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Post by martinshrew on Feb 24, 2022 10:12:32 GMT 1
"Russian companies, listed on the London Stock Exchange, are plummeting in value.
Sberbank of Russia has lost 74% of its value. Rosneft was down 24%. Gazprom was down 36%. JSC VTB Bank was down 35%.
Russian markets down close to 50%. Russia's dollar linked RTS stock market is down 49%, while the rouble-linked MOEX is down 45%."
Keep smashing them where it hurts, the heaviest of heavy sanctions should now be enforced by all.
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Post by armchairfan on Feb 24, 2022 10:14:59 GMT 1
It would appear that many of us on here, myself included, from widely different ends of the political spectrum, may have misjudged Mr Putin; despite his assurances to the contrary, he has launched an invasion of Ukraine. Whether he is a clever man or not, has been rendered moot: frankly, I doubt whether he is rational. I am sure that there are some "useful idiots", Kremlin apologists, who will repeat the Kremlin line of "NATO expansion" but that is a nonsence: sovereign independent states apply, through the practice of liberal democratic processes, to join that organisation, and it is not for any external power to seek to impose a contrary judgment by military means - it really is as simple as that. Of course, what is far from simple is to judge what should be the West's reaction: deeper and wider sanctions obviously, but it takes time for those to bite where they will hurt most, and Mr Putin will doubtlessly have factored such a reaction into his planning; nonetheless, he must be made to realise that the costs to him will be as high as possible.
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electrum
Midland League Division Two
Posts: 183
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Post by electrum on Feb 24, 2022 10:21:38 GMT 1
The blokes an absolute crank, there is no way in a million years he'll win this. Dunno. I think that will depend on his aims. If for example he means to invade and occupy only the breakaway republics or whether he means to continue on to Kiev. If its the former then I think that would be done extremely quickly followed by years of protracted tension on the border and between Russia and "the West". However, I think that would be accommodated soon enough (as much as it can be) and something most would want to just live with. If its the latter though, I think that will have far reaching consequences and who knows... It seems it’s very much the latter. Anyone who has studied 20th century European history will be very alarmed at the events of the last few weeks, and especially this morning.
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Post by armchairfan on Feb 24, 2022 10:39:53 GMT 1
Dunno. I think that will depend on his aims. If for example he means to invade and occupy only the breakaway republics or whether he means to continue on to Kiev. If its the former then I think that would be done extremely quickly followed by years of protracted tension on the border and between Russia and "the West". However, I think that would be accommodated soon enough (as much as it can be) and something most would want to just live with. If its the latter though, I think that will have far reaching consequences and who knows... It seems it’s very much the latter. Anyone who has studied 20th century European history will be very alarmed at the events of the last few weeks, and especially this morning. Earlier on this thread, the situation was described as "a useful distraction" from Mr Johnson's domestic troubles; somewhat more serious now in light of this morning's events, methinks.
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Post by TOP MONNER on Feb 24, 2022 10:42:31 GMT 1
Mission creep has become a military invasion overnight.
The alarming speed in which decades of diplomacy can be undone is frightening.
Johnson apparently doing a televised announcement this morning.
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 24, 2022 10:59:57 GMT 1
A full scale NATO defense of Ukraine wouldn't be the worst thing in my opinion. Russia needs to suffer a damaging, long lasting and heavy defeat here, there should be no other outcome allowed.
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Post by TOP MONNER on Feb 24, 2022 11:08:16 GMT 1
What was the situation with the Russian military invading the North West of Ukraine from the Belarus border?
While our attention was on the Donbass region, how were 30,000 troops allowed to congregate in that area?
Serious sanctions need to be ordered against Belarus as well.
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Post by staffordshrew on Feb 24, 2022 11:12:19 GMT 1
The closest clue I can find to Putin's intentions is: www.rt.com/russia/550271-putin-doctrine-foreign-policy/Chilling. The fool Ben Wallace seemingly talking about military action. No way, but hit Russia hard, very hard, with sanctions. For me, the price of oil can go up, the price of bread can go up, but we have to do what we have to do to limit Putin's ability. I note the insergence was preceeded with mis-information and cyber attacks (blamed on "hackers"), perhaps Ben Wallace should step away from history and look at modern tactics? Are there any "hackers" up to the job of limiting Russian internet capability?
