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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 20:38:37 GMT 1
Blimey and this from the bloke who called an elected politician Sturmbarn something or other. You clearly haven't read Marxist theories. I am well aware of the failings of Marxist regimes. You talk of rational thought, but fail to engage in a meaningful manner about the idea of shared wealth and equality. You ignore the point about religion. Enjoy the Welfare State đź‘Ť Dearie me "engage in a meaningful manner" indeed? If you can't see the intended humour behind my reference to Mr Drakeford (as, for example, in the portrayal of German officers in "Allo Allo") then your sense of humour or of the ridiculous has deserted you! I don't really need to read the works of Marx and Engels to understand Marxist theory, any more than I need to read a detailed exposition on the workings of the internal combustion engine to understand THAT: it is simply enough to know that it either works, or it doesn't. How gracious of you to acknowledge the "failings" of Marxist regimes..... would you call the Chinese famine (estimated deaths of 35-40 MILLION), Soviet gulags, the Byelorussian famine, the Uigjar "re-education camps in China, the enslavement of Venezuela" simply "failings" ? These are monstrous crimes, and, in terms of numbers, far exceeding the evils perpetrated in the name of the Third Reich, or was that just a "failing" as well? If, as you say, you are aware of the failings of Marxist regimes, you should take a hard look at their root causes, as I suggest in my post. I did indeed ignore your point about religion, largely because I don't see its relevance, other than perhaps to an allusion to Stalin's alleged question as to the number of tanks the Pope had; otherwise, your point escapes me, but I am, after all, an atheist, so perhaps you can educated me on that matter too. You seem to follow the Marxist line about the "sharing of wealth", without considering how best to create that wealth in the first place - I suggest that the non-Marxist economies have been a tad more successful than Marxist ones, or perhaps you know differently. The NHS may well its existence to Marxist theory for all I know, (or care, come to that) but to hold it up as some sort of iconic totem of the success of the whole theory does rather stretch credulity beyond breaking..... surely there are more wonderful and greater successes in the all-encompassing panoply of Marxist theory.... please do enlighten me! So, you haven't read any Marxist theory. Fine. It is pretty easy to see why the reference to religion it's relevant, you just chose to ignore it, because it shows that any theory and ideology can be warped to suit whoever wants to coerce and control. It enables people to blow other people up and to say homosexuality is wrong and gay people need to be 'cured'. Like Marxist theory is warped to suit people to coerce and control. What you fail to acknowledge is that the Welfare State (which you and others on here enjoy the fruits of) is based in Marxist theory and closely linked to Social Democracy. This is what I am getting at, but you know this. The experiences of Marxism in the Eastern Block during the Cold War varied from country to country. It's a subject much studied by 'Western' historians since the Cold War ended and challenges the orthodoxies by people like you. But, you're not interested, that's obvious, so I will save myself the trouble of proving links or recommended reading.
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Post by armchairfan on Dec 7, 2020 20:56:09 GMT 1
Dearie me "engage in a meaningful manner" indeed? If you can't see the intended humour behind my reference to Mr Drakeford (as, for example, in the portrayal of German officers in "Allo Allo") then your sense of humour or of the ridiculous has deserted you! I don't really need to read the works of Marx and Engels to understand Marxist theory, any more than I need to read a detailed exposition on the workings of the internal combustion engine to understand THAT: it is simply enough to know that it either works, or it doesn't. How gracious of you to acknowledge the "failings" of Marxist regimes..... would you call the Chinese famine (estimated deaths of 35-40 MILLION), Soviet gulags, the Byelorussian famine, the Uigjar "re-education camps in China, the enslavement of Venezuela" simply "failings" ? These are monstrous crimes, and, in terms of numbers, far exceeding the evils perpetrated in the name of the Third Reich, or was that just a "failing" as well? If, as you say, you are aware of the failings of Marxist regimes, you should take a hard look at their root causes, as I suggest in my post. I did indeed ignore your point about religion, largely because I don't see its relevance, other than perhaps to an allusion to Stalin's alleged question as to the number of tanks the Pope had; otherwise, your point escapes me, but I am, after all, an atheist, so perhaps you can educated me on that matter too. You seem to follow the Marxist line about the "sharing of wealth", without considering how best to create that wealth in the first place - I suggest that the non-Marxist economies have been a tad more successful than Marxist ones, or perhaps you know differently. The NHS may well its existence to Marxist theory for all I know, (or care, come to that) but to hold it up as some sort of iconic totem of the success of the whole theory does rather stretch credulity beyond breaking..... surely there are more wonderful and greater successes in the all-encompassing panoply