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Post by shropshirelad42 on Dec 6, 2020 13:07:34 GMT 1
This is just going to build up more resentment. If you don't take the knee, (and I wouldn't), it's akin to bullying by frowning upon the person involved. The tax dodger Hamilton is a good bullying example. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-54526075I never stand up for the national anthem or wear/buy a poppy. I get frowned upon. Is that bullying Don't get me going about National Anthems . I like the Queen and think she has done a sterling job during her reign, but a National Anthem should be about 'that country & it's people', not about a particular person. Wales & Scotland have their own official Anthems and N. Ireland have unofficial Anthems. The English should have had a referendum regarding this matter a long time ago. My bloodline is Welsh, Irish & English so I think I am - officially ' allowed this comment.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Dec 6, 2020 13:17:17 GMT 1
This is just going to build up more resentment. If you don't take the knee, (and I wouldn't), it's akin to bullying by frowning upon the person involved. The tax dodger Hamilton is a good bullying example. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-54526075I never stand up for the national anthem or wear/buy a poppy. I get frowned upon. Is that bullying to? No it's your choice, Matron. I do stand for the National Anthem, but never sing it. I stand for the memory of people like Chris's Uncle Tom. His medal has pride of place in amongst a few bits of my own in a cabinet at our house. He was awarded the Arctic Star medal in 2013, (better late than never). But why have we got the medal and not his wife or children? Because he was still a young man in his twenties who didn't get the chance to marry, when his ship, HMS Martin, was blown up by a U-boat in 1942. Working in the engine room, he didn't stand a chance. So you sit down during the National Anthem if you wish, but I'm going to stand for Uncle Tom and thousands more like him who gave their lives for us. uboat.net/allies/merchants/crews/person/15045.html
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Post by Pilch on Dec 6, 2020 13:19:35 GMT 1
its got to the point now, where certain people use it as a opportunity to try and trap non racists into saying something not meant in any way to be racist, or jump on them for saying something that could be remotely frowned upon at a push, its all getting pathetic
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Post by ssshrew on Dec 6, 2020 13:21:49 GMT 1
Yes I stand and sing I’m afraid because it’s something I’ve always done. I admire the woman greatly far more than I do ANY politicians. At the moment it is our anthem but if that were to change then I would sing the new one.
Like JT I stand to remember and wear a poppy to remember in particular my grandfather who was presented with medals after the WW1 for bravery and an Uncle who died in WW2 plus the the thousands I didn’t know. But this is my choice and one of the greatest things about living here is just that - the freedom to choose. Long may it continue.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 13:26:23 GMT 1
This is just going to build up more resentment. If you don't take the knee, (and I wouldn't), it's akin to bullying by frowning upon the person involved. The tax dodger Hamilton is a good bullying example. www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-54526075I never stand up for the national anthem or wear/buy a poppy. I get frowned upon. Is that bullying to? The wearing of a Poppy on football kits and the act of remembrance at football is interesting point. There's a strong argument that the Poppy has been politicised. The BNP hijacked it for their purposes (as well as hilariously using a picture of a Spitfire flown by a Polish squadron in the RAF) for their election literature. MPs fall over themselves to be seen wearing it first and for the longest. McClean, who for obvious reasons, refuses to wear one. He gets dogs abuse for that. So, what's to be banned. All symbols of a political nature, such as taking a knee, or aborning our kits with poppies and minutes silence? Or do we jut ban what we don't agree with?
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Dec 6, 2020 13:35:44 GMT 1
Taking the knee is a worthy gesture that has gone on too long and lost its value.
The issue that should be addressed is why there are so few black or brown faces in boardrooms and FA committees. Even more egregious is the lack of black managers and coaches given the numbers of black players who have come into the game during the past 20 plus years.
On a slightly similar topic, I think there are too many minutes silences/applauses before games. I couldn’t believe the one for Maradonna last week.
