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Post by Chief Inspector Swan on Jun 14, 2021 9:24:46 GMT 1
Imagine being so dogmatic that you feel compelled to boo an anti-racism gesture for fear that even silently observing would be equated with wanting to de-fund the police.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2021 9:50:03 GMT 1
I think if you have to keep defending and explaining a gesture then its not working for you. I suspect that those who don’t want to hear, won’t hear, no matter how blindingly obvious your message is. As they say, you can’t legislate for stupid.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 14, 2021 10:03:56 GMT 1
I think if you have to keep defending and explaining a gesture then its not working for you. I suspect that those who don’t want to hear, won’t hear, no matter how blindingly obvious your message is. As they say, you can’t legislate for stupid. That works both ways. I think the very same of those who can't get it into their heads that people clearly see this gesture as synonymous with BLM, a political movement (despite what the players and management say, that is how it is seen) and they do not wish to see it in football. And that if another method was used, there would be no discussion around the gesture used and no booing. But like you say, you can't legislate for stupid. So we just continue as we are. The players kneel, the fans clap or boo, the FA keep reminding everyone why they are doing it. And around we go.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2021 10:17:29 GMT 1
I suspect that those who don’t want to hear, won’t hear, no matter how blindingly obvious your message is. As they say, you can’t legislate for stupid. That works both ways. I think the very same of those who can't get it into their heads that people clearly see this gesture as synonymous with BLM, a political movement (despite what the players and management say, that is how it is seen) and they do not wish to see it in football. And that if another method was used, there would be no discussion around this and no booing. But like you say, you can't legislate for stupid. So we just continue as we are. The players kneel, the fans clap or boo, the FA keep reminding everyone why they are doing it. And around we go. So, and I do take your point, but to refer to a previous point I made, as the English flag has in so many ways been hijacked by the far right, should we drop it and try a new one? As the poppy is regarded by some as condoning and glorifying war, should we drop it and try some other symbol to unite behind?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 14, 2021 10:46:44 GMT 1
That works both ways. I think the very same of those who can't get it into their heads that people clearly see this gesture as synonymous with BLM, a political movement (despite what the players and management say, that is how it is seen) and they do not wish to see it in football. And that if another method was used, there would be no discussion around this and no booing. But like you say, you can't legislate for stupid. So we just continue as we are. The players kneel, the fans clap or boo, the FA keep reminding everyone why they are doing it. And around we go. So, and I do take your point, but to refer to a previous point I made, as the English flag has in so many ways been hijacked by the far right, should we drop it and try a new one? As the poppy is regarded by some as condoning and glorifying war, should we drop it and try some other symbol to unite behind? Can't say for sure but I suspect the vast majority of people do not regard any flag of any country as political. Or the poppy. I don't see how either are endorsing a political party or movement. Is this what you believe? I don't see these things in the same light. And by all means you can say that "some" see it differently but how widely held are these views? And if there are people out there who do hold these views then of course they are free to hold them. But I suspect they are very much in the minority.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2021 11:37:54 GMT 1
So, and I do take your point, but to refer to a previous point I made, as the English flag has in so many ways been hijacked by the far right, should we drop it and try a new one? As the poppy is regarded by some as condoning and glorifying war, should we drop it and try some other symbol to unite behind? Can't say for sure but I suspect the vast majority of people do not regard any flag of any country as political. Or the poppy. I don't see how either are endorsing a political party or movement. Is this what you believe? I don't see these things in the same light. And by all means you can say that "some" see it differently but how widely held are these views? And if there are people out there who do hold these views then of course they are free to hold them. But I suspect they are very much in the minority. So you don’t see how the flag of st George has been hijacked over the years by the far right and has become associated with these groups?