of Marxist theory.... please do enlighten me! So, you haven't read any Marxist theory. Fine. It is pretty easy to see why the reference to religion it's relevant, you just chose to ignore it, because it shows that any theory and ideology can be warped to suit whoever wants to coerce and control. It enables people to blow other people up and to say homosexuality is wrong and gay people need to be 'cured'. Like Marxist theory is warped to suit people to coerce and control. What you fail to acknowledge is that the Welfare State (which you and others on here enjoy the fruits of) is based in Marxist theory and closely linked to Social Democracy. This is what I am getting at, but you know this. The experiences of Marxism in the Eastern Block during the Cold War varied from country to country. It's a subject much studied by 'Western' historians since the Cold War ended and challenges the orthodoxies by people like you. But, you're not interested, that's obvious, so I will save myself the trouble of proving links or recommended reading. This could go on forever, but as we obviously have no common points of reference, to prolong the conversation would be futility in extremis! You dream of your nirvana if you must, but remember that "orthodoxies" exist because they are errrm..... generally accepted ; you remind me of the mother watching the scouts troop by and commenting that they are all out of step except her son. Dream on my poor man.!
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Post by venceremos on Dec 7, 2020 21:00:07 GMT 1
It never occurred to me that you might be someone who booed. But now you mention it, I realise I might well already have been debating the issue on here with people who would boo given the opportunity, so perhaps I'm wrong in saying I wouldn't. I've just had enough of people making excuses for racist behaviour. If even a peaceful gesture can't be made without booing, it seems clear there's a hell of a long way to go before racism is eradicated. Some seem to think it's got nothing to do with football, or that Kick It Out can magic up a footballing world of racial equality regardless of the wider social context. That just seems to be wishful thinking and a desire for a quiet life and easy solutions. The booing didn't happen because those people thought taking the knee had gone on too long or because they wanted actions, not gestures. They've opposed it from the start, either because they're outright racists or because they don't think there's a problem if society is racially unequal, which of course is racist in itself. All lives matter is a meaningless nonsense. Of course all lives matter. You might as well say air is useful or food is necessary. Nobody boos all lives matter because it doesn't exist, other than as a social media hashtag designed to drown out a specifically anti-racist social movement. The pertinent question is why, in response to a movement protesting the inordinate numbers of deaths of black men, women and children at the hands of law enforcement agencies, anyone would want to say 'never mind your specific grievance, everybody matters'? It's insulting and appalling that so many have latched onto it. The motivations of those who originated it are dubious, to say the least. But probably most of those who object are not racist. This is the point. What they object to is anti racism being championed by a politically motivated group whose aims go against what a lot of people vigorously disagree with. Why muddy the waters with a political movement when you already have Kick It Out to champion it? If you personally support BLM and its political aims that's fine. Your choice. But for others that do not support their politics then that's why there's a problem. If people were asked to applaud the Kick It Out campaign for 15 seconds at the start of every game I very much doubt whether there would be any booing at all. And anyone that did probably ought to be ejected. As it is, people have the excuse to say that they don't support BLM and carry on booing. And that's where the campaign to stamp out racism loses. Most of those booing aren't racist? How can you possibly know that? It seems unlikely, to put it mildly. As I've said, if people don't support taking the knee that's their decision. But you can withhold support of something without booing it. I don't support the royal family or the national anthem but I wouldn't boo them. BLM is a social movement, not a political party. But social movements have to become involved in politics because that's how change happens. BLM has been demonised by some because of views expressed by some of those involved in it. That doesn't discredit the entire movement and its aims, convenient as that would be for some. I don't know what "supporting BLM" means. I do know what supporting anti-racism means and I'll do that every single time. But that's beside the point. Taking the knee is not a gesture of support exclusively for BLM, it's much wider than that. The civil rights movement in the US was a loose alliance of many different groups and individuals, not a homogeneous whole. So it is with what gets labelled as "BLM" now. Kick It Out is too limited. Football doesn't exist in a bubble outside society, however much some people want it to be that. It has a responsibility to reflect and help change society, just as it's always done. As far as I'm concerned there are only two sides to this; those who stand with the Millwall booers and others doing likewise, and those who oppose them (whether or not they support taking the knee). Pandering to them is unacceptable.