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Post by Valerioch on Dec 6, 2020 14:08:34 GMT 1
I think a key difference is one is refusing to support those who have given their life for our freedom today The other is refusing to kneel to an extremist group. Just a thought Or, supporting the things YOU find relevant whilst not supporting the things you don’t? Again, your entitled to your opinion. I just find it unreal you can dispel the remembrance of literally millions of people who fell for our freedoms today as “irrelevant”. The poppy is a sign of respect nothing more nothing less Pretty sure BLM is a registered political party now. Is it a surprise the majority of people don’t support it?
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Post by Pilch on Dec 6, 2020 14:14:56 GMT 1
Or, supporting the things YOU find relevant whilst not supporting the things you don’t? Again, your entitled to your opinion. I just find it unreal you can dispel the remembrance of literally millions of people who fell for our freedoms today as “irrelevant”. The poppy is a sign of respect nothing more nothing less Pretty sure BLM is a registered political party now. Is it a surprise the majority of people don’t support it? if i wanted to help remember those from the wars and made some poppies to sell, id probably be taken to court by the royal british legion for counterfeiting , it would be a case of every little doesnt help
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 14:17:01 GMT 1
Or, supporting the things YOU find relevant whilst not supporting the things you don’t? Again, your entitled to your opinion. I just find it unreal you can dispel the remembrance of literally millions of people who fell for our freedoms today as “irrelevant”. The poppy is a sign of respect nothing more nothing less Pretty sure BLM is a registered political party now. Is it a surprise the majority of people don’t support it? It's ok to support something and not agree with everything they stand for. If we did that, we wouldn't vote for anything, or anyone. I am a Green Party member. I don't agree with all the Green defence policy. For example, the defence industry is worth billions to this country, but they would effectively stop that by withdrawing government support, promotion and protection of the industry.
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Post by davycrockett on Dec 6, 2020 14:18:56 GMT 1
Fair play to those at Millwall. It's nothing to do with race anymore, it's a far left political movement. Nah they’re racists..... they’d admit it
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 14:24:18 GMT 1
Or, supporting the things YOU find relevant whilst not supporting the things you don’t? Again, your entitled to your opinion. I just find it unreal you can dispel the remembrance of literally millions of people who fell for our freedoms today as “irrelevant”. The poppy is a sign of respect nothing more nothing less Pretty sure BLM is a registered political party now. Is it a surprise the majority of people don’t support it? Maybe you believe BLM are an extremist group because you’re not black and haven’t spent a life time on the receiving end of institutional racism and societal bigotry and abuse?
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Post by Valerioch on Dec 6, 2020 14:37:31 GMT 1
Again, your entitled to your opinion. I just find it unreal you can dispel the remembrance of literally millions of people who fell for our freedoms today as “irrelevant”. The poppy is a sign of respect nothing more nothing less Pretty sure BLM is a registered political party now. Is it a surprise the majority of people don’t support it? Maybe you believe BLM are an extremist group because you’re not black and haven’t spent a life time on the receiving end of institutional racism and societal bigotry and abuse? I wonder if you’d have the freedom to take the knee, if those the poppy represents hadn’t died for today. Interesting thought 🤔
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 14:56:35 GMT 1
Maybe you believe BLM are an extremist group because you’re not black and haven’t spent a life time on the receiving end of institutional racism and societal bigotry and abuse? I wonder if you’d have the freedom to take the knee, if those the poppy represents hadn’t died for today. Interesting thought 🤔 So those men and women died for our right to take the knee and stand up for black lives, and to decide if we wear a poppy or not? Gosh you’re right, this gets more and more interesting!
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 6, 2020 15:02:18 GMT 1
I think most people deem BLM an extremist movement because of their stated aims, their words, their actions...
I don't know whether people just aren't aware of such things, whether they know of them but choose to look away, whether they know about them and support them or whatever. But its pretty clear looking to BLM that people are going to have very different opinions about the movement, its aims and its involvement in football. And looking to their aims, their words their actions, I think that's perfectly acceptable.
