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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 12:43:03 GMT 1
The problem with Embery is there's a 'right working class' and a 'wrong working class'.
How do we define today's working class?
Do we define it as someone struggling to pay the rent and using a food bank on a regular basis?
Someone working two jobs to make ends meet?
Someone on zero hours contracts and insecure work patterns?
Or, just the old fashioned blue-collar jobs of brickie, plumber, etc, etc?
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Post by Minormorris64 on Dec 8, 2020 13:12:17 GMT 1
Surely it should be as straightforward as the phrase is, a class in which somebody is working, as in going to work for a living?, but feel free to dress it up with whatever suits your agenda, its just that people get bored once you do that.
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Post by staffordshrew on Dec 8, 2020 13:20:33 GMT 1
Surely it should be as straightforward as the phrase is, a class in which somebody is working, as in going to work for a living?, but feel free to dress it up with whatever suits your agenda, its just that people get bored once you do that. That's how it should be. A fair days work for a fair days pay. Minimum of the Living Wage. Zero hours contracts only when it suits both parties.
A blip at the moment, but, with EU workers less likely to want to come here and an aging population that day may be here sooner than we think.
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Post by martinshrew on Dec 8, 2020 13:29:05 GMT 1
It's a classic case of people being offended for other people. BLM is a bunch of far left white cranks, half of the BAME community dismiss them as divisive.
I love the zero hours debate as well, plenty of people earning decent wages getting offended for those on zero hours when in fact plenty enjoy the flexibility zero hours bring.
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Post by venceremos on Dec 8, 2020 13:33:13 GMT 1
Yep, it's the equivalent of the old "I'm no racist, but ......." and we know where that always leads. Is that aimed at me?? It's not aimed at any individuals, but denial of being a racist doesn't mean that anyone isn't actually racist, whether they realise it or not. I don't want to expand the discussion any further here but it's likely we've all benefitted from white privilege at some points in our lives - and I include myself in that - even if we weren't aware of it. That doesn't make anyone racist but an unwillingness to acknowledge it and support positive actions towards levelling the playing field strongly suggest they would be.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 13:37:50 GMT 1
Surely it should be as straightforward as the phrase is, a class in which somebody is working, as in going to work for a living?, but feel free to dress it up with whatever suits your agenda, its just that people get bored once you do that. I don't have an agenda. It was an attempt at discussion around what is working class in the 21st Century. If you're not interested then fine. If you're bored that's your problem.
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Post by venceremos on Dec 8, 2020 13:40:26 GMT 1
I might be wrong, but so might you. Isn't that statement from Millwall? The BBC's report still says: Some QPR players will take the knee before Tuesday's game at The Den, despite having stopped the gesture earlier this season after director of football Les Ferdinand said its impact had "been diluted".Whatever happens, the booing has got people talking about the need to eradicate racism, which can only be good, even if some prefer to pretend that it doesn't exist and all anti-racists are Marxists. I disagree, it has got people talking about political agenda in sports and the left views of a political party, racism is a byproduct of the discussion. That's your perspective and I'd suggest that's because you're in the neo-McCarthyite group that sees the Marxist bogeyman everywhere. It's a very convenient of trying to shut down argument. The civil rights movement in the US was dismissed in similar terms. Another poster asserted yesterday that BLM is a political party. When queried, no evidence for the assertion was provided. What evidence do you have for saying BLM is a political party (not that there would be anything wrong with that if it is)?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 13:40:37 GMT 1
I love the zero hours debate as well, plenty of people earning decent wages getting offended for those on zero hours when in fact plenty enjoy the flexibility zero hours bring. Absolutely, there is no problem with zero hour contracts, particularly the flexibility they afford. The problem is when people are looking for more permanent contracts stuck in the rut of zero hour contract. For example, how do convince a mortgage lender to loan you money?
