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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 13:58:55 GMT 1
Daniels and Pugh have offered us improvement in some areas but I would be very wary of offering them longer contracts on big wages for us. Surely up and coming players like Millar is the best way to spend our resources. they are just too slow, ive not seen daniels make a tackle yet, he just backs of and backs off and the opponent just waits until a pass cross is available and its thats simple, as for pugh, whalley was doing a fine job down the left before he got injured, we have 2 or 3 options down the right, their signings were surprising and had potential but it hasnt worked out, sad but true
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 14:04:54 GMT 1
i feel like i could have this conversation for the rest of my life players have contracts, sometimes depending on how many games they have played or havent played , in january we might trigger a clause to get rid of them for peanuts even if they have no clause sometimes its in the players best interest to accept a pay off and find another club, if say donald love is on 2k a week and has 6 months left thats £50kish we've budgeted to pay him even if we pay him off £25k , that is a saving of £25k on the budget, how much will miller be ? £10k maybe ? A different but related point, we wouldn't need to discuss paying them off if they were in the squad. They are both good enough to be back up players and in my view we should not have got ourselves in the position where two talented senior pros are paid to do nowt. Plus it runs against your much espoused view that we are on a financial knife-edge and wanting SR to leave is the equivalent to wanting us to go bust...the Love/Goss issue is the other side of the same coin. good enough based on what ? your opinion of seeing them briefly once since lockdown in a game v crewe reserves they are not in the squad due to rule limitations etc for all you and i know they might have a contract that is heavily based around pay to play and are both picking up peanuts each week i used to like reserve games, you could pick up a lot of information and see who was worthy of a game and who wasnt but where is our reserves these days , long gone to save money
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 14:16:28 GMT 1
A different but related point, we wouldn't need to discuss paying them off if they were in the squad. They are both good enough to be back up players and in my view we should not have got ourselves in the position where two talented senior pros are paid to do nowt. Plus it runs against your much espoused view that we are on a financial knife-edge and wanting SR to leave is the equivalent to wanting us to go bust...the Love/Goss issue is the other side of the same coin. good enough based on what ? your opinion of seeing them briefly once since lockdown in a game v crewe reserves they are not in the squad due to rule limitations etc for all you and i know they might have a contract that is heavily based around pay to play and are both picking up peanuts each week i used to like reserve games, you could pick up a lot of information and see who was worthy of a game and who wasnt but where is our reserves these days , long gone to save money No, based on the performances they've put in since they've joined. Neither have been stellar but given the financial limitations both seem more than good enough to be squad players. Just my opinion, you are entitled to yours. Of course I don't know the fine print of their contracts say but your financial argument is a weak one as we're playing new players to replace them in the squad and as a result are paying them to do nothing. At a time when we are pleading poverty and sat in the relegation zone.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Nov 22, 2020 14:17:54 GMT 1
Sunderland Manager history FROM TO Phil Parkinson 17 Oct, 2019 Present James Fowler 08 Oct, 2019 17 Oct, 2019 Jack Ross 25 May, 2018 08 Oct, 2019 Robbie Stockdale 30 Apr, 2018 25 May, 2018 Chris Coleman 19 Nov, 2017 30 Apr, 2018 Robbie Stockdale 03 Nov, 2017 19 Nov, 2017 Simon Grayson 29 Jun, 2017 03 Nov, 2017 David Moyes 23 Jul, 2016 22 May, 2017 it doesnt get much better prior ro moyes its not always the manager thats the problem, its how the club is run So based on this, are you suggesting that the problem is how the club is run? Can you expand on this? We've now reached peak Pilch; he's even chucking the chairman and the CEO under the bus to protect Ricketts.
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 14:22:58 GMT 1
So based on this, are you suggesting that the problem is how the club is run? Can you expand on this? We've now reached peak Pilch; he's even chucking the chairman and the CEO under the bus to protect Ricketts. you really are ignorant pal, when they get rid of ricketts which i think will be this week, the next manager will be yet another cheap stop gap, most likely whitehead
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Post by Exkeeper on Nov 22, 2020 14:29:36 GMT 1
The manager answered truthfully, the question should not be directed at him. If (when) the club decide his time has come, all negotiations regarding any mutual arrangement should be in private between both parties. Then and only then, should we expect a statement from either or both parties as the issue is between the employer and employee so is basically none of our sodding business. I suspect that nothing will happen until the club have identified a successor, who they are fairly certain will accept the position and fits in with any financial constraints. Those suggesting putting Edwards in charge are to me, happy to accept our position in the drop zone but at least we will have their favourite at the helm.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 14:32:21 GMT 1
How you can compare Sunderland to us, it's lost on me I'm sorry.
