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Post by northwestman on Oct 18, 2021 16:21:47 GMT 1
First, there was Covid, which may be deemed to be the moment that the locked-down masses of the West recognised the superiority of authoritarianism over democracy. Then came COP26, the conference at which the West agreed to its own economic self-destruction.
Tomorrow, we will find out how the government proposes to decarbonise our central heating. It looks as if new gas boilers will be banned by 2035, to be replaced either by heat pumps – which homeowners will be enticed to install with bungs of £5000 a time – or hydrogen boilers. There is no guarantee that the former will work effectively in the eight million British homes with solid walls – many of them modest terraced homes in former Red Wall seats. As for hydrogen boilers the government is planning, initially at least, to power them with ‘blue hydrogen’ manufactured from natural gas. It stands to reason that this will increase the cost of heating a property – you cannot convert one fuel into another fuel without adding expense.
The government’s heat strategy looks like being the same old story: the poor, through levies on their gas bills, will subsidise the rich. As for the ‘green jobs’ we are promised, they will be whisked away to Asia. It will be Chinese factories that end up manufacturing our heat pumps and hydrogen boilers – just as it is they who have won the lion’s share of the wind turbine business, with seven of the top ten manufacturers based in the country. Why does anyone expect it to be any different when UK manufacturers are saddled not just with higher labour costs but with energy bills swelled by punitive green levies? The biggest industrial users pay 84 per cent more for their electricity than even their counterparts in the EU. While we are condemning our industries to a future of pricey and intermittent green energy, the Chinese government last week made it clear that energy security will come above cutting carbon emissions – that it will carry on building coal plants, albeit ones that are a little cleaner than before. Yes, your hydrogen boiler, like your local wind farm, will be made courtesy of copious quantities of Chinese coal.
Meanwhile, the Chinese government is doing all it can to exploit the desperation of the West to get it to sign up to green pledges. It has demanded that the whole issue be discussed in the wider political context. Thus the West has gone quiet on the fate of the Uighurs and the final death of democracy in Hong Kong. Neither has the US – which used to rattle sabres whenever the Soviets upped the ante in the arms race – raised the least objection to the news that China flew a hypersonic glide missile around the world in August: a slower missile which could have the ability to penetrate America’s anti-missile shield.
In return for the silence, China has agreed to set a few carbon-reduction targets. But don’t expect too much. The country is already rowing back on its loose aspiration to reach Net Zero by 2060, suggesting last week that the target might be relaxed. Its more immediate carbon-reduction targets, by contrast, are couched in terms of reducing emissions per unit of GDP – in other words it is making it clear that it will not sacrifice an ounce of economic growth in order to go green.
President Xi Jinping, we learned last week, will not be travelling to Cop26. No wonder he doesn’t want to come. He wouldn’t be able to stop himself laughing at how he has already turned the event to his advantage.
Ross Clark. Daily Telegraph.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Oct 18, 2021 16:32:49 GMT 1
that sums up the stupidity of the west and our incompetent goverment, gas prices going through the roof o i know we will use it to make hydrogen, instead they could fund this earthshotprize.org/london-2021/the-earthshot-prize-winners-finalists/climate/"Born in a climate-change affected South Pacific Island, Vaitea Cowan co-founded Enapter to turn back the tide. Just three years on, its green hydrogen technology could change the way we power our world. We have made huge advances in renewable energy. But we can still go further. With 30% of our energy already renewable, we need to focus on the 70% that remains: non-renewable energy that powers everything from industry to transport. Enapter provides a clean alternative. Its AEM Electrolyser technology turns renewable electricity into emission-free hydrogen gas. Developed quicker and cheaper than once thought possible, the technology already fuels cars and planes, powers industry and heats homes. This is just the start. Funding from winning The Earthshot Prize would help scale mass production, which is planned to begin in 2022, while growing the team faster and funding further research and development. By 2050, Enapter’s vision is to account for 10% of the world’s hydrogen generation."
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Post by zenfootball2 on Oct 18, 2021 16:33:58 GMT 1
yet another example of this countrys inability to to have strategic long tems plans instead we have the clown boris making it up on the back of a fag packet.
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Post by northwestman on Oct 18, 2021 16:37:15 GMT 1
yet another example of this countrys inability to to have strategic long tems plans instead we have the clown boris making it up on the back of a fag packet. Ah, but he loves the photo opportunities.
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Post by shrewder on Oct 18, 2021 16:46:45 GMT 1
Firmly believe that the biggest contributer to climate change is the World's relentless population growth. All the efforts to slow down climate change will I believe count for nothing when looked at in the distant future against what the population will have grown to by then and the subsequent damage that will have done to the earth's climate.