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Post by venceremos on Dec 8, 2020 13:41:16 GMT 1
It's a classic case of people being offended for other people. BLM is a bunch of far left white cranks, half of the BAME community dismiss them as divisive. I love the zero hours debate as well, plenty of people earning decent wages getting offended for those on zero hours when in fact plenty enjoy the flexibility zero hours bring. Quote of the day.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 14:35:30 GMT 1
It's not aimed at any individuals, but denial of being a racist doesn't mean that anyone isn't actually racist, whether they realise it or not. I don't want to expand the discussion any further here but it's likely we've all benefitted from white privilege at some points in our lives - and I include myself in that - even if we weren't aware of it. That doesn't make anyone racist but an unwillingness to acknowledge it and support positive actions towards levelling the playing field strongly suggest they would be. I would suggest you are delusional, NOBODY has suggested there is not a problem, every single sane person understands that there is, but its the level that is held and how wide it is. There are really despicable incidents of racism, but guess what, its not just a white issue, where as people only dwell on the white issue. The media and social media is all over it when there is a White on Black and it cannot wait to highlight the crime, but when it comes the other way, it is conveniently brushed under the carpet. As for support, again it was already there in the KICK IT OUT Campaign, of which i wear a badge EVERY SINGLE MATCHDAY at work, and have and will enforce if it is pointed out to me. If you firmly believe that the term black lives matter is not used politically, even if the UK side has now said its not, then you are more delusional that i give you credit for. But you sit there, be judgmental, and keep throwing isum's and ite's about willy nilly. Me, i will recognise there are problems. and that mantra, I AM NOT A RACIST stays, same as i I AM NOT A MURDERER, I AM NOT A PEADOPHILE, I AM NOT A BANK ROBBER and i am NOT A WIFE BEATER so does my denial of being those fit the same mantra you describe?
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Dec 8, 2020 14:37:59 GMT 1
Surely it should be as straightforward as the phrase is, a class in which somebody is working, as in going to work for a living?, but feel free to dress it up with whatever suits your agenda, its just that people get bored once you do that. Far too simple, there’s a surgeon living across the road from me. Is he the same class as the Amazon driver or bin men who have called at his house today?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 14:45:30 GMT 1
but its the level that is held and how wide it is. As a white, middle class, yet fundamentally decent person, how well qualified do you feel to answer that question?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 15:04:20 GMT 1
but its the level that is held and how wide it is. As a white, middle class, yet fundamentally decent person, how well qualified do you feel to answer that question? I would suggest that from my circle of friends, which is very diverse, and wide, is the level of racism in the UK is low. And not the widespread pandemic that is being portrayed on social media and other platforms.
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Dec 8, 2020 15:29:17 GMT 1
A while ago I mentioned that a doctor friend of my daughter who is ethnic Chinese, but British born and bred, resigned from the NHS because of racist comments from patients, the last straw being “I’m not being told what to do by a Chink”.
Last week his parents, both GPs, decided to relocate to Switzerland because the atmosphere in this country had become so unpleasant since 2016.
Together with my witnessing the harassment and low level hostility towards a Nigerian colleague I used to travel with on business trips makes me feel that racism in this country is more of a problem than Downie does.
Not that I dismiss Downie’s experience, just mine is different.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 15:46:03 GMT 1
Not that I dismiss Downie’s experience, just mine is different. This is the key isn't. Different lived experience. I have posted stats from links on here before that show race hate (and other hate crimes) crime is on the increase, particularly since 2016. My Russian colleague has experienced xenophobia over the past couple of years.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 15:51:27 GMT 1
Funnily enough, we're getting into Corbyn and Anti-Semitism territory here.
