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Post by frankwellshrews on Nov 22, 2020 12:26:06 GMT 1
its up at the end of the season im not sure what the issue is really, as i predicted last week, if we now dont win on tuesday, ricketts will be gone and whitehead with perhaps dave edwards helping him will be installed at caretakers and then the fickle fans can moan about bringing in a manager from the pool that roland has never gone anywhere near and still wont I wouldn't say its about being "fickle" Pilch. I just think its a good number of fans who aren't prepared to sacrifice our place in this division (after all the time and effort to get us here) for a young inexperienced manager who has been given plenty of time and support to show us he is capable of managing at this level but unfortunately, as yet, has failed to do do.
We're a fair way into the season now and as it is, things would indicate we're set to struggle and go down. If it comes to sticking with Ricketts and seeing Town play in the 4th division again or throwing the dice in an effort to keeping us in this division then I'll plump for the latter.
As I pointed out above, admin costs hace gone up hugely since league 1 days. Assuming that reflects the club's off field activities (happy to be corrected if wrong though, haven't read the accounting policies or director's reports to see if there's any more analysis) that doesn't speak to a club that would be happy with relegation, it speaks to a club that's trying to scale up and grow (make itself more attractive to sell? Who knows). Any long term fans of the club will testify to how much more of a professional outfit it is these days. A stinker of a manager doesn't really fit that narrative, and that's why I'm fairly sure we'll see a change when we have a bit more surety over what funds may or may not be available from the Prem.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Nov 22, 2020 12:29:53 GMT 1
The talk of us having a lack of money. We've signed Millar on loan from Australia until January, with an option to buy. From the comments by manager & player they seem to be hinting towards a longer deal. So if we've money for that.... We will have to have some players - the one rule we must adhere to in the January wundow is that we don't have players kicking their heels because they are not in the squad. Millar's come from a long way away, but that doesn't really make him expensive, if he's right for the squad then he could be invaluable to us. No I get that. But we either have money to afford to pay a fee for Millar's transfer fee / Ricketts payoff, or we don't.
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 12:35:10 GMT 1
I wouldn't say its about being "fickle" Pilch. I just think its a good number of fans who aren't prepared to sacrifice our place in this division (after all the time and effort to get us here) for a young inexperienced manager who has been given plenty of time and support to show us he is capable of managing at this level but unfortunately, as yet, has failed to do do.
We're a fair way into the season now and as it is, things would indicate we're set to struggle and go down. If it comes to sticking with Ricketts and seeing Town play in the 4th division again or throwing the dice in an effort to keeping us in this division then I'll plump for the latter.
As I pointed out above, admin costs hace gone up hugely since league 1 days. Assuming that reflects the club's off field activities (happy to be corrected if wrong though, haven't read the accounting policies or director's reports to see if there's any more analysis) that doesn't speak to a club that would be happy with relegation, it speaks to a club that's trying to scale up and grow (make itself more attractive to sell? Who knows). Any long term fans of the club will testify to how much more of a professional outfit it is these days. A stinker of a manager doesn't really fit that narrative, and that's why I'm fairly sure we'll see a change when we have a bit more surety over what funds may or may not be available from the Prem. which part of changing the manager doesnt gurantee anything are you not understanding ?
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 12:36:52 GMT 1
We will have to have some players - the one rule we must adhere to in the January wundow is that we don't have players kicking their heels because they are not in the squad. Millar's come from a long way away, but that doesn't really make him expensive, if he's right for the squad then he could be invaluable to us. No I get that. But we either have money to afford to pay a fee for Millar's transfer fee / Ricketts payoff, or we don't. shall i once again answer the same question you now asked twice today ? we will offload a player to pay for him
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 22, 2020 12:39:14 GMT 1
I wouldn't say its about being "fickle" Pilch. I just think its a good number of fans who aren't prepared to sacrifice our place in this division (after all the time and effort to get us here) for a young inexperienced manager who has been given plenty of time and support to show us he is capable of managing at this level but unfortunately, as yet, has failed to do do.