Is the argument now not about the manager but how our club is run, and if so in what way?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 14:45:26 GMT 1
Win on Sunday and we'll have made over £40k out of the FA cup, none of which we should have budgeted for, plus a more modest extra sum for progressing in the pizza cup. Ricketts has six months left on a salary that we can probably assume is approximately £100k-£200k. The problem with this argument is the Club didn't budget for Covid-19 either and the money from any Cup run isn't extra bonus money like any other season, bit now essential. Not that I disagree that there are serious problems on the pitch and an inability to sort it out from Ricketts.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 14:50:56 GMT 1
You’ve literally just called somebody else a fake news coward on another thread Hypocritical much? Very poor standard to set i would normally agree axcept the guy is a cowardly faker You're Donald Trump and I claim my £5.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Nov 22, 2020 14:53:25 GMT 1
We've now reached peak Pilch; he's even chucking the chairman and the CEO under the bus to protect Ricketts. you really are ignorant pal, when they get rid of ricketts which i think will be this week, the next manager will be yet another cheap stop gap, most likely whitehead Easy on the personal abuse Pilch, you'll have to ban yourself at this rate.
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 14:55:08 GMT 1
How you can compare Sunderland to us, it's lost on me I'm sorry. Is the argument now not about the manager but how our club is run, and if so in what way? i was merely pointing out that changing a manager can make matters worse, and if the manager is at fault for picking the wrong players, who picks the manager , and will him picking another one make a big difference ?
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 14:56:34 GMT 1
you really are ignorant pal, when they get rid of ricketts which i think will be this week, the next manager will be yet another cheap stop gap, most likely whitehead Easy on the personal abuse Pilch, you'll have to ban yourself at this rate. We've now reached peak Frankwell shrew
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Post by South Stand Salopian on Nov 22, 2020 15:05:24 GMT 1
I'm going to put my neck on the block here and say I think Sam will be gone by Wednesday night this week. Hopefully you’re right. Today or tomorrow preferably. The damage is being done, we don’t need any more. With every loss we suffer more wins that the new manager will need to get to keep us up.
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Post by South Stand Salopian on Nov 22, 2020 15:10:01 GMT 1
Can this be right? All speculation at the mo; Proud Salopian estimated a £379k drop in gate receipts yesterday. Let's assume there's some adjustments for consessions etc and call it £300k. Presumably sponsorship goes down if you get relegated? No idea how much the going rate is but assume we will be less attractive to shirt sponsors and advertising hoardings due to being in a lower division with less potential for tv coverage etc. No idea how to estimate the value of that due to lack of info. Lower attendances and just lower profile in general will likely lead to less merch sales, less money taken at the concession stands too. Tv deal? Is it much lower on div 2? I'll estimate an impact on revenues of between 500 and 750 grand for the year. Now let's look at how much we can reduce expenditure by; wage cap goes from £2.5m to £1.5m which, assuming we actually are within the cap in nominal terms (which no one knows, despite people confidently asserting they do) could more than offset the impact of lost revenue, more so when you consider that we are leaner in terms of backroom staff now. I would guess the players have a relegation clause that will reduce wages but I'd also assume we might have to sell some players which could further mitigate the loss of income. Lower policing and stewarding costs too? I could definitely see an argument that this scenario winds up more profitable for the club but underpinning that argument is the assumption that we have a decent run at league 2 and don't completely burn up the goodwill of supporters in all senses of the word (gans as well as sponsors etc) which is by no means a given. We've been s**t this season (not to put too fine a point on it) plus as much as there are those of us who are keen to get back in to the stands, there are other more casual fans who have got used to not attending and might not rush back to watch a club that's had a truly awful season and seemingly resigned itself to relegation. What would be the impact of losing another 500 - 1000 off the gate next year? Another £250k - £300k? Suddenly it doesn't look so rosy does it? On the other side it's basically fork out an estimated £75 - £150k (??) to pay up Sam's contract (and I'm not even convinced we would have to do that, fairly sure contracts must have wised up by now to include performance related break clauses etc) plus whatever the cost of recruitment is and any difference between Sam's wages and the replacement for the rest of the season. Let's call it £200k, which I think is very much a worst case scenario. There's no doubt it's a highly material sum to the club. Is it enough to be worth getting relegated over though? Would it be a significant enough amount to require us to close our youth academy (which I thought Sam was suggesting we do anyway, not so long ago?) probably not really, considering we'd have to incur a further cash cost to make people redundant and the academy itself must have contributed several million back to the club since inception in the form of transfer fees and savings on recruitment costs. Is it worth us taking the hit to our reputation by basically admitting we are happy to be a league 1 and 2 yoyo club? I think this is the real problem. Since the nadir of relegation to the conference the club's broadly been on an upward trajectory and support levels have responded to that, to such an extent that I think people rake it for granted that it will remain the case indefinitely. I think that's a dangerous assumption. I also think the aspiration to become a yoyo club is potentially danaging to everything from future recruitment of players, management and off field staff as well as sponsors and investment. People respond to ambition, not mediocrity. we certainly will miss out on at least half a dozen big name home league games oh and the hefty cost of policing those game too i believe the tv money is the same for league 1 & 2 but may be wrong, and not sure why sponsorship would be any different in those divisions either, a sucessful season could be beneficial to sponsors the only difference i can see in the 2 leagues is we start as one of the favourites and yet only 1 bad season from dropping out of the league if this was a normal season its pretty clear sam would be long gone but its not a normal season, its far from it and the future of our and most football clubs is unknown and unsecure, as the lincoln CE stated the other day on a podcast about money in football, its not about winning at the moment, its about surviving EFL TV money Championship 80% League One 12% League Two 8% So TV money will be slashed by a third with relegation.