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Post by northwestman on Oct 18, 2021 16:58:06 GMT 1
You can ask people to make concessions in their everyday behaviour or some sacrifices in their lifestyle choices for the good of The Planet. But if you mess with their livelihoods or deprive their families of basic necessities like affordable fuel and food, you will enter the valley of electoral death.
What we are now seeing before our eyes is a deliberate decision to enact policies which will – at least in the short and medium term (which is to say, for the lifespan of most adults) – raise the cost of consuming those things which are essential to modern life.
Greta Thunberg, in her latest pronouncement, condemns Britain for having initiated the Industrial Revolution, that momentous series of innovations which made present-day comforts and mass prosperity possible. To get things into some sort of perspective, could the more astute political strategists in Downing Street ask themselves whether voters are more likely to be concerned about the outcome of the Cop26 climate change summit – or the terrifying increase in their energy bills? And will they believe that the Government should be making Britain’s responsibility for global warming its top priority, as opposed, say, to the failings of public sector services like the availability of GP appointments?
Janet Daley. Daily Telegraph.
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Post by northwestman on Oct 18, 2021 17:04:04 GMT 1
At least Sunak is aware of the costs. www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/16/treasury-leak-reveals-rift-between-johnson-and-sunak-over-costs-of-zero-carbon-economyConfidential documents leaked to the Observer reveal an extraordinary rift between Boris Johnson and his chancellor, Rishi Sunak, over the potential economic effects of moving towards a zero-carbon economy, with just weeks to go before the crucial Cop26 climate summit. As Johnson prepares to position the UK at the head of global efforts to combat climate change and curb greenhouse gas emissions as host of the Glasgow Cop26 meeting, the documents show the Treasury is warning of serious economic damage to the UK economy and future tax rises if the UK overspends on, or misdirects, green investment.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 18, 2021 18:22:20 GMT 1
I wonder if Sunak has anything constructive to bring to the subject?
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Post by venceremos on Oct 18, 2021 18:39:20 GMT 1
Those Telegraph articles are fine examples of the short term thinking that got us into this mess - and perpetuates it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2021 19:15:34 GMT 1
Any chance of an end to copy and pasting full articles from the Torygraph?
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Post by zenfootball2 on Oct 18, 2021 19:24:21 GMT 1
we need a few by elections for the conservatives to get stuffed so calmer heads can prevail, unfortently will the voters do it ,as unbelivably the conservatives had a 10 point lead in the last poll. pherhaps having to wait 3 weeks to get a GP to call you , the mess with petrol stations, not enough drivers and sky high utility bills might focus there minds, as labour lost to the slogan labour is not working, they could save money from a pr firm and just rebrand it to the conservatives are not working .
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 18, 2021 19:33:03 GMT 1
Any chance of an end to copy and pasting full articles from the Torygraph? It makes a change from the Grauniad, I think....anyway, I haven't bought any newspaper since I retired.
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 18, 2021 19:39:40 GMT 1
Those Telegraph articles are fine examples of the short term thinking that got us into this mess - and perpetuates it. For many reasons, you have a point, but I think that "short-term thinking" is the very high price we pay for our Democracy....I would be open to alternatives....how about an authoritarian one-party State as a viable option... does such a successful State exist now....or has it ever?
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Post by pughywasfree on Oct 18, 2021 20:04:28 GMT 1
What a time to be alive!!
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 18, 2021 20:42:37 GMT 1
What a time to be alive!! Given the relatively short human lifespan, you too may be guilty of "short termism", but we're all stuck with that ...lol
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Post by servernaside on Oct 18, 2021 20:45:00 GMT 1
we need a few by elections for the conservatives to get stuffed so calmer heads can prevail, unfortently will the voters do it ,as unbelivably the conservatives had a 10 point lead in the last poll. pherhaps having to wait 3 weeks to get a GP to call you , the mess with petrol stations, not enough drivers and sky high utility bills might focus there minds, as labour lost to the slogan labour is not working, they could save money from a pr firm and just rebrand it to the conservatives are not working . Petrol stations? drivers? utility bills? All the fault of the government? Nothing of course to do with irresponsible media scaremongering, international oil and gas prices over which the government has no control and the ongoing effects of the pandemic on global supply chains. Neither wonder the Labour Party will never get elected if their members think the way you do.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 18, 2021 20:57:57 GMT 1
The solution would require more democracy, transparency and accountability not less. Which is not the least of the reasons why there are no politically acceptable solutions.