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Post by staffordshrew on Feb 24, 2022 11:17:36 GMT 1
A full scale NATO defense of Ukraine wouldn't be the worst thing in my opinion. Russia needs to suffer a damaging, long lasting and heavy defeat here, there should be no other outcome allowed. That's out. Putin's only stepped up the action when he saw that America hasn't got the stomach for putting troops anywhere. I think he watched Afghanistan being ditched and then falling in days to the Taliban and thought, now's the time.
But the West do need to supply the parts and the money to help Ukraine defend and cut off as much as possible of Russia's money.
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Post by staffordshrew on Feb 24, 2022 11:25:03 GMT 1
It seems it’s very much the latter. Anyone who has studied 20th century European history will be very alarmed at the events of the last few weeks, and especially this morning. Earlier on this thread, the situation was described as "a useful distraction" from Mr Johnson's domestic troubles; somewhat more serious now in light of this morning's events, methinks. The PM should have gone months ago. We now have a clown in charge when we need a ringmaster.
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Post by kenwood on Feb 24, 2022 11:26:06 GMT 1
Like armchairfan I too misjudged Putin , never really thought that he would have his military invade Ukraine . How wrong were we. The conversation now is whether he will stop and that his “ military operation in the Donbass “ will be the limit of his exploitation . There is a real fear from what I have heard and seen this morning on news reports that Putin may have it in mind to depose the government in Ukraine , in effect take back the country into Russia . How frightening is that in the present climate . What also worries me is the madman in Belarus . Putin and Lukashenko are cut from the same cloth . Very worrying times , will Ukraine be able to stand firm under such military pressure from Russia .
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Post by camdenshrew on Feb 24, 2022 11:28:47 GMT 1
It would appear that many of us on here, myself included, from widely different ends of the political spectrum, may have misjudged Mr Putin; despite his assurances to the contrary, he has launched an invasion of Ukraine. Whether he is a clever man or not, has been rendered moot: frankly, I doubt whether he is rational. I am sure that there are some "useful idiots", Kremlin apologists, who will repeat the Kremlin line of "NATO expansion" but that is a nonsence: sovereign independent states apply, through the practice of liberal democratic processes, to join that organisation, and it is not for any external power to seek to impose a contrary judgment by military means - it really is as simple as that. Of course, what is far from simple is to judge what should be the West's reaction: deeper and wider sanctions obviously, but it takes time for those to bite where they will hurt most, and Mr Putin will doubtlessly have factored such a reaction into his planning; nonetheless, he must be made to realise that the costs to him will be as high as possible. Putin has invaded Georgia, Crimea and has been bombing civilians, schools and hospitals in Syria for years. And let's not forget the chemical weapons attacks on our soil in London and Salisbury. All were met with inadequate responses. It's no wonder he thought he could get away with this.
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Post by staffordshrew on Feb 24, 2022 11:34:12 GMT 1
This paragraph from the RT article www.rt.com/russia/550271-putin-doctrine-foreign-policy/provides a clue as to what's going on and why NATO should not wade in - we need to be smart in the way we support the Ukraine people: "Russia maintains it isn’t going to attack anyone or blow them up. It simply doesn’t need to. The outside world provides Russia with more and more geopolitical opportunities for medium-term development as it is. With one big exception. NATO’s expansion and formal or informal inclusion of Ukraine poses a risk to the country’s security that Moscow simply won’t accept".
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Post by kenwood on Feb 24, 2022 11:42:59 GMT 1
It would appear that many of us on here, myself included, from widely different ends of the political spectrum, may have misjudged Mr Putin; despite his assurances to the contrary, he has launched an invasion of Ukraine. Whether he is a clever man or not, has been rendered moot: frankly, I doubt whether he is rational. I am sure that there are some "useful idiots", Kremlin apologists, who will repeat the Kremlin line of "NATO expansion" but that is a nonsence: sovereign independent states apply, through the practice of liberal democratic processes, to join that organisation, and it is not for any external power to seek to impose a contrary judgment by military means - it really is as simple as that. Of course, what is far from simple is to judge what should be the West's reaction: deeper and wider sanctions obviously, but it takes time for those to bite where they will hurt most, and Mr Putin will doubtlessly have factored such a reaction into his planning; nonetheless, he must be made to realise that the costs to him will be as high as possible. Putin has invaded Georgia, Crimea and has been bombing civilians, schools and hospitals in Syria for years. And let's not forget the chemical weapons attacks on our soil in London and Salisbury. All were met with inadequate responses. It's no wonder he thought he could get away with this. I wouldn’t disagree , but this is on a different level . What really worries me is how far will this invasion go. Will it mean boots on the ground from Ukraines allies . Yes, I know they are not part of NATO , not officially but contribute toward NATO missions . How far will we be involved . My biggest fear is whether this conflict will be limited to conventional weapons . I say this because I think Putin has lost the plot and as you say up to now he has been met with inadequate responses . He is capable of anything .
