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Post by cabanas2017 on Dec 6, 2020 19:20:05 GMT 1
"Millwall manager Gary Rowett, who saw Jason Knight grab Derby's winner, expressed his disappointment at the incident, but said his players were concerned that taking the knee was in danger of becoming an empty gesture.
He said: "The players have released a statement together and said they don't support it (taking the knee) as a political message but support anti-discrimination.
"Moving forward, like a lot of clubs, they would prefer not to take the knee and actually enact change.
"They want to be proactive rather than it being a gesture which a lot of clubs are now saying is perhaps empty."
Not well documented but Colchester fans did the same as well!
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Post by camdenshrew on Dec 6, 2020 19:31:52 GMT 1
Those Millwall fans weren't booing because they thought taking the knee had become an empty gesture. Even their own club doesn't think that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 19:33:31 GMT 1
Why can't we support Kick It Out instead? Non political and non divisive. The problem with BLM is that it can also cause resentment by disenfranchised, struggling white communities who feel excluded and have few opportunities themselves. Time to move on from BLM and knee taking and promote racial equality and fair opportunities for ALL of society. I think now would be a good time to stop this but still have Kick It Out on all shirts as a reminder that racism must not be tolerated. Disenfranchised, struggling white communities are just as mucch at the mercy of neo-liberal economics and a lack of opportunities as BAME communities. The idea of equality is founded in Marxist theory. That's the point, it's actually colour blind. It's worth pointing out that the 'poor' regardless of colour of their skin are demonised as 'feckless' and 'scroungers' in the MSM. We had a good example of that on here recently.
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Post by venceremos on Dec 6, 2020 19:43:54 GMT 1
Or, supporting the things YOU find relevant whilst not supporting the things you don’t? Again, your entitled to your opinion. I just find it unreal you can dispel the remembrance of literally millions of people who fell for our freedoms today as “irrelevant”. The poppy is a sign of respect nothing more nothing less Pretty sure BLM is a registered political party now. Is it a surprise the majority of people don’t support it? BLM is not a political party. From the home page of blacklivesmatter.uk: We are a non-political, non-partisan, non-violence platform. Some content published on our website may have limited political content by the very nature of a country state governed and under a system of democracy. We operate in a humanitarian capacity and concern before all else.
We are not operating as a member of nor connected with any political party.
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Post by venceremos on Dec 6, 2020 19:47:11 GMT 1
Maybe you believe BLM are an extremist group because you’re not black and haven’t spent a life time on the receiving end of institutional racism and societal bigotry and abuse? I wonder if you’d have the freedom to take the knee, if those the poppy represents hadn’t died for today. Interesting thought 🤔 Is that meant to be an argument for not doing it, that you wouldn't have been able to if we'd lost the war?
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Post by R6ix on Dec 6, 2020 19:57:29 GMT 1
they probably booed because they are sick of sport being used as a political rubbing rag and wanna go to the ground and see a game of footy and not some charade ,i hope this ends soon,its getting ridiculous now.even Roald Dahls family have issued an apology about a comment he made about jews in 1983,where does it end?
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Post by Valerioch on Dec 6, 2020 19:57:33 GMT 1
I wonder if you’d have the freedom to take the knee, if those the poppy represents hadn’t died for today. Interesting thought 🤔 Is that meant to be an argument for not doing it, that you wouldn't have been able to if we'd lost the war? Not all all Matron thinks remembering those millions who died for our freedom is “irrelevant” I just said if it wasn’t for the “irrelevant” dead, we may possibly not have the freedoms to express opinion. The Nazi’s were hardly known for allowing opposing views and embracing minorities and equality were they. The thread got somewhat muddled before I even got involved, as usual something totally irrelevant to the thread title got brought in to it in comparisons to the poppy
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Post by venceremos on Dec 6, 2020 19:59:38 GMT 1
Why can't we support Kick It Out instead? Non political and non divisive. The problem with BLM is that it can also cause resentment by disenfranchised, struggling white communities who feel excluded and have few opportunities themselves. Time to move on from BLM and knee taking and promote racial equality and fair opportunities for ALL of society. I think now would be a good time to stop this but still have Kick It Out on all shirts as a reminder that racism must not be tolerated. How can it be sensible to stop fighting racism in society (through BLM) but to continue to fight it in football (through Kick It Out)? Football isn't separate from society and you can't eliminate racism in football in isolation. Interesting that you use the phrase "non divisive". The whole point of fighting racism is that it's a divisive cancer; it treats some people differently from others. The division is already there and is only being exposed by anti-racist efforts. We can pretend we're not divided and everyone's on the same page but that won't help eliminate racism.