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Post by neilsalop on Dec 7, 2020 21:01:34 GMT 1
Blimey and this from the bloke who called an elected politician Sturmbarn something or other. You clearly haven't read Marxist theories. I am well aware of the failings of Marxist regimes. You talk of rational thought, but fail to engage in a meaningful manner about the idea of shared wealth and equality. You ignore the point about religion. Enjoy the Welfare State đź‘Ť Dearie me "engage in a meaningful manner" indeed? If you can't see the intended humour behind my reference to Mr Drakeford (as, for example, in the portrayal of German officers in "Allo Allo") then your sense of humour or of the ridiculous has deserted you! I don't really need to read the works of Marx and Engels to understand Marxist theory, any more than I need to read a detailed exposition on the workings of the internal combustion engine to understand THAT: it is simply enough to know that it either works, or it doesn't. How gracious of you to acknowledge the "failings" of Marxist regimes..... would you call the Chinese famine (estimated deaths of 35-40 MILLION), Soviet gulags, the Byelorussian famine, the Uigjar "re-education camps in China, the enslavement of Venezuela" simply "failings" ? These are monstrous crimes, and, in terms of numbers, far exceeding the evils perpetrated in the name of the Third Reich, or was that just a "failing" as well? If, as you say, you are aware of the failings of Marxist regimes, you should take a hard look at their root causes, as I suggest in my post. I did indeed ignore your point about religion, largely because I don't see its relevance, other than perhaps to an allusion to Stalin's alleged question as to the number of tanks the Pope had; otherwise, your point escapes me, but I am, after all, an atheist, so perhaps you can educated me on that matter too. You seem to follow the Marxist line about the "sharing of wealth", without considering how best to create that wealth in the first place - I suggest that the non-Marxist economies have been a tad more successful than Marxist ones, or perhaps you know differently. The NHS may well its existence to Marxist theory for all I know, (or care, come to that) but to hold it up as some sort of iconic totem of the success of the whole theory does rather stretch credulity beyond breaking..... surely there are more wonderful and greater successes in the all-encompassing panoply of Marxist theory.... please do enlighten me! Approximate amount of Indian deaths during British rule 35+m including 3 major famines that each took between 2 and 10 million lives
Boers that died in British concentration camps c28,000
The Trail of Tears in the US lead to at least 30,000 deaths
Serbian and Montenegrin forces massacred 25,000 Albanians in 1912/13
German SS troops killed 70,000+ people from one Warsaw suburb in one week in 1944
South Korean forces killed around 30-40,000 communist sympathisers during an uprising in 1948
An anti-communist purge in Indonesia in 1965 led to the deaths of over half a million
Up to 10m people died in the famine in China in 1928-30, well before communism
Between 1885 and 1908 there were around 13-20m excess deaths in the Belgian Congo, not to mention the barbaric mutilations carried out by Belgian troops
Not one of the above are attributable to anything approaching Marxism and there are many, many more examples I could supply
For what it's worth religion has been the driver of many more deaths that any political ideology, but I haven't even put any of the deaths in the name of sky wizards on to the list. Perhaps you would like to look it up yourself when you've finished trying to lay the blame of every woe in the world on Marxism.
Also worth pointing out that Venezuela was actually doing rather well until the US started imposing sanctions in 2015.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 21:06:13 GMT 1
So, you haven't read any Marxist theory. Fine. It is pretty easy to see why the reference to religion it's relevant, you just chose to ignore it, because it shows that any theory and ideology can be warped to suit whoever wants to coerce and control. It enables people to blow other people up and to say homosexuality is wrong and gay people need to be 'cured'. Like Marxist theory is warped to suit people to coerce and control. What you fail to acknowledge is that the Welfare State (which you and others on here enjoy the fruits of) is based in Marxist theory and closely linked to Social Democracy. This is what I am getting at, but you know this. The experiences of Marxism in the Eastern Block during the Cold War varied from country to country. It's a subject much studied by 'Western' historians since the Cold War ended and challenges the orthodoxies by people like you. But, you're not interested, that's obvious, so I will save myself the trouble of proving links or recommended reading. This could go on forever, but as we obviously have no common points of reference, to prolong the conversation would be futility in extremis! You dream of your nirvana if you must, but remember that "orthodoxies" exist because they are errrm..... generally accepted ; you remind me of the mother watching the scouts troop by and commenting that they are all out of step except her son. Dream on my poor man.! I dream of nothing. Enjoy your state pension and the care the NHS give you.
