me of Clough getting involved in a spot of bother . Do you remember that little incident ? Can’t remember the outcome without googling it. Some things never change do they , when passions run high and tempers get frayed anything could happen . It’s not right , you would think Managers would remove themselves from likely areas of conflict so that some t**t flicking the V in their face wouldn’t happen. With so much going on over the past week or so I wonder what stance the FA will take. The problem is at Goodison the away team now have to walk across the pitch to get to their changing room. isn't that the case at every football pitch in the world ? I remember town away to aldershot in 79, the players had to walk through the spectators to get to the pitch, I know as I was in the middle of them as they were coming out, strange ground that, its like its in the middle of a park
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Post by horse01 on May 22, 2022 19:35:59 GMT 1
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Post by Pilch on May 22, 2022 20:05:15 GMT 1
I think it might have been a Liverpool fan actually, plenty of motive
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Post by South Stand Salopian on May 23, 2022 8:37:38 GMT 1
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Post by Chief Inspector Swan on May 23, 2022 8:43:17 GMT 1
The problem is at Goodison the away team now have to walk across the pitch to get to their changing room. isn't that the case at every football pitch in the world ? No
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Post by shrewder on May 23, 2022 9:00:54 GMT 1
Red herring. Depends where the player is stood on the pitch at end of match.
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Post by martinshrew on May 23, 2022 9:33:09 GMT 1
The problem is at Goodison the away team now have to walk across the pitch to get to their changing room. isn't that the case at every football pitch in the world ? I remember town away to aldershot in 79, the players had to walk through the spectators to get to the pitch, I know as I was in the middle of them as they were coming out, strange ground that, its like its in the middle of a park No, most are centre main stand, but the dugouts are opposite corner. It's like our players navigating from the benches to block 13 through a pitch invasion.
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Post by Pilch on May 23, 2022 10:50:32 GMT 1
isn't that the case at every football pitch in the world ? I remember town away to aldershot in 79, the players had to walk through the spectators to get to the pitch, I know as I was in the middle of them as they were coming out, strange ground that, its like its in the middle of a park No, most are centre main stand, but the dugouts are opposite corner. It's like our players navigating from the benches to block 13 through a pitch invasion. but it could mean players are closer to the tunnel too it's all relevant to where they are come the final whistle and where the tunnel is , i don't see a disadvantage in the 'long run'
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Post by staffordshrew on May 24, 2022 21:40:51 GMT 1
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Post by GrizzlyShrew on May 24, 2022 22:44:24 GMT 1
Anyway these pitch invasions must stop - sooner or later it will happen at Old Trafford and one of the fans will be made Man of the Match
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Post by Pilch on May 24, 2022 22:57:00 GMT 1
Anyway these pitch invasions must stop - sooner or later it will happen at Old Trafford and one of the fans will be made Man of the Match wake up, already happened last time united were s**t
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Post by Dancin on May 30, 2022 13:31:10 GMT 1
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Post by davycrockett on May 30, 2022 13:39:00 GMT 1
Anyway these pitch invasions must stop - sooner or later it will happen at Old Trafford and one of the fans will be made Man of the Match wake up, already happened last time united were s**t Penalty against Lorimer but Man U never get them….
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Post by harboroughshrew on May 30, 2022 15:42:01 GMT 1
Perhaps the National league can help show the way here. After the Wrexham-Grimsby game (one of the best and most dramatic games I have seen all season) I did not see any attempt by the jubilant Grimsby fans (or the disappointed Wrexham fans for that matter) to get on the pitch and the Grimsby players were able to celebrate properly in front of their fans.
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