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electrum
Midland League Division Two
Posts: 183
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Post by electrum on Feb 24, 2022 11:49:42 GMT 1
There is a real fear from what I have heard and seen this morning on news reports that Putin may have it in mind to depose the government in Ukraine , in effect take back the country into Russia . Not just did he have that in mind, he is doing it. Now. Not even the second largest army in Europe, (yes the Ukrainian army) will be able to stop him. Putin will have total control of Ukraine within 10-14 days, possibly sooner once Kiev falls and without other nations deploying ground or air forces (which they won’t) nobody will stop him. The big question is whether he stops there. In the short term he will, for sure, but longer term? Who knows.
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Post by armchairfan on Feb 24, 2022 11:53:49 GMT 1
This paragraph from the RT article www.rt.com/russia/550271-putin-doctrine-foreign-policy/provides a clue as to what's going on and why NATO should not wade in - we need to be smart in the way we support the Ukraine people: "Russia maintains it isn’t going to attack anyone or blow them up. It simply doesn’t need to. The outside world provides Russia with more and more geopolitical opportunities for medium-term development as it is. With one big exception. NATO’s expansion and formal or informal inclusion of Ukraine poses a risk to the country’s security that Moscow simply won’t accept". The two opening sentences of that paragraph do indeed provide us with a clue: RT's complete, total and absolute detachment from reality - Russia HAS invaded, and whether or not it needed to is very much a post-facto irrelevance.
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Post by ssshrew on Feb 24, 2022 11:58:55 GMT 1
There is a real fear from what I have heard and seen this morning on news reports that Putin may have it in mind to depose the government in Ukraine , in effect take back the country into Russia . Not just did he have that in mind, he is doing it. Now. Not even the second largest army in Europe, (yes the Ukrainian army) will be able to stop him. Putin will have total control of Ukraine within 10-14 days, possibly sooner once Kiev falls and without other nations deploying ground or air forces (which they won’t) nobody will stop him. The big question is whether he stops there. In the short term he will, for sure, but longer term? Who knows. Certainly we know people in Romania who live near to the border with Ukraine who are very worried about the future.
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Post by staffordshrew on Feb 24, 2022 12:04:39 GMT 1
This paragraph from the RT article www.rt.com/russia/550271-putin-doctrine-foreign-policy/provides a clue as to what's going on and why NATO should not wade in - we need to be smart in the way we support the Ukraine people: "Russia maintains it isn’t going to attack anyone or blow them up. It simply doesn’t need to. The outside world provides Russia with more and more geopolitical opportunities for medium-term development as it is. With one big exception. NATO’s expansion and formal or informal inclusion of Ukraine poses a risk to the country’s security that Moscow simply won’t accept". The two opening sentences of that paragraph do indeed provide us with a clue: RT's complete, total and absolute detachment from reality - Russia HAS invaded, and whether or not it needed to is very much a post-facto irrelevance. It's not meant to be the latest news, it's an article written by By Professor Sergey Karaganov, honorary chairman of Russia’s Council on Foreign and Defense Policy, and academic supervisor at the School of International Economics and Foreign Affairs Higher School - of Economics (HSE) in Moscow, therefore, we can assume, someone presenting the Putin line of thinking.
The latest news on RT is "NATO has announced the deployment of ‘additional defensive land and air forces’ to the eastern part of the bloc and an increase in the readiness of all its forces ‘to respond to all contingencies,’ in light of the Russian military ‘operation’ in Ukraine".