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Post by returnofthehype on Dec 7, 2020 21:07:27 GMT 1
The sooner the racist BLM Movement is stopped the better. The most blatant racist “group” this country has had the misfortune of witnessing.
Thankfully most people are now seeing it for what it is. This time next year it will be a distant memory that few will remember with any form fondness.
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Post by armchairfan on Dec 7, 2020 21:09:11 GMT 1
This could go on forever, but as we obviously have no common points of reference, to prolong the conversation would be futility in extremis! You dream of your nirvana if you must, but remember that "orthodoxies" exist because they are errrm..... generally accepted ; you remind me of the mother watching the scouts troop by and commenting that they are all out of step except her son. Dream on my poor man.! I dream of nothing. Enjoy your state pension and the care the NHS give you. I will - you really are one pathetic individual, I'm sorry to say!
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Post by Pilch on Dec 7, 2020 21:12:23 GMT 1
guys , lets not act like millwall fans
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 21:14:27 GMT 1
Racism has got to be one of the top things never to discuss on an internet forum! I’m out.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 21:15:26 GMT 1
I dream of nothing. Enjoy your state pension and the care the NHS give you. I will - you really are one pathetic individual, I'm sorry to say! That's rather an unpleasant thing to say. But, now we know what we're dealing with now.
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Post by Pilch on Dec 7, 2020 21:17:50 GMT 1
guys , lets not act like millwall fans ditto
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Post by staffordshrew on Dec 7, 2020 21:28:00 GMT 1
'Cos they saw it on the telly/twitter/it's the in thing.
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Post by armchairfan on Dec 7, 2020 21:33:56 GMT 1
I will - you really are one pathetic individual, I'm sorry to say! That's rather an unpleasant thing to say. But, now we know what we're dealing with now. Is there really no end to your astounding sense of self-righteousneds, even when you have no credible evidence to support your misguided views.... You will doubtless gain satisfaction from my giving up!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 21:40:49 GMT 1
That's rather an unpleasant thing to say. But, now we know what we're dealing with now. Is there really no end to your astounding sense of self-righteousneds, even when you have no credible evidence to support your misguided views.... You will doubtless gain satisfaction from my giving up! Lol, oh dear... I will give you evidence if you promise to read it.
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Post by armchairfan on Dec 7, 2020 21:42:34 GMT 1
Dearie me "engage in a meaningful manner" indeed? If you can't see the intended humour behind my reference to Mr Drakeford (as, for example, in the portrayal of German officers in "Allo Allo") then your sense of humour or of the ridiculous has deserted you! I don't really need to read the works of Marx and Engels to understand Marxist theory, any more than I need to read a detailed exposition on the workings of the internal combustion engine to understand THAT: it is simply enough to know that it either works, or it doesn't. How gracious of you to acknowledge the "failings" of Marxist regimes..... would you call the Chinese famine (estimated deaths of 35-40 MILLION), Soviet gulags, the Byelorussian famine, the Uigjar "re-education camps in China, the enslavement of Venezuela" simply "failings" ? These are monstrous crimes, and, in terms of numbers, far exceeding the evils perpetrated in the name of the Third Reich, or was that just a "failing" as well? If, as you say, you are aware of the failings of Marxist regimes, you should take a hard look at their root causes, as I suggest in my post. I did indeed ignore your point about religion, largely because I don't see its relevance, other than perhaps to an allusion to Stalin's alleged question as to the number of tanks the Pope had; otherwise, your point escapes me, but I am, after all, an atheist, so perhaps you can educated me on that matter too. You seem to follow the Marxist line about the "sharing of wealth", without considering how best to create that wealth in the first place - I suggest that the non-Marxist economies have been a tad more successful than Marxist ones, or perhaps you know differently. The NHS may well its existence to Marxist theory for all I know, (or care, come to that) but to hold it up as some sort of iconic totem of the success of the whole theory does rather stretch credulity beyond breaking..... surely there are more wonderful and greater successes in the all-encompassing panoply of Marxist theory.... please do enlighten me! Approximate amount of Indian deaths during British rule 35+m including 3 major famines that each took between 2 and 10 million lives
Boers that died in British concentration camps c28,000
The Trail of Tears in the US lead to at least 30,000 deaths