We're a fair way into the season now and as it is, things would indicate we're set to struggle and go down. If it comes to sticking with Ricketts and seeing Town play in the 4th division again or throwing the dice in an effort to keeping us in this division then I'll plump for the latter.
as i pointed out the other day, many of those fans used to moan when hurst was here, they screamed 2 seasons ago about us going down, they screamed the same last season in what turned out to be our 2nd most successful season in 30 years, lets remember shrewsbury town are a business, and since hurst arrived have made tidy profits every season, the next home game probably sees at a 1/10 favs to pick up a cheque for almost £100k with prospects of much more to come i also mentioned the other day, our chairman has a history of playing these cup games with a temporary manager in charge Each to their own as I don't see how that detracts from what I said above. We're one win in 12 for a reason. And if that is set continue then there is a very good chance we will go down. We're a fair way into the season now and we have a very good indication of where this is going and rather unsurprisingly, many Town fans would rather we avoid that end. I don't call that being fickle.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Nov 22, 2020 12:39:46 GMT 1
As I pointed out above, admin costs hace gone up hugely since league 1 days. Assuming that reflects the club's off field activities (happy to be corrected if wrong though, haven't read the accounting policies or director's reports to see if there's any more analysis) that doesn't speak to a club that would be happy with relegation, it speaks to a club that's trying to scale up and grow (make itself more attractive to sell? Who knows). Any long term fans of the club will testify to how much more of a professional outfit it is these days. A stinker of a manager doesn't really fit that narrative, and that's why I'm fairly sure we'll see a change when we have a bit more surety over what funds may or may not be available from the Prem. which part of changing the manager doesnt gurantee anything are you not understanding ? So, to clarify, we should never change the manager ever (because we can never guarantee it will make a difference)? You're right in principle of course, but even my 4 year old can probably figure out that your odds of it making a difference increase, the poorer your existing manager is performing.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 22, 2020 12:42:25 GMT 1
As I pointed out above, admin costs hace gone up hugely since league 1 days. Assuming that reflects the club's off field activities (happy to be corrected if wrong though, haven't read the accounting policies or director's reports to see if there's any more analysis) that doesn't speak to a club that would be happy with relegation, it speaks to a club that's trying to scale up and grow (make itself more attractive to sell? Who knows). Any long term fans of the club will testify to how much more of a professional outfit it is these days. A stinker of a manager doesn't really fit that narrative, and that's why I'm fairly sure we'll see a change when we have a bit more surety over what funds may or may not be available from the Prem. which part of changing the manager doesnt gurantee anything are you not understanding ? But we know that. It goes without saying. But it does not mean supporters do not think a change is needed if they think sticking with Ricketts will mean relegation. If we thought he could keep us up then we'd be happy to stick with him. We don't think that judged on the football we have seen these last 12 league games.
You don't change manager unless you consider the current manager is not up to the task. So no, there is no guarantee a change will make a difference but you are prepared to make that change because you believe not to do so will see us relegated.
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 12:44:43 GMT 1
which part of changing the manager doesnt gurantee anything are you not understanding ? So, to clarify, we should never change the manager ever (because we can never guarantee it will make a difference)? You're right in principle of course, but even my 4 year old can probably figure out that your odds of it making a difference increase, the poorer your existing manager is performing. no, just to clarify, we should always change the manager, if we bring in a new manager a lose the next game, should we then change him as we will be worse off ? and hes not my manager, even a 4 year old would know that
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Post by zenfootball2 on Nov 22, 2020 12:49:57 GMT 1
which part of changing the manager doesnt gurantee anything are you not understanding ? But we know that. It goes without saying. But it does not mean supporters do not think a change is needed if they think sticking with Ricketts will mean relegation. If we thought he could keep us up then we'd be happy to stick with him. We don't think that judged on the football we have seen these last 12 league games.