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Post by martinshrew on Dec 6, 2020 20:00:33 GMT 1
I applaud the fans of Millwall, West Ham, Colchester and any others who want to follow suit.
Hopefully we return to kick it out, an organisation against racism of all forms.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Dec 6, 2020 20:04:22 GMT 1
BLM as a slogan is brilliant.
As a movement it's toxic because of its anti- police/ Marxist backdrop.
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Post by venceremos on Dec 6, 2020 20:06:20 GMT 1
they probably booed because they are sick of sport being used as a political rubbing rag and wanna go to the ground and see a game of footy and not some charade ,i hope this ends soon,its getting ridiculous now.even Roald Dahls family have issued an apology about a comment he made about jews in 1983,where does it end? I think if my famous dad or grandad had said he believed that there was a "a trait in the Jewish character that does provoke animosity", I'd have felt apologetic about that, particularly if I was enjoying the wealth his work had generated. Don't you find that openly anti-semitic comment repugnant? Where does it end? It ends when human beings stop treating other human beings as their inferiors on the basis of their skin colour or ethnicity. Not an unreasonable goal, however long it takes to get there.
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Post by venceremos on Dec 6, 2020 20:17:23 GMT 1
I applaud the fans of Millwall, West Ham, Colchester and any others who want to follow suit. Hopefully we return to kick it out, an organisation against racism of all forms. I have no problem with anyone thinking we should no longer take the knee. It's not unreasonable to suggest that it's becoming devalued by repetition and more positive actions are needed. Booing the gesture is entirely different though, because it's grossly disrespectful towards those who see continuing value in the gesture and the suffering of those it represents. Would you be so tolerant of people booing during the minute's silence on Remembrance Sunday? Disagree as much as you like but, if you set out to attack others, you're part of the problem. I don't believe for a second that those booing yesterday did so because they think the gesture has gone on too long and we should channel all anti-racist efforts through Kick It Out. I don't care who they support, I just hope they can be identified and banned.
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Post by another fine mess on Dec 6, 2020 20:28:29 GMT 1
Of course, one way to discredit any movement that asks hard questions of society and in particular the 'establishment' is for people the establishment and others to call in 'extremist' To label them extremist is to label every single person who takes the knee, or looks at BLM and supports it as an extremist, which is of course nonsenses. This includes the Millwall and Derby players who enjoy the fruits of neo-liberal capitalism. The other day we had people calling out a member of the board (rightly) for using the term fascist. The official UK website is here and distances itself from the USA and other BLM movements. www.blacklivesmatter.uk/To label Marxist ideology as extremist tells you all you need to know about how far to the right, the right has become. Thanks for sharing the link.
That’s a significant and welcome rebranding exercise.
Unfortunately when the protests started, BLM’s internet and social media presence in the UK was not like this and it did contain injunctions to empty prisons, get rid of (not defund) the police etc. They also declared their opposition to the traditional family. I think those positions can safely be described as extreme whether you’re on the left or right.
So, despite the sensible rebranding, BLM has a couple years’ worth of unpleasant baggage that many reasonable people don’t want to be associated with. The Premier League, BBC etc naively rushed to embrace an organisation without checking what they stood for. It would be good if we could all join in promoting racial equality and leave BLM out of the equation.