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Post by armchairfan on Feb 24, 2022 12:10:50 GMT 1
The two opening sentences of that paragraph do indeed provide us with a clue: RT's complete, total and absolute detachment from reality - Russia HAS invaded, and whether or not it needed to is very much a post-facto irrelevance. It's not meant to be the latest news, it's an article written by By Professor Sergey Karaganov, honorary chairman of Russia’s Council on Foreign and Defense Policy, and academic supervisor at the School of International Economics and Foreign Affairs Higher School - of Economics (HSE) in Moscow, therefore, we can assume, someone presenting the Putin line of thinking.
The latest news on RT is "NATO has announced the deployment of ‘additional defensive land and air forces’ to the eastern part of the bloc and an increase in the readiness of all its forces ‘to respond to all contingencies,’ in light of the Russian military ‘operation’ in Ukraine".
The article is dated 23rd February, which makes it fairly contemporary, does it not? Irrespective of the date, however, my point regarding RT stands.
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Post by staffordshrew on Feb 24, 2022 12:16:40 GMT 1
It's not meant to be the latest news, it's an article written by By Professor Sergey Karaganov, honorary chairman of Russia’s Council on Foreign and Defense Policy, and academic supervisor at the School of International Economics and Foreign Affairs Higher School - of Economics (HSE) in Moscow, therefore, we can assume, someone presenting the Putin line of thinking.
The latest news on RT is "NATO has announced the deployment of ‘additional defensive land and air forces’ to the eastern part of the bloc and an increase in the readiness of all its forces ‘to respond to all contingencies,’ in light of the Russian military ‘operation’ in Ukraine".
The article is dated 23rd February, which makes it fairly contemporary, does it not? Irrespective of the date, however, my point regarding RT stands. Is your point that it's best to stick your head in the sand and think like a Westerner?
My point is that RT is a Russian mouthpiece and I want to know what they think they are up to.
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Post by armchairfan on Feb 24, 2022 12:22:53 GMT 1
The article is dated 23rd February, which makes it fairly contemporary, does it not? Irrespective of the date, however, my point regarding RT stands. Is your point that it's best to stick your head in the sand and think like a Westerner?
My point is that RT is a Russian mouthpiece and I want to know what they think they are up to.
I am not "sticking my head in the sand" as you indelicately suggest: I agree that RT is a Kremlin mouthpiece, and whilst it is useful to get a handle upon the Kremlin view, that shouldn't exclude any criticism of it.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Feb 24, 2022 12:29:44 GMT 1
I am sure that there are some "useful idiots", Kremlin apologists, who will repeat the Kremlin line of "NATO expansion" but that is a nonsence: sovereign independent states apply, through the practice of liberal democratic processes, to join that organisation, and it is not for any external power to seek to impose a contrary judgment by military means - it really is as simple as that. I suppose "useful idiots" is one way of putting it. Thankfully they never made it into government and thankfully they no longer make up the Labour front bench. Although looking ahead...
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 24, 2022 12:33:42 GMT 1
I am sure that there are some "useful idiots", Kremlin apologists, who will repeat the Kremlin line of "NATO expansion" but that is a nonsence: sovereign independent states apply, through the practice of liberal democratic processes, to join that organisation, and it is not for any external power to seek to impose a contrary judgment by military means - it really is as simple as that. I suppose "useful idiots" is one way of putting it. Thankfully they never made it into government and thankfully they no longer make up the Labour front bench. Although looking ahead... Chilling.
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Post by armchairfan on Feb 24, 2022 12:47:45 GMT 1
I suppose "useful idiots" is one way of putting it. Thankfully they never made it into government and thankfully they no longer make up the Labour front bench. Although looking ahead... Chilling. Ahhh - the sublime pure innocence of youth....
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Post by staffordshrew on Feb 24, 2022 12:48:10 GMT 1
I suppose "useful idiots" is one way of putting it. Thankfully they never made it into government and thankfully they no longer make up the Labour front bench. Chilling. Let's not get lazy, dredging up opposing views from Conservative and Labour fringes. Now is the time for a united front.