You don't change manager unless you consider the current manager is not up to the task. So no, there is no guarantee a change will make a difference but you are prepared to make that change because you believe not to do so will see us relegated.
i thought he desreverd another season to see what he could do, he has brought in some good players but cant get them to win enough or defend, i like to see how the team are doing after 12 games but with 1 win 5 drawes 6 losses i feel he needs to go. "You don't change manager unless you consider the current manager is not up to the task. So no, there is no guarantee a change will make a difference but you are prepared to make that change because you believe not to do so will see us relegated." changing a manager is a risk but i agree with the above coments and it is the conclusion i have come to.
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 12:54:31 GMT 1
But we know that. It goes without saying. But it does not mean supporters do not think a change is needed if they think sticking with Ricketts will mean relegation. If we thought he could keep us up then we'd be happy to stick with him. We don't think that judged on the football we have seen these last 12 league games.
You don't change manager unless you consider the current manager is not up to the task. So no, there is no guarantee a change will make a difference but you are prepared to make that change because you believe not to do so will see us relegated.
i thought he desreverd another season to see what he could do, he has brought in some good players but cant get them to win or defend, 12 games 1 win 5 drawes 6 losses "You don't change manager unless you consider the current manager is not up to the task. So no, there is no guarantee a change will make a difference but you are prepared to make that change because you believe not to do so will see us relegated." which is the position i have come to. normally yes
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 12:57:15 GMT 1
Forget this guessing game nonsense about % of staying up with or without Ricketts. The only thing really we can discuss is facts. We have one league win in twelve, we’re third bottom and four points adrift already, with a huge squad and some good players which clearly Ricketts has absolutely no idea how to get the best out of, I can respect everyone has opinions but I’m amazed anyone can be behind him still, it’s clear as day he needs to go. We have two players Sam brought to the club who will be on good wages who have been completely exiled from the league squad and replaced with loans. If Sam was a good manager he would work with Love and Goss, his players, and make it work, not just push them to one side and continue signing players elsewhere. We play a different formation or lineup every week. Its clear watching the team they don’t know their jobs or trust each other. We’ve been mind numbingly boring going forwards ever since he over, and now he’s decided to try and be more attacking we’ve turned into a complete mess at the back. The odd person on here will blame the players, and they obviously need to take some responsibility, but Ricketts signed them, trains and selects them. Mistakes happen but repeated mistakes and poor results suggests deeper lying issues beyond the players. For what my opinion is worse, you don’t consistently perform the way we do and throw away result after result if you 100% trust and play for your manager. I’m not going to sit and count up the stats for Ricketts but a quick glance online suggest he’s managed 96 games for us, winning 28, drawing 31 and losing 35. Taking into consideration many of those wins have been cup matches, in particular cup matches against weak FL Trophy opponents. His actual league record must be very poor. Let’s not forget the complete joke of a performance at Anfield where he set up us to defend against a bunch of kids, I’m still convinced any other League One side going there that night would have take the game to Liverpool and won, we went to defend and not lose, embarrassing night in our history. I feel for Ricketts because it’s obvious he wants to be successful and backs himself, but since he’s been here there’s a long list of problems and downfalls in his management, the list for the things he’s improved and positive things you can say about is reign is a short one. Started off with good intent about facts but was almost totally speculation opinions and fake news You say we play a different formation line every week ? how did today differ to last weeks ? many of the cup games were against weak opponents ? yeah and the rest against higher league opposition and oh dear we lost at a packed anfield in the cup , so did a full strength Everton Facts ? Err no love and goss ? more total clueless speculation I said we play a different formation or lineup every week, a manager who knows his best team and knows how to get the best out of them doesn’t do that, how many different formations and stating XIs have we had in our 12 league games? Many of the cup games were against weaker opponents, either in divisions below us or terrible under 23 sides, there’s far more wins against lesser opponents then stronger ones in the cups since he over so yes, that point totally stands. The Everton argument is absolute nonsense and you know it. We played a complete youth side, Everton played a team including Adrian, Gomez, Milner, Minamino, Origi and Lallana, another one of your arguments which has no substance behind it. Compare that team to the one we played, your point is completely invalid again. I said before I respect anyone’s opinion and if people are backing him then so be it, but your arguments on almost every thread on this forum don’t make any sense. If you think he’s the right man or you think the club can’t afford to sack him then that’s fine, you can have that opinion, but the arguments you use to back up your view point are often just nonsense. I genuinely don’t think you believe half the stuff you post on here, there’s a reason almost everyone disagrees when you post.