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Post by armchairfan on Dec 6, 2020 20:36:58 GMT 1
Why can't we support Kick It Out instead? Non political and non divisive. The problem with BLM is that it can also cause resentment by disenfranchised, struggling white communities who feel excluded and have few opportunities themselves. Time to move on from BLM and knee taking and promote racial equality and fair opportunities for ALL of society. I think now would be a good time to stop this but still have Kick It Out on all shirts as a reminder that racism must not be tolerated. Disenfranchised, struggling white communities are just as mucch at the mercy of neo-liberal economics and a lack of opportunities as BAME communities. The idea of equality is founded in Marxist theory. That's the point, it's actually colour blind. It's worth pointing out that the 'poor' regardless of colour of their skin are demonised as 'feckless' and 'scroungers' in the MSM. We had a good example of that on here recently. You had best ask the inhabitants of China, compared with Taiwan, North Korea, compared with South Korea, or the former prisoners of the former USSR what THEY may think about following "Marxist theory"
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Dec 6, 2020 20:40:26 GMT 1
In the interests of balanced reporting, ‘the knee’ was loudly applauded by the fans at both Tottenham Hotspur stadium and Anfield today.
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Post by Worthingshrew on Dec 6, 2020 20:51:26 GMT 1
they probably booed because they are sick of sport being used as a political rubbing rag and wanna go to the ground and see a game of footy and not some charade ,i hope this ends soon,its getting ridiculous now.even Roald Dahls family have issued an apology about a comment he made about jews in 1983,where does it end? I think if my famous dad or grandad had said he believed that there was a "a trait in the Jewish character that does provoke animosity", I'd have felt apologetic about that, particularly if I was enjoying the wealth his work had generated. Don't you find that openly anti-semitic comment repugnant? Where does it end? It ends when human beings stop treating other human beings as their inferiors on the basis of their skin colour or ethnicity. Not an unreasonable goal, however long it takes to get there. I think the comment about where does it end is to highlight the fact that if you go back far enough, each of us will have ancestors who said or thought or acted in ways we would not condone today. Should each of us therefore apologise for them? No. Likewise, undoubtedly our descendants will think of us as having poor attitudes in another 50 years time.
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mcrshrew
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Post by mcrshrew on Dec 6, 2020 20:59:54 GMT 1
Again, your entitled to your opinion. I just find it unreal you can dispel the remembrance of literally millions of people who fell for our freedoms today as “irrelevant”. The poppy is a sign of respect nothing more nothing less Pretty sure BLM is a registered political party now. Is it a surprise the majority of people don’t support it? BLM is not a political party. From the home page of blacklivesmatter.uk: We are a non-political, non-partisan, non-violence platform. Some content published on our website may have limited political content by the very nature of a country state governed and under a system of democracy. We operate in a humanitarian capacity and concern before all else.
We are not operating as a member of nor connected with any political party.
Not true. Both the wikipedia page and the BLM website (under 'herstory') claim otherwise "BLM is an ideological and political intervention" blacklivesmatter.com/herstory/en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Lives_MatterWhether you support it or not, it's against Premier League rules. Pep Guardiola was fined for supporting Catalan independence www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/pep-guardiola-catalan-independence-fa-yellow-ribbon-manchester-city-a8225591.html
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Post by WATR on Dec 6, 2020 21:11:09 GMT 1
On a slightly similar topic, I think there are too many minutes silences/applauses before games. I couldn’t believe the one for Maradonna last week. Very much in agreement with this. I'd also add the fad for applauding in a certain minute. It was fine when it was a very occasional gesture for somebody known to the whole fan base, but it's now at that stage that before one game there three separate requests for applause in certain minutes posted in the Facebook group - for a single game.
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Post by venceremos on Dec 6, 2020 22:25:36 GMT 1
I’d suggest the BLM UK website (which I quoted) is a better source for finding out whether BLM UK is a political party. It’s clearly quite different in nature from the Catalan independence movement (although I’m in favour of that too).