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 14, 2021 11:39:48 GMT 1
Can't say for sure but I suspect the vast majority of people do not regard any flag of any country as political. Or the poppy. I don't see how either are endorsing a political party or movement. Is this what you believe? I don't see these things in the same light. And by all means you can say that "some" see it differently but how widely held are these views? And if there are people out there who do hold these views then of course they are free to hold them. But I suspect they are very much in the minority. So you don’t see how the flag of st George has been hijacked over the years by the far right and has become associated with these groups? I've got to be honest, I don't no?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2021 11:43:58 GMT 1
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 14, 2021 11:57:47 GMT 1
Can't say for sure but I suspect the vast majority of people do not regard any flag of any country as political. Or the poppy. I don't see how either are endorsing a political party or movement. Is this what you believe? I don't see these things in the same light. And by all means you can say that "some" see it differently but how widely held are these views? And if there are people out there who do hold these views then of course they are free to hold them. But I suspect they are very much in the minority. So you don’t see how the flag of st George has been hijacked over the years by the far right and has become associated with these groups? Perhaps it may have been seen as such in the past, I don't know. Perhaps I wasn't taking much notice then. Would we say that now though? As I don't see it. For me a country's flag represents just that, the country. I don't see them as representing a political position. Perhaps with the hammer and sickle of the former USSR did so, as that symbol is synonymous with communism (and we still see it as a result). But as the USSR is no longer. Not sure if there are any others.
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Post by Pilch on Jun 14, 2021 12:03:13 GMT 1
What we need is a Roman emperor in the stand
When the ref blows for kick off the players look for a thumbs up or thumbs down to dictate if they take the knee or not and the crowd follow suit
Maybe release the odd lion into the pitch too
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Post by mattmw on Jun 14, 2021 12:15:14 GMT 1
After England impressive performance against Croatia could we be seeing a Marxist team win the tournament for the first time in years?
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Post by venceremos on Jun 14, 2021 12:15:20 GMT 1
There was mild booing of the gesture yesterday, just as there was mild booing of the Croatian national anthem. Happily, the booing of the taking the knee was drowned by louder applause. The loudest booing was at times when Croatia had possession. Some people just seem to like meaningless booing. That's nice.
If the booing continues, whether from those who are racist or those who are just disrespectful, so be it. Those who say the taking the knee gesture has lost its meaning (which is no reason to boo it, of course) will presumably agree that the effect of booing the gesture has also lost any poisonous potency it might have had. I can live with people showing themselves up for as long as the players want to take the knee. It's time we simply ignored the ignorant.
Any time the players want to stop, or if they want to express an anti-racism stance in a different way, that's absolutely fine. But it must be their choice, not forced by the actions of the morons and the disrespectful.
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Post by venceremos on Jun 14, 2021 12:17:17 GMT 1
After England impressive performance against Croatia could we be seeing a Marxist team win the tournament for the first time in years? "We'll keep the red flag flying" - 2021's 'Three Lions'.
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Post by champagneprince on Jun 14, 2021 14:39:43 GMT 1
If a player did not agree, would that player feel that his place in the side was in jeopardy, and therefore feel obliged to take the knee for fear of losing his place in the side?
What we hear is that all the players are in unison, but I would be surprised that in a squad of 23 there wasn't one player who didn't want to do it.
Personally, I don't think footballers should be put in that scenario. If some or all of them do it just before kick-off then that's fine, but how many are doing it just so to stay in the manager's good books? Southgate is ultimately the man who picks the team and his view is:
“Every player that does is very clear that the protest is against the lack of opportunity, it is anti-racism, it is supporting our teammates and staff that work with us,” he said. “It is a unifying act every time I see it. Although I heard people saying it is becoming less impactful, I didn’t feel that because every time I go to a game and I see it I think it is hugely powerful.”
Which I feel is fair enough, I personally would take the knee, but I would hate to feel obliged to for fear of not getting picked.
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Post by venceremos on Jun 14, 2021 15:00:38 GMT 1
I don't believe there's a three line whip on taking the knee and Southgate isn't the sort of person who would base a selection decision on such a thing.