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 13:04:37 GMT 1
Started off with good intent about facts but was almost totally speculation opinions and fake news You say we play a different formation line every week ? how did today differ to last weeks ? many of the cup games were against weak opponents ? yeah and the rest against higher league opposition and oh dear we lost at a packed anfield in the cup , so did a full strength Everton Facts ? Err no love and goss ? more total clueless speculation I said we play a different formation or lineup every week, a manager who knows his best team and knows how to get the best out of them doesn’t do that, how many different formations and stating XIs have we had in our 12 league games? Many of the cup games were against weaker opponents, either in divisions below us or terrible under 23 sides, there’s far more wins against lesser opponents then stronger ones in the cups since he over so yes, that point totally stands. The Everton argument is absolute nonsense and you know it. We played a complete youth side, Everton played a team including Adrian, Gomez, Milner, Minamino, Origi and Lallana, another one of your arguments which has no substance behind it. Compare that team to the one we played, your point is completely invalid again. I said before I respect anyone’s opinion and if people are backing him then so be it, but your arguments on almost every thread on this forum don’t make any sense. If you think he’s the right man or you think the club can’t afford to sack him then that’s fine, you can have that opinion, but the arguments you use to back up your view point are often just nonsense. I genuinely don’t think you believe half the stuff you post on here, there’s a reason almost everyone disagrees when you post. we almost beat a liverpool side that had 8 players from the side that won the european cup we played at anfield in front of 52,000 and from what i could make out it was a game that some of the best tactical advisers and spent all week planning, every free kick and corner was carefully planned, we got robbed of a goal and lost to an own goal some of our players had stagefright, s**t happens if you are still moaning almost a year on that we didnt beat liverpool at liverpool then pal, go dream elsewhere, its pathetic i've been to histon, blyth spartans and others, i can tell you what s**t looks like in the fa cup
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Post by Valerioch on Nov 22, 2020 13:06:27 GMT 1
I said we play a different formation or lineup every week, a manager who knows his best team and knows how to get the best out of them doesn’t do that, how many different formations and stating XIs have we had in our 12 league games? Many of the cup games were against weaker opponents, either in divisions below us or terrible under 23 sides, there’s far more wins against lesser opponents then stronger ones in the cups since he over so yes, that point totally stands. The Everton argument is absolute nonsense and you know it. We played a complete youth side, Everton played a team including Adrian, Gomez, Milner, Minamino, Origi and Lallana, another one of your arguments which has no substance behind it. Compare that team to the one we played, your point is completely invalid again. I said before I respect anyone’s opinion and if people are backing him then so be it, but your arguments on almost every thread on this forum don’t make any sense. If you think he’s the right man or you think the club can’t afford to sack him then that’s fine, you can have that opinion, but the arguments you use to back up your view point are often just nonsense. I genuinely don’t think you believe half the stuff you post on here, there’s a reason almost everyone disagrees when you post. we almost beat a liverpool side that had 8 players from the side that won the european cup we played at anfield in front of 52,000 and from what i could make out it was a game that some of the best tactical advisers and spent all week planning, every free kick and corner was carefully planned, we got robbed of a goal and lost to an own goal some of our players had stagefright, s**t happens if you are still moaning almost a year on that we didnt beat liverpool at liverpool then pal, go dream elsewhere, its pathetic i've been to histon, blyth spartans and others, i can tell you what s**t looks like in the fa cup We didn’t get robbed of a goal at Anfield Those were the rules last season. Same rules for us as the other 91 teams
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Post by tdk on Nov 22, 2020 13:07:45 GMT 1
Quite agree Pilch, I for one would be delighted if Ron Atkinson was still Man Utd manager and sir Alex had stayed in Scotland
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 13:10:51 GMT 1
Quite agree Pilch, I for one would be delighted if Ron Atkinson was still Man Utd manager and sir Alex had stayed in Scotland
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Post by Valerioch on Nov 22, 2020 13:16:10 GMT 1
Quite agree Pilch, I for one would be delighted if Ron Atkinson was still Man Utd manager and sir Alex had stayed in Scotland You’ll know better than me considering your a big Man U fan, but did Fergie ever have Man U staring down the barrel of a humiliating and financially crippling relegation? Did Fergie ever win 3 in 26?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Nov 22, 2020 13:21:02 GMT 1
Quite agree Pilch, I for one would be delighted if Ron Atkinson was still Man Utd manager and sir Alex had stayed in Scotland Right. But if I got tdk's point right then Fergie was only given the chance to manager at Manchester United because someone else was sacked. Replacing Atkinson in November with Manchester struggling and according to wiki "in danger of getting relegated".