Is the amount of racism being overstated...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 16:01:56 GMT 1
A while ago I mentioned that a doctor friend of my daughter who is ethnic Chinese, but British born and bred, resigned from the NHS because of racist comments from patients, the last straw being “I’m not being told what to do by a Chink”. Last week his parents, both GPs, decided to relocate to Switzerland because the atmosphere in this country had become so unpleasant since 2016. Together with my witnessing the harassment and low level hostility towards a Nigerian colleague I used to travel with on business trips makes me feel that racism in this country is more of a problem than Downie does. Not that I dismiss Downie’s experience, just mine is different. Is this widespread, or is everyone she or they meet, and on a percentage of individuals that give abuse, how many don’t?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 16:37:52 GMT 1
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Post by venceremos on Dec 8, 2020 18:03:20 GMT 1
It's not aimed at any individuals, but denial of being a racist doesn't mean that anyone isn't actually racist, whether they realise it or not. I don't want to expand the discussion any further here but it's likely we've all benefitted from white privilege at some points in our lives - and I include myself in that - even if we weren't aware of it. That doesn't make anyone racist but an unwillingness to acknowledge it and support positive actions towards levelling the playing field strongly suggest they would be. I would suggest you are delusional, NOBODY has suggested there is not a problem, every single sane person understands that there is, but its the level that is held and how wide it is. There are really despicable incidents of racism, but guess what, its not just a white issue, where as people only dwell on the white issue. The media and social media is all over it when there is a White on Black and it cannot wait to highlight the crime, but when it comes the other way, it is conveniently brushed under the carpet. As for support, again it was already there in the KICK IT OUT Campaign, of which i wear a badge EVERY SINGLE MATCHDAY at work, and have and will enforce if it is pointed out to me. If you firmly believe that the term black lives matter is not used politically, even if the UK side has now said its not, then you are more delusional that i give you credit for. But you sit there, be judgmental, and keep throwing isum's and ite's about willy nilly. Me, i will recognise there are problems. and that mantra, I AM NOT A RACIST stays, same as i I AM NOT A MURDERER, I AM NOT A PEADOPHILE, I AM NOT A BANK ROBBER and i am NOT A WIFE BEATER so does my denial of being those fit the same mantra you describe? I'm deluded in thinking there's racism? You've said yourself there is. Or am I deluded in thinking that people who say they're not racist might actually be racist? Don't think so. You seem to view racism as something that only happens between individuals. Haven't you noticed that the anti-racist movement refers extensively to institutional racism? That's not the name-calling, intimidatory and occasionally violent racism, it's the subtle and much more powerful force that prevents one group of people having the same opportunities as another. I don't think even you could argue that there's black racism in UK institutions, acting to deny white people opportunities. Your "racism cuts both ways" line would be valid if everyone started from a position of equality, but we don't. It remains the case that, if you're white, you have certain advantages in our society that others don't have. As for BLM, I note that you, like the poster yesterday, have failed to back up your assertion that it's a political party. We're agreed that it isn't then, even if you won't admit it? Is racism a political issue? Of course it is. Do you seriously think it isn't? How would you counter racism - through education? Well, that's political - and no doubt the deniers would be moaning about bringing politics into the classroom and indoctrinating kids. How about through sport? Oh, wait ..... You call me delusional and yet it's me being judgmental? Check the mirror. As for your last paragraph, well, you've chosen to personalise something that I said explicitly wasn't personal. That's your choice, not mine.
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Post by venceremos on Dec 8, 2020 18:42:14 GMT 1
A while ago I mentioned that a doctor friend of my daughter who is ethnic Chinese, but British born and bred, resigned from the NHS because of racist comments from patients, the last straw being “I’m not being told what to do by a Chink”. Last week his parents, both GPs, decided to relocate to Switzerland because the atmosphere in this country had become so unpleasant since 2016. Together with my witnessing the harassment and low level hostility towards a Nigerian colleague I used to travel with on business trips makes me feel that racism in this country is more of a problem than Downie does. Not that I dismiss Downie’s experience, just mine is different. Is this widespread, or is everyone she or they meet, and on a percentage of individuals that give abuse, how many don’t? How high does the percentage need to be before the level of racism ceases to be 'low'? Certainly sets a low bar for the racists - as long as there's not too many of them and they're not too abusive, we're good.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 19:17:36 GMT 1
Is this widespread, or is everyone she or they meet, and on a percentage of individuals that give abuse, how many don’t? How high does the percentage need to be before the level of racism ceases to be 'low'? Certainly sets a low bar for the racists - as long as there's not too many of them and they're not too abusive, we're good. Not at all, 1 in a million is one to many, my point is that it is not widespread, but they way people are going on about it with institutional, it’s everywhere etc you would think we are a country of KKK clad population with our little slaves doing as they were ordered, where as, we are a tolerant population with a small minority of bad apples from every background... as to the we did not all start from the same place, sorry but that is garbage..... just 1 point to remember, there is not 1 person alive today that has either sold or been a proceed of sale for slavery. This needs to be stopped as a point of beating towards the population.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 19:26:37 GMT 1
there no B is not 1 person alive today that has either sold or been a proceed of sale for slavery. This needs to be stopped as a point of beating towards the population. Then maybe as a population we need to admit it, accept it apologies for it and stop exulting those who did it?
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Post by neilsalop on Dec 8, 2020 19:50:07 GMT 1
just 1 point to remember, there is not 1 person alive today that has either sold or been a proceed of sale for slavery.