Serbian and Montenegrin forces massacred 25,000 Albanians in 1912/13
German SS troops killed 70,000+ people from one Warsaw suburb in one week in 1944
South Korean forces killed around 30-40,000 communist sympathisers during an uprising in 1948
An anti-communist purge in Indonesia in 1965 led to the deaths of over half a million
Up to 10m people died in the famine in China in 1928-30, well before communism
Between 1885 and 1908 there were around 13-20m excess deaths in the Belgian Congo, not to mention the barbaric mutilations carried out by Belgian troops
Not one of the above are attributable to anything approaching Marxism and there are many, many more examples I could supply
For what it's worth religion has been the driver of many more deaths that any political ideology, but I haven't even put any of the deaths in the name of sky wizards on to the list. Perhaps you would like to look it up yourself when you've finished trying to lay the blame of every woe in the world on Marxism.
Also worth pointing out that Venezuela was actually doing rather well until the US started imposing sanctions in 2015. Nowhere have I suggested that Marxism has been the cause of every woe in the world, but I do fully agree that religion, or to be more accurate, its adherents, have to accept a great deal of blame!
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Post by Pilch on Dec 7, 2020 22:25:03 GMT 1
choose your weapons
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Post by salop18 on Dec 8, 2020 1:15:57 GMT 1
You don't change people's mindset by making them look like idiots. The fans of Millwall do need to have deep seated prejudices challemged in a different way than some clubs. I would have thought that was obvious? Come on now, taking the knee at Millwall was clearly meant to provoke the reaction it did. Do you change people's mindsets by pandering to their prejudices? Of course not. Do you seriously believe that minority doesn't exist all over the country, at every other club, or almost? It's there and it needs to be put in the spotlight and shown up for what it is. The only people who made those Millwall fans look like idiots was those Millwall fans. I'm astonished that you're acting as their apologist and claiming they were somehow driven to it. But in the longer run, they've done a good thing because more people are now talking about this issue than they were before. They've even succeeded in getting QPR to take the knee again. Well done lads.  Wrong! There’s a statement ahead of the game between Millwall vs QPR on Tuesday even saying that the players won’t be taking the knee but will be standing arm in arm instead. I’ve been reading the Millwall forum tonight, the majority if not all seem to be in agreement that they’ll clap if no players take the knee but do the arm link instead. They don’t want racism in football but also don’t want to see “BLM ideology” within their club. Fair enough if you ask me.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 8, 2020 7:27:43 GMT 1
Inevitable I suppose in todays climate but its getting a bit little sinister now isn't it. The PFA asking those fans to be who booed to be identified, for what purpose I'm not sure but I think I can guess. The PFA say it isn't political, others see it differently. I'm sure they will now try and tell you that black lives matter isn't BLM, others see if differently (they messed that up from the start, that ship has sailed). The PFA are right to state that the players have the right to take the knee, they can also also express their disappointment that some supporters booed but what the hell are they doing asking for these fans to be identified? Football has made a right mess of this...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 8:07:39 GMT 1
Inevitable I suppose in todays climate but its getting a bit little sinister now isn't it. The PFA asking those fans to be who booed to be identified, for what purpose I'm not sure but I think I can guess. The PFA say it isn't political, others see it differently. I'm sure they will now try and tell you that black lives matter isn't BLM, others see if differently (they messed that up from the start, that ship has sailed). The PFA are right to state that the players have the right to take the knee, they can also also express their disappointment that some supporters booed but what the hell are they doing asking for these fans to be identified? Football has made a right mess of this... Football and the Media in there clamour to be sensationalist, the FA and PL had the chance to have a great initiative for Kick it Out as the anti racist movement, if it was not working, then it was a superb time to rebrand it. But it’s been driven by ideology, and popular myths, over something that happened over 4000 miles away, and now they have to fix it, by putting the players against supporters will only make matters worse, Is everyone that Boo’d a racist, absolutely not, I would Boo it if our players did it, and happy to explain to each and everyone of them why, I am no racist, and neither is everyone who feels strongly against it, and to portray them as being so, will drive a wedge between them and the really good cause of kick it out.