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Post by northwestman on Oct 19, 2021 9:00:03 GMT 1
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10105157/Blueprint-green-UK-ban-gas-boilers-2035-Ministers-push-ahead-eco-drive.htmlJust 90,000 UK households will get vouchers to help shoulder the growing cost of removing their gas boilers as Ministers commit to banning the sale of conventional gas boilers from 2035. Boris Johnson is pressing ahead with Net Zero plans to stop the installation of gas boilers in the next 15 years, with families encouraged to install low-carbon heating systems from April with £5,000 grants set to cost taxpayers in England and Wales at least £450million in total. However, the funding will allow just 90,000 heat pump installations over three years - far short of the Prime Minister's goal of 600,000 a year by 2028. Conservatives are already starting to ask whether the vouchers will prove impactful if just a fraction of the country can benefit, with concerns that people who had already planned to switch will mainly benefit from the scheme. As the UK's skills shortage hits all areas of British life, Charlie Mullins from Pimlico Plumbers, believes putting new energy sources into 30million-plus homes 'would keep the country's current crop of heating engineers busy for a hundred years'. There are also major questions about how some of these new solutions such as ground source heat pumps, can work for the millions of small homes and flats in Britain's cities because they need a hole between 50ft and 300ft deep - or long trenches measuring around 7,000sqft in the garden or grounds. And cheaper alternatives such as solar panels are not as dear, but Britain's changeable weather means they are simply not as reliable. Ministers say that householders will not be forced to get rid of their existing gas boilers, and they hope the price of green alternatives will have come down by the time the time the ban on new boilers is introduced in 2035.
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Post by davycrockett on Oct 19, 2021 9:15:44 GMT 1
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10105157/Blueprint-green-UK-ban-gas-boilers-2035-Ministers-push-ahead-eco-drive.htmlJust 90,000 UK households will get vouchers to help shoulder the growing cost of removing their gas boilers as Ministers commit to banning the sale of conventional gas boilers from 2035. Boris Johnson is pressing ahead with Net Zero plans to stop the installation of gas boilers in the next 15 years, with families encouraged to install low-carbon heating systems from April with £5,000 grants set to cost taxpayers in England and Wales at least £450million in total. However, the funding will allow just 90,000 heat pump installations over three years - far short of the Prime Minister's goal of 600,000 a year by 2028. Conservatives are already starting to ask whether the vouchers will prove impactful if just a fraction of the country can benefit, with concerns that people who had already planned to switch will mainly benefit from the scheme. As the UK's skills shortage hits all areas of British life, Charlie Mullins from Pimlico Plumbers, believes putting new energy sources into 30million-plus homes 'would keep the country's current crop of heating engineers busy for a hundred years'. There are also major questions about how some of these new solutions such as ground source heat pumps, can work for the millions of small homes and flats in Britain's cities because they need a hole between 50ft and 300ft deep - or long trenches measuring around 7,000sqft in the garden or grounds. And cheaper alternatives such as solar panels are not as dear, but Britain's changeable weather means they are simply not as reliable. Ministers say that householders will not be forced to get rid of their existing gas boilers, and they hope the price of green alternatives will have come down by the time the time the ban on new boilers is introduced in 2035. You need the space and only really suitable for new builds but you don’t need a deep hole. Your not harvesting heat from the center of the earth 😂 HOW MUCH SPACE IS NEEDED FOR HORIZONTAL GROUND LOOPS? Generally for horizontal ground loops (or slinkies) trenches are 100 metres long and 1-2 metres deep, these will hold around 200 metres of pipe which run 100 metres away from the property and 100 metres back. Depending on the size of your property and the heat load it requires will affect how many trenches you require. On average the surface area of land required is approximately 2.5 times the square meterage of the house.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Oct 19, 2021 9:34:01 GMT 1
Ministers say that householders will not be forced to get rid of their existing gas boilers, and they hope the price of green alternatives will have come down by the time the time the ban on new boilers is introduced in 2035. I guess that's the crux of it isn't it. New technology does tend to be expensive but then comes down in price over time. Perhaps the initial installations bring about enough development to bring that about.
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 19, 2021 10:01:25 GMT 1
The solution would require more democracy, transparency and accountability not less. Which is not the least of the reasons why there are no politically acceptable solutions. Not even for you?
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Oct 19, 2021 11:01:39 GMT 1
Looking at buying a new build myself and I'm amazed that it isn't policy for a new build to come with either Solar Panels or ground source heat pumps - prices are already extortionate enough and you're not telling me they couldn't stomach an extra few thousand to add solar panels to each new build.