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Post by Valerioch on Dec 6, 2020 15:14:38 GMT 1
I wonder if you’d have the freedom to take the knee, if those the poppy represents hadn’t died for today. Interesting thought 🤔 So those men and women died for our right to take the knee and stand up for black lives, and to decide if we wear a poppy or not? Gosh you’re right, this gets more and more interesting! If your going to deliberately misquote me, and what I meant, there really is no point in replying
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Post by frankwellshrews on Dec 6, 2020 15:19:13 GMT 1
Maybe you believe BLM are an extremist group because you’re not black and haven’t spent a life time on the receiving end of institutional racism and societal bigotry and abuse? I wonder if you’d have the freedom to take the knee, if those the poppy represents hadn’t died for today. Interesting thought 🤔
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Post by staffordshrew on Dec 6, 2020 16:04:20 GMT 1
The poppy is a mark of respect, but we are also free to wear one or not. I am a little uncomfortable that it's exclusive to the British Legion, when I wear one I am also thinking of what those in bombed out houses in London, Liverpool, Coventry, etc. and working in munitions factories, etc. in Britain went through too.
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Post by ssshrew on Dec 6, 2020 16:13:33 GMT 1
It s exclusive because they produce them but I am sure they would respect the right of anyone who wears one to remember who they choose. In fact, thinking about it, perhaps it’s not a bad thing to have something and a special time of the year to do just that - stop, think and remember whatever we may choose.
Without the poppy how many of us would remember every year
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Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Dec 6, 2020 16:36:06 GMT 1
The poppies sold by the British Legion are exclusive because they are made by disabled ex servicemen in their London factory and have been since 1922.
I don’t know who makes the various broaches and badges you can get now but I hope the British Legion get royalties as theirs is the original idea of using poppies for remembrance and using the money raised to support their charity.
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Post by another fine mess on Dec 6, 2020 16:46:03 GMT 1
Of course the players are well within their right to take the knee in support of whatever cause or movement they wish to show support for. Likewise, fans are well within their right to voice their displeasure at the support shown (to what is seen as a far left political movement and the language, the vandalism and the violence that surrounds it). Or rather they should be... As I suppose likewise the clubs are well within their right to act on this and looking to the reaction on social media, you have calls to see fans banned, clubs required to play behind closed doors, some suggesting deducting points. Let's hope clubs show an ounce of common sense and don't get caught up in all that sort of nonsense. But it wouldn't surprise me, they've messed this up from the start and they may continue to do so. Have we ever seen such a reaction to an anti-racism campaign before? Have we seen "Kick it out" booed? "Not today or any day"? No idea but I suspect not. But then I don't recall "Kick It Out" graffiti on the Cenotaph or demands to defund the police or do away with capitalism or anti-Semitic tweets being a part of that. And so its pretty clear to most as to what the difference is this time around. That some find that difficult to accept is beyond me. I couldn't put it better.
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Post by Pilch on Dec 6, 2020 16:59:29 GMT 1
Of course the players are well within their right to take the knee in support of whatever cause or movement they wish to show support for. Likewise, fans are well within their right to voice their displeasure at the support shown (to what is seen as a far left political movement and the language, the vandalism and the violence that surrounds it). Or rather they should be... As I suppose likewise the clubs are well within their right to act on this and looking to the reaction on social media, you have calls to see fans banned, clubs required to play behind closed doors, some suggesting deducting points. Let's hope clubs show an ounce of common sense and don't get caught up in all that sort of nonsense. But it wouldn't surprise me, they've messed this up from the start and they may continue to do so. Have we ever seen such a reaction to an anti-racism campaign before? Have we seen "Kick it out" booed? "Not today or any day"? No idea but I suspect not. But then I don't recall "Kick It Out" graffiti on the Cenotaph or demands to defund the police or do away with capitalism or anti-Semitic tweets being a part of that. And so its pretty clear to most as to what the difference is this time around. That some find that difficult to accept is beyond me. I couldn't put it better. imagine if we had remembrance sunday every week
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Post by neilsalop on Dec 6, 2020 17:02:22 GMT 1
Some of the comments on Facebook about the Rainbow Laces yesterday make me think that we, as a group of supporters, aren't that much better than the neanderthals in Millwall.