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rayh
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Post by rayh on Nov 22, 2020 15:12:13 GMT 1
I'm by no means a ricketts fan! But really thought we had some rotten luck at Ipswich. I'm hoping a win tues and then do well in the cup sat.things might start to pick up especially if we got a big club in next round!. Things might start to look up .. here's hoping.
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Post by randomtictacs on Nov 22, 2020 15:30:13 GMT 1
Hmmmmmmm. No. I just don't get all this early season flapping. Remember a poor start to the season two years ago? A less experienced Sam Ricketts was wheeled in and managed to keep an arguably lower quality squad he didn't know, in this league. There was also a good cup run. Next season a small improvement in league position, similar cup run.
So why are some people totally convinced that he is now not capable of doing the same ? I'm not. I think he obviously has plenty still to learn as a manager, but good enough to keep this squad in this league, even after the dire league points haul so far? Yes, I think so. The record also clearly shows so.
We've only been well-beaten once in 17 matches so far this season.
That's really not a relegation fodder stat. A single (2 or more goal) beating in 17 just isn't. If we were getting badly outplayed and losing by 2,3, or 4 every other game. Then its time to worry.
Stop panicking people. Stick with it until Xmas. The signs are there that the new system is beginning to work.
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Post by gtismygod on Nov 22, 2020 15:36:37 GMT 1
People assume that bringing a new manager in and getting relegated are mutually exclusive. In reality, we could very easily get a new manager in and still get relegated which would be a double blow for the club financially.
I think whoever we bring in will struggle with this squad. Full of old players who can’t run, midfielders and wide players who can’t create chances, three calamitous centre halves and a comical keeper.
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Post by South Stand Salopian on Nov 22, 2020 15:46:33 GMT 1
I see Pilch has deleted his embarrassing post suggesting we’ll only lose £40k TV money a season if we get relegated.
It’s actually over £300k:
Championship - £7m League One - £1.05m League Two £0.7m
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 16:01:55 GMT 1
I see Pilch has deleted his embarrassing post suggesting we’ll only lose £40k TV money a season if we get relegated. It’s actually over £300k: Championship - £7m League One - £1.05m League Two £0.7m i wasnt suggesting anything, i had a question mark at the end of my question, i added a random number as i didnt know, as your stats meant nothing, i've now checked and from what i see the tv deal is £119,000,000 a year thats £595K L1 £397K L2 £200K ish where are your figures for tv from ?
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 16:09:47 GMT 1
People assume that bringing a new manager in and getting relegated are mutually exclusive. In reality, we could very easily get a new manager in and still get relegated which would be a double blow for the club financially. I think whoever we bring in will struggle with this squad. Full of old players who can’t run, midfielders and wide players who can’t create chances, three calamitous centre halves and a comical keeper. that is my big issue, and the double blow can only possibly be achieved by firstly sacking ricketts i know nobody ever wants relegation but we are in an unpredictable time just a little bit of damned luck on the pitch would go a long way to helping
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Post by South Stand Salopian on Nov 22, 2020 16:14:43 GMT 1
I see Pilch has deleted his embarrassing post suggesting we’ll only lose £40k TV money a season if we get relegated. It’s actually over £300k: Championship - £7m League One - £1.05m League Two £0.7m i wasnt suggesting anything, i had a question mark at the end of my question, i added a random number as i didnt know, as your stats meant nothing, i've now checked and from what i see the tv deal is £119,000,000 a year thats £595K L1 £397K L2 £200K ish where are your figures for tv from ? Daily Mail article dated April 2020 I read Championship get £7m a season TV money so as that’s 80%, so 100% is £8.75m. £1.75m left over: Remaining 12% = £1.05m Remaining 8% = £0.7m Whether it’s £200k or £300k, it’s far more than the price of paying Ricketts off on TV money alone before we even start talking about attendances and other things.