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Post by TOP MONNER on Feb 24, 2022 12:49:56 GMT 1
The closest clue I can find to Putin's intentions is: www.rt.com/russia/550271-putin-doctrine-foreign-policy/Chilling. The fool Ben Wallace seemingly talking about military action. No way, but hit Russia hard, very hard, with sanctions. For me, the price of oil can go up, the price of bread can go up, but we have to do what we have to do to limit Putin's ability. I note the insergence was preceeded with mis-information and cyber attacks (blamed on "hackers"), perhaps Ben Wallace should step away from history and look at modern tactics? Are there any "hackers" up to the job of limiting Russian internet capability? Earlier on this thread, the situation was described as "a useful distraction" from Mr Johnson's domestic troubles; somewhat more serious now in light of this morning's events, methinks. The PM should have gone months ago. We now have a clown in charge when we need a ringmaster. Let's not get lazy, dredging up opposing views from Conservative and Labour frindges. Now is the time for a united front. Maybe practicing what you preach would be a start.
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Post by venceremos on Feb 24, 2022 12:55:04 GMT 1
There is a real fear from what I have heard and seen this morning on news reports that Putin may have it in mind to depose the government in Ukraine , in effect take back the country into Russia . Not just did he have that in mind, he is doing it. Now. Not even the second largest army in Europe, (yes the Ukrainian army) will be able to stop him. Putin will have total control of Ukraine within 10-14 days, possibly sooner once Kiev falls and without other nations deploying ground or air forces (which they won’t) nobody will stop him. The big question is whether he stops there. In the short term he will, for sure, but longer term? Who knows. I was wrong in thinking Putin wouldn't go as far as he has but I don't believe he has any ambitions to go further than Ukraine, if indeed he intends to occupy the whole of the country. The conflict won't be over in a couple of weeks though. The Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, ostensibly in support of the Afghan government, resulted in a war that lasted almost a decade and ended in ignominious withdrawal by the USSR. Soviet military forces seized control immediately but the fighting dragged on, with huge loss of life on all sides. It's widely thought that the Soviet failure in Afghanistan was a key contributory factor in the collapse of the USSR within 3 years of its withdrawal from Afghanistan. Geographically, Ukraine is a huge country of 42m people. Invasion and subjugation aren't the same thing. Putin is risking Russia becoming embroiled in a conflict that could outlast him - and he's changed the rules to enable him to stay in power until 2036. I think the prospect of direct NATO military involvement remains very small. Ukraine isn't a NATO member and there is no treaty obligation to defend it. But the west and its allies will certainly supply weapons and support to the Ukrainian military and, if it comes to that, to Ukrainian 'rebels' fighting a Russian puppet government. Meanwhile, the UK needs to de-Russify itself. We've made it easier for Putin by enabling Russian dirty money to be laundered here and influence bought. That has to end now, whatever the cost to political parties, UK businesses - or football clubs! None of this "but they're on the electoral register so it's ok" collusion. In part we, and other western countries, are culpable in what's happening. Too many turned a blind eye to Russian interference and its evident strategy of dividing and weakening Europe because they liked the short term political gains for them that it helped to bring.
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Post by staffordshrew on Feb 24, 2022 12:55:23 GMT 1
The closest clue I can find to Putin's intentions is: www.rt.com/russia/550271-putin-doctrine-foreign-policy/Chilling. The fool Ben Wallace seemingly talking about military action. No way, but hit Russia hard, very hard, with sanctions. For me, the price of oil can go up, the price of bread can go up, but we have to do what we have to do to limit Putin's ability. I note the insergence was preceeded with mis-information and cyber attacks (blamed on "hackers"), perhaps Ben Wallace should step away from history and look at modern tactics? Are there any "hackers" up to the job of limiting Russian internet capability? The PM should have gone months ago. We now have a clown in charge when we need a ringmaster. Let's not get lazy, dredging up opposing views from Conservative and Labour frindges. Now is the time for a united front. Maybe practicing what you preach would be a start. In what way am I dredging up opposing views from Conservative and Labour when a lot of good, honest, Conservatives think Boris should have gone?
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 24, 2022 12:56:04 GMT 1
I'm calling this early. Putin is actually insane, he is not a man in control of his own mind, he's lost the plot.
I think this will be proven in time.
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Post by martinshrew on Feb 24, 2022 12:58:29 GMT 1
Maybe practicing what you preach would be a start. In what way am I dredging up opposing views from Conservative and Labour when a lot of good, honest, Conservatives think Boris should have gone? Now is the time for a united front.
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