I believe it's already a policy in Wales, might be for larger houses though.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Oct 19, 2021 11:29:56 GMT 1
Looking at buying a new build myself and I'm amazed that it isn't policy for a new build to come with either Solar Panels or ground source heat pumps - prices are already extortionate enough and you're not telling me they couldn't stomach an extra few thousand to add solar panels to each new build. I believe it's already a policy in Wales, might be for larger houses though. untill they make it the law they wont do it, in one of the welsh projects housholders saw there monthly energy bills come down from £140 to £37 a month.this country is so far behind in starting these devleopments.whilst passive houses cost aproximetly 10 % more to build over time you get your money back by having smaller energy bills th norm is a 75% reduction whilst helping the planet and having a nicer house to live in.the problem for uk house owners is the build quality is poor, the energy insulation is not good enough and many houses are hot in the sumer and cold in the winter, www.thermalearth.co.uk/blog/fossil-fuel-heating-ban-welsh-social-housing"Wednesday 18th August, 2021 On Tuesday 17th August, the Welsh government published a new statement confirming that fossil fuel heating will be banned from installation in new build social houses in Wales from the 1st October this year. The new rule comes as a response to the climate emergency and the ambitious goal to reach carbon net zero by 2050. The ambition is that private developers will follow this new initiave named 'Welsh Development Quality Requirements 2021 - Creating Beautiful Homes and Spaces' as soon as 2025, which means that developers currently in the planning stage now, should already be considering renewable energy for the homes they build in the next few years to ensure they are future-proof."
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Post by venceremos on Oct 19, 2021 11:33:54 GMT 1
Any chance of an end to copy and pasting full articles from the Torygraph? I'm happy they're posted. I'd never buy the Telegraph so wouldn't otherwise see them, and it's instructive to read alternative viewpoints - helps inform my own thinking.
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Post by venceremos on Oct 19, 2021 11:39:20 GMT 1
we need a few by elections for the conservatives to get stuffed so calmer heads can prevail, unfortently will the voters do it ,as unbelivably the conservatives had a 10 point lead in the last poll. pherhaps having to wait 3 weeks to get a GP to call you , the mess with petrol stations, not enough drivers and sky high utility bills might focus there minds, as labour lost to the slogan labour is not working, they could save money from a pr firm and just rebrand it to the conservatives are not working . Petrol stations? drivers? utility bills? All the fault of the government? Nothing of course to do with irresponsible media scaremongering, international oil and gas prices over which the government has no control and the ongoing effects of the pandemic on global supply chains. Not all, but largely. The government tied its own hands which left it less able to respond to these problems than other countries, which haven't had queues (and fights) at petrol stations or empty shelves in shops. I know you expect the media to be uncritical cheerleaders for Tory governments - and. let's face it, most of them usually are - but the suggestion that it's all someone else's fault and the government couldn't have responded better is risible.
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Post by servernaside on Oct 19, 2021 11:45:29 GMT 1
Petrol stations? drivers? utility bills? All the fault of the government? Nothing of course to do with irresponsible media scaremongering, international oil and gas prices over which the government has no control and the ongoing effects of the pandemic on global supply chains. Not all, but largely. The government tied its own hands which left it less able to respond to these problems than other countries, which haven't had queues (and fights) at petrol stations or empty shelves in shops. I know you expect the media to be uncritical cheerleaders for Tory governments - and. let's face it, most of them usually are - but the suggestion that it's all someone else's fault and the government couldn't have responded better is risible. I don't expect the media to be cheerleaders for anyone, but neither do I expect them to deliberately create anxiety and panic among certain sections of the population regarding alleged shortages of fuel, food, toys and turkey at Christmas etc. etc. etc. There never was a shortage of petrol or diesel during the past few months, the panic at the pumps was entirely generated by loose and irresponsible media talk.
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Post by venceremos on Oct 19, 2021 11:56:36 GMT 1
Not all, but largely. The government tied its own hands which left it less able to respond to these problems than other countries, which haven't had queues (and fights) at petrol stations or empty shelves in shops. I know you expect the media to be uncritical cheerleaders for Tory governments - and. let's face it, most of them usually are - but the suggestion that it's all someone else's fault and the government couldn't have responded better is risible. I don't expect the media to be cheerleaders for anyone, but neither do I expect them to deliberately create anxiety and panic among certain sections of the population regarding alleged shortages of fuel, food, toys and turkey at Christmas etc. etc. etc. There never was a shortage of petrol or diesel during the past few months, the panic at the pumps was entirely generated by loose and irresponsible media talk. There wasn't a shortage at the refineries, but we don't buy petrol there, we buy it from the petrol stations, where there were shortages ...
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 19, 2021 11:57:05 GMT 1
The solution would require more democracy, transparency and accountability not less. Which is not the least of the reasons why there are no politically acceptable solutions. Not even for you? Especially not for me.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Oct 19, 2021 12:01:12 GMT 1
Interesting to see what happens with Johnson's initiatives in this area. I can't help thinking about the garden bridge.
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Post by armchairfan on Oct 19, 2021 12:04:53 GMT 1
Do you then have any politically unacceptable remedies to offer?
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