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Post by venceremos on Dec 6, 2020 22:29:06 GMT 1
I think if my famous dad or grandad had said he believed that there was a "a trait in the Jewish character that does provoke animosity", I'd have felt apologetic about that, particularly if I was enjoying the wealth his work had generated. Don't you find that openly anti-semitic comment repugnant? Where does it end? It ends when human beings stop treating other human beings as their inferiors on the basis of their skin colour or ethnicity. Not an unreasonable goal, however long it takes to get there. I think the comment about where does it end is to highlight the fact that if you go back far enough, each of us will have ancestors who said or thought or acted in ways we would not condone today. Should each of us therefore apologise for them? No. Likewise, undoubtedly our descendants will think of us as having poor attitudes in another 50 years time. I think the anti-semitism of a famous and still widely read, filmed and admired (by me too) children’s author is more of an issue than what our ancestors generally might have said and done. We’re talking about 1983, not the 17th century. Where does it end is too easily used as a do nothing excuse.
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Post by dachshund on Dec 6, 2020 22:33:29 GMT 1
‘This has been going on for months now, it was fair enough at first, but it’s all getting a bit much, time to move on. Now, let me talk at length about a war that has nothing to do with this topic and ended 75 years ago’
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Post by Valerioch on Dec 6, 2020 22:46:03 GMT 1
‘This has been going on for months now, it was fair enough at first, but it’s all getting a bit much, time to move on. Now, let me talk at length about a war that has nothing to do with this topic and ended 75 years ago’ I suggest you read the thread back, properly this time, before bringing the sarcasm out Matron, a seeming supporter of BLM, brought the poppy up, which is symbolic for those fallen in conflict, including the world wars.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 22:59:33 GMT 1
Disenfranchised, struggling white communities are just as mucch at the mercy of neo-liberal economics and a lack of opportunities as BAME communities. The idea of equality is founded in Marxist theory. That's the point, it's actually colour blind. It's worth pointing out that the 'poor' regardless of colour of their skin are demonised as 'feckless' and 'scroungers' in the MSM. We had a good example of that on here recently. You had best ask the inhabitants of China, compared with Taiwan, North Korea, compared with South Korea, or the former prisoners of the former USSR what THEY may think about following "Marxist theory" As you well know, Marxism can be applied to Social Democracy. Like for example, the Welfare State. Which, I am sure you have used in the form of the NHS and your pension.
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Post by blamber on Dec 6, 2020 23:18:55 GMT 1
Why can't we support Kick It Out instead? Non political and non divisive. The problem with BLM is that it can also cause resentment by disenfranchised, struggling white communities who feel excluded and have few opportunities themselves. Time to move on from BLM and knee taking and promote racial equality and fair opportunities for ALL of society. I think now would be a good time to stop this but still have Kick It Out on all shirts as a reminder that racism must not be tolerated. How can it be sensible to stop fighting racism in society (through BLM) but to continue to fight it in football (through Kick It Out)? Football isn't separate from society and you can't eliminate racism in football in isolation. Interesting that you use the phrase "non divisive". The whole point of fighting racism is that it's a divisive cancer; it treats some people differently from others. The division is already there and is only being exposed by anti-racist efforts. We can pretend we're not divided and everyone's on the same page but that won't help eliminate racism. The problem comes when people do not want to be preached at when they go to a football match. It can cause resentment when there was none there to begin with. Surely no one can complain about Kick It Out as it's specifically there to tackle anti racist behaviour. BLM, as a political movement, has a strong political agenda which many don't agree with. And whatever you may think about struggling white communities they have a right to be heard too. I agree that you can't separate football and society. But you don't always have to use politics to educate or inform. As we see from this thread, politics itself is divisive - football is too! I think debate and hearing other people's opinions is the best way to learn and understand each other. I worry that some factions of our society are dismissive (often abusive) towards other people's views that they don't agree with (ie the narrow minded 'cancel culture') - meaning we can't ever debate anything for fear of being abused or labelled something that we're not.