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Dec 6, 2020 17:04:05 GMT 1
I couldn't put it better. imagine if we had remembrance sunday every week Remembrance Sunday has already become Remembrance November, with each and every club trying to outdo each other with their shows of remembrance
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 17:09:00 GMT 1
Of course, one way to discredit any movement that asks hard questions of society and in particular the 'establishment' is for people the establishment and others to call in 'extremist' To label them extremist is to label every single person who takes the knee, or looks at BLM and supports it as an extremist, which is of course nonsenses. This includes the Millwall and Derby players who enjoy the fruits of neo-liberal capitalism. The other day we had people calling out a member of the board (rightly) for using the term fascist. The official UK website is here and distances itself from the USA and other BLM movements. www.blacklivesmatter.uk/To label Marxist ideology as extremist tells you all you need to know about how far to the right, the right has become.
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Post by martinshrew on Dec 6, 2020 17:31:52 GMT 1
Some of the comments on Facebook about the Rainbow Laces yesterday make me think that we, as a group of supporters, aren't that much better than the neanderthals in Millwall. I'm not on Facebook, could you share a few examples?
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Post by blamber on Dec 6, 2020 17:56:54 GMT 1
Why can't we support Kick It Out instead? Non political and non divisive. The problem with BLM is that it can also cause resentment by disenfranchised, struggling white communities who feel excluded and have few opportunities themselves. Time to move on from BLM and knee taking and promote racial equality and fair opportunities for ALL of society. I think now would be a good time to stop this but still have Kick It Out on all shirts as a reminder that racism must not be tolerated.
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Post by martinshrew on Dec 6, 2020 18:10:41 GMT 1
Why can't we support Kick It Out instead? Non political and non divisive. The problem with BLM is that it can also cause resentment by disenfranchised, struggling white communities who feel excluded and have few opportunities themselves. Time to move on from BLM and knee taking and promote racial equality and fair opportunities for ALL of society. I think now would be a good time to stop this but still have Kick It Out on all shirts as a reminder that racism must not be tolerated. Quite right.
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Post by thesensationaljt on Dec 6, 2020 18:10:43 GMT 1
Why can't we support Kick It Out instead? Non political and non divisive. The problem with BLM is that it can also cause resentment by disenfranchised, struggling white communities who feel excluded and have few opportunities themselves. Time to move on from BLM and knee taking and promote racial equality and fair opportunities for ALL of society. I think now would be a good time to stop this but still have Kick It Out on all shirts as a reminder that racism must not be tolerated. Well said.
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Post by R6ix on Dec 6, 2020 18:54:27 GMT 1
Taking the knee is a worthy gesture that has gone on too long and lost its value. The issue that should be addressed is why there are so few black or brown faces in boardrooms and FA committees. Even more egregious is the lack of black managers and coaches given the numbers of black players who have come into the game during the past 20 plus years. On a slightly similar topic, I think there are too many minutes silences/applauses before games. I couldn’t believe the one for Maradonna last week. intresting one, but i feel to be in a position to be in a boardroom or comitee you must persevere and work your way to the top,you cannot just appoint someone regardless purely to fill a race or gender quota;im sure there must be players taking the knee due to pressure to do so or feel if they dont they might be labeled.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2020 19:16:55 GMT 1
The problem with BLM is that it can also cause resentment by disenfranchised, struggling white communities who feel excluded and have few opportunities themselves. Yes, and God forbid white communities should feel left out!
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