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Post by Pilch on Jun 30, 2020 15:21:05 GMT 1
Why do people have to make this so binary? It is perfectly reasonable to think that black lives matter but oppose Black Lives Matter.
Public figures who have expressed support for BLM are going to be embarrassed once their campaign ideas become better known. If you go to their website, Facebook pages, Twitter output and funding page, you’ll see that they want to overthrow capitalism, disrupt the traditional family unit, abolish prisons and to develop “strategies to abolish the police”.
Now, you may love those ideas, but I don’t think they should be given unthinking support and publicity on TV sports and news channels.
As mentioned above, Kier Starmer is trying to backtrack now. Shame he didn’t think before he rushed to legitimise an extreme and fairly unpleasant political organisation.
PS No one should be forced to wear any symbol they don’t agree with – including a poppy. that was my whole issue really, except I dont think it was binary enough, I said it should have been 'all lives matter'. those that care would know what it means, those that dont care would also think they know what it means, and those who dont want to look deeper than the message itself would also still have a simple clear message and not what might seem like a one sided message. The message we do have might be clear to those who didn't need it, but its confused many so it clearly needed to be simpler, 'all lives matter'
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 15:35:31 GMT 1
On my ward, when a patient has a cardiac arrest, we use the defib on that patient. We don’t just zap everyone.
In no way does that mean though that we don’t care about everyone else.
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Jun 30, 2020 15:51:37 GMT 1
He's literally saying if you don't believe what the media tells you here's some alternative things to look through. He's merely offering a source for a different perspective, I don't see the issue? shhhh, your not allowed an opinion on climate change on B&A that differs from the majority blueandamber.proboards.com/thread/99577/climate-strikesLe Tiss is literally backing up someone who is denying climate change is a thing. That is the guy's whole persona. Nothing to do with media bias. How can you be bias about climate change, honestly? Every major political party considers climate change a thing, it's not just a niche blue and amber view.... christ
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Post by Pilch on Jun 30, 2020 16:06:26 GMT 1
On my ward, when a patient has a cardiac arrest, we use the defib on that patient. We don’t just zap everyone. In no way does that mean though that we don’t care about everyone else. of course you do, well all know that but if you were to start a campaign saying "ward 24 matters" then what would happen ? send out a simple pic to the world of a Red Cross and you dont even need words to describe what you do
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Post by Pilch on Jun 30, 2020 16:10:28 GMT 1
Le Tiss is literally backing up someone who is denying climate change is a thing. That is the guy's whole persona. Nothing to do with media bias. How can you be bias about climate change, honestly? Every major political party considers climate change a thing, it's not just a niche blue and amber view.... christ I should have added the smiley, christ
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 16:11:18 GMT 1
I suppose it depends on whether people on ward 24 are discriminated against based on their colour.
Because, their lives matter too.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 16:19:09 GMT 1
I would be very grateful if anyone could link to any stated goal within BLM to abolish capitalism or defund the police, because it's not something I can find anywhere on their website. It is a very broad umbrella and I have no doubt that there are individuals associated with it who hold such beliefs and even chapters within in that might state these as objectives. I don't see anything that makes the overarching movement inherently "nasty" though, but perhaps I'm missing something. I can't find it either, on both the US, or the UK website. In fact I was never able to find the the claims made by people on here, but I maybe looking in the wrong place.