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Post by armchairfan on Dec 6, 2020 23:33:59 GMT 1
You had best ask the inhabitants of China, compared with Taiwan, North Korea, compared with South Korea, or the former prisoners of the former USSR what THEY may think about following "Marxist theory" As you well know, Marxism can be applied to Social Democracy. Like for example, the Welfare State. Which, I am sure you have used in the form of the NHS and your pension. As have most of us, I guess; have YOU ever used the services of NON-Marxist organisation? Moreover, I use NHS services VOLUNTARILY, not as a result of state enforcement. If I had ever had the money, or a need, I would have used private health services and private education - it's called freedom of choice, and hardly available in a Marxist society; excuse me for happening to believe that that freedom trumps ANY of the horrors perpetrated in the name of that obscene, insane ideology.
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Post by Hippo on Dec 6, 2020 23:56:49 GMT 1
I agree that it's going through the motions now. Can't remember the last time it prompted any kind of discussion or debate.
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mcrshrew
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Post by mcrshrew on Dec 7, 2020 1:00:31 GMT 1
I’d suggest the BLM UK website (which I quoted) is a better source for finding out whether BLM UK is a political party. It’s clearly quite different in nature from the Catalan independence movement (although I’m in favour of that too). The .com website mentions it being a 'global operation' and since decentralization, defunding the police and abolishing capitalism are their 'core values' (and inherently political) I fail to see how the UK variant could deviate from those and still be associated. It's a bit like saying "this is a cat, but it wags its tail and says woof" People need to know what they're supporting and I don't suppose every single footballer up and down the land has made a conscious decision to take the knee nor do they know about the political agenda behind this, which many are very keen to hide. Of course Catalan independence is an entirely different issue, but my point was to highlight the hypocrisy in the way authorities, in football at least, have either turned a blind eye to BLM's true nature or, like others, are unaware. Which is it? A lot of people seem to be sweeping it under the carpet. There's more than meets the eye here. Another issue is the alarming frequency with which you see 'all cops are pigs' and similar vitriol, and you try telling me that BLM doesn't contribute to that. Come to mention it, why does the logo used for a supposedly non-violent organisation use a clenched fist?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 7:51:44 GMT 1
As you well know, Marxism can be applied to Social Democracy. Like for example, the Welfare State. Which, I am sure you have used in the form of the NHS and your pension. As have most of us, I guess; have YOU ever used the services of NON-Marxist organisation? Moreover, I use NHS services VOLUNTARILY, not as a result of state enforcement. If I had ever had the money, or a need, I would have used private health services and private education - it's called freedom of choice, and hardly available in a Marxist society; excuse me for happening to believe that that freedom trumps ANY of the horrors perpetrated in the name of that obscene, insane ideology. Right so, Marxist theory is good then. Because, you use the Welfare State and have obviously benefited from getting equal treatment at a basic level. Of course it's about choice, but you choose to use the support of the state. If other countries use Marxist Theory for their own warped ideology it does not make the theory defunct. If you go down that road you may as well say all religious beliefs are bad. One of the funniest conversations I ever had was with a true blue Tory voting member of my union going on about "sharing the wealth" and "equality in society". His name was Ken, could imagine my nickname for him...