Players are free to make their own decision, as it should be.
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Post by Bob Rickerton on Jun 14, 2021 23:16:08 GMT 1
If I made up a completely hypothetical argument with no proof attached to it to suit my argument, would that be wrong?
Anyone remember Wilf Zaha? Famously never played for Palace again after stopping taking the knee.
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lynch
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Post by lynch on Jun 15, 2021 11:15:12 GMT 1
“Every player that does is very clear that the protest is against the lack of opportunity, it is anti-racism, it is supporting our teammates and staff that work with “
On lack of opportunities, OECD analysis suggests that if you’re born into a poor family in Sweden, it would take you three generations to reach the average national income; Canada four, Britain five. This applies to working class migrants too. With large migrations of low skilled workers post WW2, it will take a radical change in politics (like that proposed by BLM) to address this and the massive wealth and resultant power disparities that have emerged between racial groups over the past 500 years. On anti-racism, there are already legislation in place with severe penalties for hate speech. It’s not clear to me what the desired outcome kneeling is expected to bring to address the points on why it’s being done.
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Post by South Stand Salopian on Aug 3, 2021 17:50:45 GMT 1
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Post by LetchworthShrew on Aug 3, 2021 18:02:33 GMT 1
EFL supporting players who want to take the knee next season too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2021 18:54:39 GMT 1
Lost its meaning for me, feels like any other part of the pre match procedure. If players think it will/has made a difference then crack on, don’t have a problem with it continuing, but I feel like the significance and power it once had has been completely devalued from being overused.
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Post by barrynic on Aug 3, 2021 19:06:51 GMT 1
Be interesting to hear the block 18 and 19 response to the "taking of the knee" on Saturday.
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Post by South Stand Salopian on Aug 3, 2021 19:16:36 GMT 1
Be interesting to hear the block 18 and 19 response to the "taking of the knee" on Saturday. Will we though? We didn’t take the knee for the few home games when home fans were allowed in last season.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2021 9:09:25 GMT 1
Be interesting to hear the block 18 and 19 response to the "taking of the knee" on Saturday. Why just those blocks?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2021 9:12:22 GMT 1
Lost its meaning for me, feels like any other part of the pre match procedure. If players think it will/has made a difference then crack on, don’t have a problem with it continuing, but I feel like the significance and power it once had has been completely devalued from being overused. Agree with this. I've said a few times that the only thing that is keeping it in the news is the booing, if that stops then it just becomes another pre match ritual which does nothing more than making some white people and the football authorities happy that they are 'doing their bit' to stamp out racism.
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Post by servernaside on Aug 4, 2021 17:39:29 GMT 1
All I can say to those who continue to support this gesture, is that it's obviously been such a resounding success that racism and racist abuse has all but disappeared.
lol.
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Post by Bob Rickerton on Aug 4, 2021 18:41:14 GMT 1
If it does get booed on Saturday, hopefully big Aaron nods home a last minute winner and whips his shirt off to reveal a "**** servernaside" motif underneath.
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Post by SeanBroseley on Aug 4, 2021 18:45:05 GMT 1
Whether they take the knee or not will be sorted out in the dressing room - like the England team this summer. They're young men who have a strong black representation among them. They may come to a different decision on this from people in other age groups who come from a borough where ethnic minorities make up barely 1% of the population.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2021 18:53:45 GMT 1
All I can say to those who continue to support this gesture, is that it's obviously been such a resounding success that racism and racist abuse has all but disappeared. lol. Bit like sending people to prison for committing crimes. Might as well not bother really eh?
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Post by barrynic on Aug 4, 2021 18:58:13 GMT 1
Note to all.
Please read the book by Michael Holding on the subject.
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Post by ssshrew on Aug 4, 2021 19:01:00 GMT 1
I would like to think that, if our players decide this is what they wish to do, then we would all support them. However, I do worry that it will lose its meaning and, as others have said, just become part of a routine.
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