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Post by neilsalop on Nov 22, 2020 16:23:56 GMT 1
Total guesswork but I guess it’ll be about £70k to pay Ricketts off. Maybe less if we allow him to manage another club before the summer. Won’t cost us any more if Edwards becomes player manager anyhow. The players will listen, respect and respond to him. As has been said attendances of League One and Two are vastly different home and away. There’s big clubs in League One who will sell out the away end, look at the teams in League Two can you see any of them selling out? Maybe Bradford or Tranmere if there’s anything riding on it at the end of the season. Also extra money from being in a higher league. Think I would be concerned if they turned to Edwards full time right now. We need someone in there with experience of difficult times and how to turn things round. Edwards as caretaker yes, Edward as No2 to the new man yes, Edwards as a future manager yes. But the position we are in right now isn't for a rookie manager. Anyone on here remember that Turner bloke we had as player manager in the '70s? Pretty sure he had no managerial experience either.
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 16:27:49 GMT 1
£7,000,000 x 24 = £168M £168M=80% 100%=£210M
the sky deal is £119m not £210M
thats £595K L1 £397K L2
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Post by Exkeeper on Nov 22, 2020 16:32:32 GMT 1
Think I would be concerned if they turned to Edwards full time right now. We need someone in there with experience of difficult times and how to turn things round. Edwards as caretaker yes, Edward as No2 to the new man yes, Edwards as a future manager yes. But the position we are in right now isn't for a rookie manager. Anyone on here remember that Turner bloke we had as player manager in the '70s? Pretty sure he had no managerial experience either. No, but he took over a team that was winning for fun, and therein lies the difference.
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Post by South Stand Salopian on Nov 22, 2020 16:33:21 GMT 1
£7,000,000 x 24 = £168M £168M=80% 100%=£210M the sky deal is £119m not £210M thats £595K L1 £397K L2 So we’re letting Quest and BBC/ITV news show the highlights for free are we?
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Post by neilsalop on Nov 22, 2020 16:34:43 GMT 1
Anyone on here remember that Turner bloke we had as player manager in the '70s? Pretty sure he had no managerial experience either. No, but he took over a team that was winning for fun, and therein lies the difference. Fair point, but who says Edwards couldn't be an even better manager than Turner?
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Post by Exkeeper on Nov 22, 2020 16:54:58 GMT 1
No, but he took over a team that was winning for fun, and therein lies the difference. Fair point, but who says Edwards couldn't be an even better manager than Turner? Has he got all his coaching badges? Times have changed since the late 70s. Jake King was a man we all wanted to succeed and he had some managerial experience at the Ducks Shed, but that didn’t work out and he was removed on a Sunday lunchtime, after an awful performance at Peterborough.
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 16:56:01 GMT 1
£7,000,000 x 24 = £168M £168M=80% 100%=£210M the sky deal is £119m not £210M thats £595K L1 £397K L2 So we’re letting Quest and BBC/ITV news show the highlights for free are we? i dont know, twice in the last month at least i posted on here asking if anyone knows the exact difference in league 1 and 2, nobody did, pab asked the same question earlier, nobody did, perhaps find out first and then debate it, find out too about police costs in L1 & L2 for us, players wages how much sacking 2 managers in less than 6 months costs etc
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Post by Exkeeper on Nov 22, 2020 17:02:34 GMT 1
Fair point, but who says Edwards couldn't be an even better manager than Turner? Has he got all his coaching badges? Times have changed since the late 70s. Jake King was a man we all wanted to succeed and he had some managerial experience at the Ducks Shed, but that didn’t work out and he was removed on a Sunday lunchtime, after an awful performance at Peterborough. Mr Turner was at the time of his appointment coaching the team, under Richie Barker, so had some experience in setting up the side tactically. I am pretty sure that that is not the case with Dave Edwards.
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Post by South Stand Salopian on Nov 22, 2020 17:03:52 GMT 1
So we’re letting Quest and BBC/ITV news show the highlights for free are we? i dont know, twice in the last month at least i posted on here asking if anyone knows the exact difference in league 1 and 2, nobody did, pab asked the same question earlier, nobody did, perhaps find out first and then debate it, find out too about police costs in L1 & L2 for us, players wages how much sacking 2 managers in less than 6 months costs etc Are you genuinely suggesting we’ll save money by getting relegated? It’s simply not the case. Truth is none of us know how much relegation will cost but well educated mathematics suggests the differences are staggering. Look at Frankwellshrews post.
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