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Post by neilsalop on Dec 8, 2020 8:17:37 GMT 1
Nowhere have I suggested that Marxism has been the cause of every woe in the world, but I do fully agree that religion, or to be more accurate, its adherents, have to accept a great deal of blame! Funny that you only managed to mention atrocities or failings by Marxist or left wing regimes. You missed anything that was perpetrated by right wing or capitalist ones. You also failed to accept that the crisis in Venezuela is a US manufactured one and that prior to sanctions they were actually doing quite well. Also that after the US backed coup in Bolivia the electorate decided that they wanted to make their own choice and Movement for Socialism party got back in with over 55% of the vote, far more than any political party has ever managed in the UK in my lifetime.
FWIW I think the taking the knee is getting a bit contrived in the UK now. It was started in US sports, where before every game or event they drum the National Anthem down peoples throats, as a protest against police brutality against black people. We do get a similar thing over here, but on a much smaller and less extreme scale and I don't think that it is telling the same story over here when players kneel. For starters we only get the NA when the national team is playing, so kneeling is sort of shoehorned in to the pre-match routine, just like a minutes silence or applause is. I think it would be better if the players that want to make a statement by taking the knee continue to do it, without any judgement on those that don't do it. Unfortunately there are some that would call those that didn't do it 'supporters of racism', when most of them are no such thing.
How many footballers from around the world have actually studied Marxism or even understand it? If anyone actually believes that all the players taking a knee while being on ÂŁ200k a week are Marxists they really need to give their head a shake.
Just to add that there are probably people who support BLM that are Marxists, some no doubt support the Revolutionary Communist Party (a route into the House of Lords these days), a fair few are probably anarchists, but the vast majority are just people that want to see an end to systemic racism in both the police and in society in general.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 8, 2020 9:06:53 GMT 1
Inevitable I suppose in todays climate but its getting a bit little sinister now isn't it. The PFA asking those fans to be who booed to be identified, for what purpose I'm not sure but I think I can guess. The PFA say it isn't political, others see it differently. I'm sure they will now try and tell you that black lives matter isn't BLM, others see if differently (they messed that up from the start, that ship has sailed). The PFA are right to state that the players have the right to take the knee, they can also also express their disappointment that some supporters booed but what the hell are they doing asking for these fans to be identified? Football has made a right mess of this... Football and the Media in there clamour to be sensationalist, the FA and PL had the chance to have a great initiative for Kick it Out as the anti racist movement, if it was not working, then it was a superb time to rebrand it. But it’s been driven by ideology, and popular myths, over something that happened over 4000 miles away, and now they have to fix it, by putting the players against supporters will only make matters worse, Is everyone that Boo’d a racist, absolutely not, I would Boo it if our players did it, and happy to explain to each and everyone of them why, I am no racist, and neither is everyone who feels strongly against it, and to portray them as being so, will drive a wedge between them and the really good cause of kick it out. Yeah, you could see where this was going as soon as the FA got itself involved with BLM. They could of gone straight to "Kick it Out", they could of gone to UEFA's "No to Racism"...which I like, straight to the point, apolitical, something everyone can get on board with. They could have reached for "Not today or any day" then too. They could have introduced something completely new. And whatever they decided upon they could have pushed it to the hilt. We see the "Not today or any day" message on iFollow surrounding the games and its very well done, its excellent. Instead they didn't bother to check what they were getting in to, they just rushed in desperate to be seen to be doing the right thing. Superficial comes to mind. The fact that we are even talking about this tells you all you need to know; that football have messed this up big time, that the FA shouldn't have been anywhere near BLM. And as we agree, it really didn't need to. And its on them and no one else this (the EPL, the EFL, the PFA or whoever), they can't now be critical of fans for reacting in this manner nor critical of any fan who is uncomfortable with this association. It was they who got themselves involved with BLM, it was they who got themselves involved with a far left political movement with political aims that the vast majority of people wouldn't touch with a barge pole, who have brought violence and vandalism to the streets of London and elsewhere, who don't mind employing the odd anti-Semitic trope, whose own supporters aren't averse to using racist language against those who question them. Like I say, a complete mess. And the last point you make is an interesting one. Maybe I'm missing it but from what I read we seem to have an awful lot of people given a platform to condemn the booing, has anyone actually sat down with anyone to try and understand why this campaign against racism as drawn the reaction is has whilst others not? Maybe that wouldn't hurt either.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Dec 8, 2020 9:25:57 GMT 1
I like Paul Embery. Champion of the working class. Got the sack for daring to speak out. You can see his speeches on youtube.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 8, 2020 9:34:01 GMT 1
I like Paul Embery. Champion of the working class. Got the sack for daring to speak out. You can see his speeches on youtube. Just to let you know JT he's just released his first book (I'm expecting delivery any day now)...đź‘Ť Despised: Why the Modern Left Loathes the Working Class.