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Post by venceremos on Dec 7, 2020 11:33:04 GMT 1
How can it be sensible to stop fighting racism in society (through BLM) but to continue to fight it in football (through Kick It Out)? Football isn't separate from society and you can't eliminate racism in football in isolation. Interesting that you use the phrase "non divisive". The whole point of fighting racism is that it's a divisive cancer; it treats some people differently from others. The division is already there and is only being exposed by anti-racist efforts. We can pretend we're not divided and everyone's on the same page but that won't help eliminate racism. The problem comes when people do not want to be preached at when they go to a football match. It can cause resentment when there was none there to begin with. Surely no one can complain about Kick It Out as it's specifically there to tackle anti racist behaviour. BLM, as a political movement, has a strong political agenda which many don't agree with. And whatever you may think about struggling white communities they have a right to be heard too. I agree that you can't separate football and society. But you don't always have to use politics to educate or inform. As we see from this thread, politics itself is divisive - football is too! I think debate and hearing other people's opinions is the best way to learn and understand each other. I worry that some factions of our society are dismissive (often abusive) towards other people's views that they don't agree with (ie the narrow minded 'cancel culture') - meaning we can't ever debate anything for fear of being abused or labelled something that we're not. I really don’t have any interest in debating with people who boo a peaceful action intended to raise awareness and promote racial equality. Appeasing such people never ends well. Nobody is being lectured, any more than a minute’s silence is a lecture. All you have to do is wait a moment while those on the pitch take the knee. If you don’t like that, you can discuss it in an appropriate forum but to boo it is beneath contempt.
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Post by armchairfan on Dec 7, 2020 11:35:36 GMT 1
As have most of us, I guess; have YOU ever used the services of NON-Marxist organisation? Moreover, I use NHS services VOLUNTARILY, not as a result of state enforcement. If I had ever had the money, or a need, I would have used private health services and private education - it's called freedom of choice, and hardly available in a Marxist society; excuse me for happening to believe that that freedom trumps ANY of the horrors perpetrated in the name of that obscene, insane ideology. Right so, Marxist theory is good then. Because, you use the Welfare State and have obviously benefited from getting equal treatment at a basic level. Of course it's about choice, but you choose to use the support of the state. If other countries use Marxist Theory for their own warped ideology it does not make the theory defunct. If you go down that road you may as well say all religious beliefs are bad. One of the funniest conversations I ever had was with a true blue Tory voting member of my union going on about "sharing the wealth" and "equality in society". His name was Ken, could imagine my nickname for him... Well, at least you have disabused me of the notion that sometimes a sense of humour is lacking on this board ("Marxist theory is good"), if only gallows humour! What the adherents of Marxism can not,or will not, see is that Marxism is like, to be topical, a virus which invades the body, and depends for its survival upon those most noble of human traits - compassion, and care for one's fellow man - and then corrupting them into the evil barbaric practices which we witness so often, from Stalin's gulags, through China's great famine, to today's humanitarian disaster in oil-rich Venezuela; throw into that recipe the sheer brutality of Pol Pot, and Kim Jon Un, and you end up with not a Utopian paradise, but a living hell on earth. The point is, not, as you imply, that such consequences are the result of some other non-defined "warped ideology", but the INEVITABLE results of trying to put Marxist theory into practice - NOT the implementation of the "wrong sort of Marxism". All the evidence of history tells us that the only way in which a state, founded on Marxist principles, can function at all is through coercion, lies and brutality visited upon its population, and where its peoples MUST, not only parrot the imagined achievements of the State, but, upon pain of death, believe them. As if this weren't bad enough, Marxists fail to acknowledge that the very theory operates contrary to the the basic human instinct of trying to better one's lot in life, for oneself, or for one's descendents: even from a simple economic assessment, Marxism is an abysmal failure - again, look at that glorious success which is Venezuela - but going back in time, when Western countries had BMWs, Mercedes, Jaguars and Minis, East Germans had the Trabant. I was once acquainted with a guy who actually, quite seriously believed that the Berlin Wall was there to keep us out. As one of the other board members is fond of saying "You couldn't make it up".... not strictly true, of course - Orwell (a man of the LEFT) warned us. You are welcome to continue to defend the indefensible should you so wish, but do not expect those of us who retain the capacity for rational thought, to take you seriously: Marxism is a monstrous evil, not a shining light leading us to a perfect world, if only because such a perfect world exists only in Marxist imagination.
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