So if they thought as you do now, they would have stuck with Atkinson. Because changing manager is no guarantee things will improve.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Nov 22, 2020 13:28:12 GMT 1
No I get that. But we either have money to afford to pay a fee for Millar's transfer fee / Ricketts payoff, or we don't. shall i once again answer the same question you now asked twice today ? we will offload a player to pay for him right, so we can't afford to sack the manager because we don't have the money but we can buy a new player for a transfer fee because we will sell other players to fund it And which players are these going to be? And which players have impressed so much that other clubs will want to buy them or have shown they have potential?
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 13:28:59 GMT 1
Norwich 2 - 1 Man Utd Aston Villa 0 - 0 Man Utd Man Utd 0 - 1 Nottm Forest Man Utd 2 - 0 Luton Nottm Forest 2 - 0 Man Utd Man Utd 1 - 1 Arsenal Millwall 0 - 0 Man Utd Man Utd 0 - 2 Derby Charlton 1 - 0 Man Utd Man Utd 0 - 1 Coventry Man Utd 1 - 0 Wimbledon Southampton 2 - 1 Man Utd QPR 3 - 2 Man Utd Man Utd 1 - 2 Everton Man Utd 4 - 1 Arsenal Crystal Palace 1 - 1 Man Utd Derby 2 - 0 Man Utd Man Utd 0 - 2 Norwich Everton 3 - 2 Man Utd
3 win, 3 draws in 19 games in his 3rd/4th season
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 13:30:25 GMT 1
shall i once again answer the same question you now asked twice today ? we will offload a player to pay for him right, so we can't afford to sack the manager because we don't have the money but we can buy a new player for a transfer fee because we will sell other players to fund it And which players are these going to be? And which players have impressed so much that other clubs will want to buy them or have shown they have potential? for the 3rd time, i'll answer the question, we'll offload a player to pay for it did i say sell ?
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Post by stfcfan87 on Nov 22, 2020 13:39:00 GMT 1
right, so we can't afford to sack the manager because we don't have the money but we can buy a new player for a transfer fee because we will sell other players to fund it And which players are these going to be? And which players have impressed so much that other clubs will want to buy them or have shown they have potential? for the 3rd time, i'll answer the question, we'll offload a player to pay for it did i say sell ? oh we are going to pay someone off to leave? but i thought we didn't have the money to pay off someone else to leave, hence why we are sticking with him despite the dreadful results?
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 13:41:03 GMT 1
Sunderland Manager history
FROM TO Phil Parkinson 17 Oct, 2019 Present James Fowler 08 Oct, 2019 17 Oct, 2019 Jack Ross 25 May, 2018 08 Oct, 2019 Robbie Stockdale 30 Apr, 2018 25 May, 2018 Chris Coleman 19 Nov, 2017 30 Apr, 2018 Robbie Stockdale 03 Nov, 2017 19 Nov, 2017 Simon Grayson 29 Jun, 2017 03 Nov, 2017 David Moyes 23 Jul, 2016 22 May, 2017
it doesnt get much better prior ro moyes
its not always the manager thats the problem, its how the club is run
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 13:44:31 GMT 1
for the 3rd time, i'll answer the question, we'll offload a player to pay for it did i say sell ? oh we are going to pay someone off to leave? but i thought we didn't have the money to pay off someone else to leave, hence why we are sticking with him despite the dreadful results? I suppose it depends on what happens with Daniels and Pugh. If they do go in January then their salaries can go elsewhere.