Just a few bullet points for you to consider. the Modern Slavery Helpline received a 68% increase in calls and submissions in the year ending December 2018, compared with the previous year
there were 5,144 modern slavery offences recorded by the police in England and Wales in the year ending March 2019, an increase of 51% from the previous year
the number of potential victims referred through the UK National Referral Mechanism (NRM) increased by 36% to 6,985 in the year ending December 2018
Somewhere between 22 and 40m.
Now what was it you were saying?
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Post by Valerioch on Dec 8, 2020 20:07:57 GMT 1
As a white, middle class, yet fundamentally decent person, how well qualified do you feel to answer that question? I would suggest that from my circle of friends, which is very diverse, and wide, is the level of racism in the UK is low. And not the widespread pandemic that is being portrayed on social media and other platforms. One of the most diverse and accepting countries in Europe and the world!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 20:21:50 GMT 1
just 1 point to remember, there is not 1 person alive today that has either sold or been a proceed of sale for slavery.
Just a few bullet points for you to consider. the Modern Slavery Helpline received a 68% increase in calls and submissions in the year ending December 2018, compared with the previous year
there were 5,144 modern slavery offences recorded by the police in England and Wales in the year ending March 2019, an increase of 51% from the previous year
the number of potential victims referred through the UK National Referral Mechanism (NRM) increased by 36% to 6,985 in the year ending December 2018
Somewhere between 22 and 40m.
Now what was it you were saying?
Ok point taken
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Dec 8, 2020 20:52:39 GMT 1
A while ago I mentioned that a doctor friend of my daughter who is ethnic Chinese, but British born and bred, resigned from the NHS because of racist comments from patients, the last straw being “I’m not being told what to do by a Chink”. Last week his parents, both GPs, decided to relocate to Switzerland because the atmosphere in this country had become so unpleasant since 2016. Together with my witnessing the harassment and low level hostility towards a Nigerian colleague I used to travel with on business trips makes me feel that racism in this country is more of a problem than Downie does. Not that I dismiss Downie’s experience, just mine is different. Is this widespread, or is everyone she or they meet, and on a percentage of individuals that give abuse, how many don’t? Are you implying that people who have lived and worked here for over 30 years and are now experiencing a level of hostility that makes them feel uncomfortable are uprooting themselves for a trivial reason?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 20:55:23 GMT 1
Is this widespread, or is everyone she or they meet, and on a percentage of individuals that give abuse, how many don’t? Are you implying that people who have lived and worked here for over 30 years and are now experiencing a level of hostility that makes them feel uncomfortable are uprooting themselves for a trivial reason? Sorry, I am unsure what you are saying? It makes no sense to me
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Post by neilsalop on Dec 8, 2020 21:03:09 GMT 1
Just a few bullet points for you to consider. the Modern Slavery Helpline received a 68% increase in calls and submissions in the year ending December 2018, compared with the previous year
there were 5,144 modern slavery offences recorded by the police in England and Wales in the year ending March 2019, an increase of 51% from the previous year
the number of potential victims referred through the UK National Referral Mechanism (NRM) increased by 36% to 6,985 in the year ending December 2018
Somewhere between 22 and 40m.
Now what was it you were saying?
Ok point taken In all my years on B&A that is the closest I have ever come to seeing you admit that you might be wrong. There may be hope for you yet.
Just because you don't know anyone that has been a slave doesn't mean that slavery doesn't exist, just as not knowing anyone that has experienced racism doesn't mean that racism doesn't exist.
Look outside of your own bubble occasionally.
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Post by staffordshrew on Dec 8, 2020 21:20:10 GMT 1
With regard to Downie's comment "Is this widespread, or is everyone she or they meet, and on a percentage of individuals that give abuse, how many don’t?" Surely one is too many? Forget any racial aspect, imagine one family always making life a misery in your street. Only a very small percentage of your potential neighbours would cause trouble, but just one could ruin someone's life and take away their confidence.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 21:22:58 GMT 1
In all my years on B&A that is the closest I have ever come to seeing you admit that you might be wrong. There may be hope for you yet.
Just because you don't know anyone that has been a slave doesn't mean that slavery doesn't exist, just as not knowing anyone that has experienced racism doesn't mean that racism doesn't exist.
Look outside of your own bubble occasionally.
I work in events, and most weekends up until this pandemic, I am in the thick of events where there are normally at least 50000 people at, and would say, and again I could be wrong, but I interact with many different people, of all races and creeds, and observe most of them. Perhaps, and just a guess here, is my bubble could be bigger than you realise.
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