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Post by Minormorris64 on Dec 8, 2020 9:42:11 GMT 1
I like Paul Embery. Champion of the working class. Got the sack for daring to speak out. You can see his speeches on youtube. Paul Embery on Lexit and Why the Left Has Abandoned the Working Class
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Post by thesensationaljt on Dec 8, 2020 9:44:59 GMT 1
I like Paul Embery. Champion of the working class. Got the sack for daring to speak out. You can see his speeches on youtube. Just to let you know JT he's just released his first book (I'm expecting delivery any day now)...đź‘Ť Despised: Why the Modern Left Loathes the Working Class.Yea I know, Stutty, my copy is ordered.
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Dec 8, 2020 11:40:27 GMT 1
It was so obvious all along, thank goodness Millwall fans could see through the ruse!
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Post by venceremos on Dec 8, 2020 11:45:46 GMT 1
Yep, it's the equivalent of the old "I'm no racist, but ......." and we know where that always leads.
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Post by venceremos on Dec 8, 2020 11:51:33 GMT 1
Do you change people's mindsets by pandering to their prejudices? Of course not. Do you seriously believe that minority doesn't exist all over the country, at every other club, or almost? It's there and it needs to be put in the spotlight and shown up for what it is. The only people who made those Millwall fans look like idiots was those Millwall fans. I'm astonished that you're acting as their apologist and claiming they were somehow driven to it. But in the longer run, they've done a good thing because more people are now talking about this issue than they were before. They've even succeeded in getting QPR to take the knee again. Well done lads. Wrong! There’s a statement ahead of the game between Millwall vs QPR on Tuesday even saying that the players won’t be taking the knee but will be standing arm in arm instead. I’ve been reading the Millwall forum tonight, the majority if not all seem to be in agreement that they’ll clap if no players take the knee but do the arm link instead. They don’t want racism in football but also don’t want to see “BLM ideology” within their club. Fair enough if you ask me. I might be wrong, but so might you. Isn't that statement from Millwall? The BBC's report still says: Some QPR players will take the knee before Tuesday's game at The Den, despite having stopped the gesture earlier this season after director of football Les Ferdinand said its impact had "been diluted".Whatever happens, the booing has got people talking about the need to eradicate racism, which can only be good, even if some prefer to pretend that it doesn't exist and all anti-racists are Marxists.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 12:24:56 GMT 1
Yep, it's the equivalent of the old "I'm no racist, but ......." and we know where that always leads. Is that aimed at me??
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 12:27:19 GMT 1
Wrong! There’s a statement ahead of the game between Millwall vs QPR on Tuesday even saying that the players won’t be taking the knee but will be standing arm in arm instead. I’ve been reading the Millwall forum tonight, the majority if not all seem to be in agreement that they’ll clap if no players take the knee but do the arm link instead. They don’t want racism in football but also don’t want to see “BLM ideology” within their club. Fair enough if you ask me. I might be wrong, but so might you. Isn't that statement from Millwall? The BBC's report still says: Some QPR players will take the knee before Tuesday's game at The Den, despite having stopped the gesture earlier this season after director of football Les Ferdinand said its impact had "been diluted".Whatever happens, the booing has got people talking about the need to eradicate racism, which can only be good, even if some prefer to pretend that it doesn't exist and all anti-racists are Marxists. I disagree, it has got people talking about political agenda in sports and the left views of a political party, racism is a byproduct of the discussion.
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