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 13:47:02 GMT 1
for the 3rd time, i'll answer the question, we'll offload a player to pay for it did i say sell ? oh we are going to pay someone off to leave? but i thought we didn't have the money to pay off someone else to leave, hence why we are sticking with him despite the dreadful results? i feel like i could have this conversation for the rest of my life players have contracts, sometimes depending on how many games they have played or havent played , in january we might trigger a clause to get rid of them for peanuts even if they have no clause sometimes its in the players best interest to accept a pay off and find another club, if say donald love is on 2k a week and has 6 months left thats £50kish we've budgeted to pay him even if we pay him off £25k , that is a saving of £25k on the budget, how much will miller be ? £10k maybe ?
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Nov 22, 2020 13:48:51 GMT 1
Fergie had already had significant experience managing and major success at Aberdeen, Ricketts had half a season in the Conference. Are we really at that level of argument that Ricketts is being compared to one of, if not the, greatest manager ever?
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Post by Pilch on Nov 22, 2020 13:51:52 GMT 1
Fergie had already had significant experience managing and major success at Aberdeen, Ricketts had half a season in the Conference. Are we really at that level of argument that Ricketts is being compared to one of, if not the, greatest manager ever? as usual someone ran out of debate and resorted to bringing man u into the conversation, i was happy to keep them amused
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Post by harboroughshrew on Nov 22, 2020 13:52:21 GMT 1
Daniels and Pugh have offered us improvement in some areas but I would be very wary of offering them longer contracts on big wages for us. Surely up and coming players like Millar is the best way to spend our resources.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 13:54:32 GMT 1
oh we are going to pay someone off to leave? but i thought we didn't have the money to pay off someone else to leave, hence why we are sticking with him despite the dreadful results? i feel like i could have this conversation for the rest of my life players have contracts, sometimes depending on how many games they have played or havent played , in january we might trigger a clause to get rid of them for peanuts even if they have no clause sometimes its in the players best interest to accept a pay off and find another club, if say donald love is on 2k a week and has 6 months left thats £50kish we've budgeted to pay him even if we pay him off £25k , that is a saving of £25k on the budget, how much will miller be ? £10k maybe ? A different but related point, we wouldn't need to discuss paying them off if they were in the squad. They are both good enough to be back up players and in my view we should not have got ourselves in the position where two talented senior pros are paid to do nowt. Plus it runs against your much espoused view that we are on a financial knife-edge and wanting SR to leave is the equivalent to wanting us to go bust...the Love/Goss issue is the other side of the same coin.
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Post by comradecharles on Nov 22, 2020 13:56:07 GMT 1
Daniels and Pugh have offered us improvement in some areas but I would be very wary of offering them longer contracts on big wages for us. Surely up and coming players like Millar is the best way to spend our resources. To me they were only ever panic signings to plug gaping holes in our squad caused by absolutely shoddy summer recruitment.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 13:57:09 GMT 1
Sunderland Manager history FROM TO Phil Parkinson 17 Oct, 2019 Present James Fowler 08 Oct, 2019 17 Oct, 2019 Jack Ross 25 May, 2018 08 Oct, 2019 Robbie Stockdale 30 Apr, 2018 25 May, 2018 Chris Coleman 19 Nov, 2017 30 Apr, 2018 Robbie Stockdale 03 Nov, 2017 19 Nov, 2017 Simon Grayson 29 Jun, 2017 03 Nov, 2017 David Moyes 23 Jul, 2016 22 May, 2017 it doesnt get much better prior ro moyes its not always the manager thats the problem, its how the club is run So based on this, are you suggesting that the problem is how the club is run? Can you expand on this?
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