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Post by Pilch on Jun 30, 2020 16:29:38 GMT 1
I suppose it depends on whether people on ward 24 are discriminated against based on their colour. Because, their lives matter too. I've been waiting for a zap since feb still waiting
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Jun 30, 2020 16:56:10 GMT 1
Le Tiss is literally backing up someone who is denying climate change is a thing. That is the guy's whole persona. Nothing to do with media bias. How can you be bias about climate change, honestly? Every major political party considers climate change a thing, it's not just a niche blue and amber view.... christ I should have added the smiley, christ Don't really get what you're on about but you do you
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Jun 30, 2020 17:25:25 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 17:25:25 GMT 1
On my ward, when a patient has a cardiac arrest, we use the defib on that patient. We don’t just zap everyone. In no way does that mean though that we don’t care about everyone else. of course you do, well all know that but if you were to start a campaign saying "ward 24 matters" then what would happen ? send out a simple pic to the world of a Red Cross and you dont even need words to describe what you do If ward 24 was being neglected and badly treated, and I explained and demonstrated it, I’m pretty sure most of my colleagues on other wards would agree. Not childishly stamp their feet screaming my ward matters to!!!! 👍 (Note: Ward 24s not my ward btw👍)
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Post by Pilch on Jun 30, 2020 17:25:38 GMT 1
I should have added the smiley, christ Don't really get what you're on about but you do you what I meant was, as with most topics on here lately we have a few you look down and shout at anyone who's opinion dares to stray from the majority of opinions, and the 'climate thread' was no different
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Jun 30, 2020 17:33:45 GMT 1
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Post by MartinB on Jun 30, 2020 17:33:45 GMT 1
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Post by another fine mess on Jun 30, 2020 17:42:17 GMT 1
I would be very grateful if anyone could link to any stated goal within BLM to abolish capitalism or defund the police, because it's not something I can find anywhere on their website. It is a very broad umbrella and I have no doubt that there are individuals associated with it who hold such beliefs and even chapters within in that might state these as objectives. I don't see anything that makes the overarching movement inherently "nasty" though, but perhaps I'm missing something. I can't find it either, on both the US, or the UK website. In fact I was never able to find the the claims made by people on here, but I maybe looking in the wrong place. I hope this helps.
Abolish prisons:
Abolish police: uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund “Developing and delivering training, police monitoring and strategies for the abolition of police”.
Abolish borders:
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jun 30, 2020 18:37:52 GMT 1
It is clearly possible to agree with the statement "Black lives matter" without signing up to all of the aims of a fairly left wing American pressure group.
Just like you can support the Palestinian cause without being anti-semitic.
But the danger for me is when people mix the two and throw you into a camp based on some public level of virtue signalling.
It becomes something of a meaningless gesture when people are doing it to fulfill their image contract rather than because they believe it.
Lots of people feel a sense of unease about major organizations seemingly going out of their way to appear the most "woke", and you sort of wonder if they are doing it because they really believe it or because they want to connect to potential customers through it.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 30, 2020 19:04:32 GMT 1
The link to the official verified Twitter account for BLM UK is... Official page for #BlackLivesMatterUKThe link to the funding site is also included here. There they include their aims as among them is... ...a commitment to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately harm black people in Britain and around the world.Developing and delivering training, police monitoring and strategies for the abolition of police.
And when we're also seeing stuff such as this... ...then its hardly surprising we have the likes of Starmer now looking to clarify his support and Le Tissier questioning whether he should be wearing a label badge promoting the movement. Be interesting to see how this develops as I doubt it will be the last message we'll see from this movement that'll cause some controversy. And again it'll be interesting to see how those who have so far endorsed the movement act as a result.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 19:12:31 GMT 1
I can't find it either, on both the US, or the UK website. In fact I was never able to find the the claims made by people on here, but I maybe looking in the wrong place. I hope this helps.
Abolish prisons:
Abolish police: uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund “Developing and delivering training, police monitoring and strategies for the abolition of police”.
Abolish borders:
Yes, thanks. I was looking in the wrong place. As of 13 June 31,000 people have donated to the cause. That isn't going to change a lot of anything. Their aims are unrealistic and unachievable and hardly a threat to anyone's way of life. I think most would people realise this. The argument that they are a threat to Liberal Democracy, or a threat to the any establishment, is laughable.
The Nuclear family is already been disrupted and it has been for decades. I was brought up by a single parent, and a lot of families these days are 'extended'. We have same sex partners who have children, we have single people who have children. I could probably count on my one hand the number of 'Nuclear families' I actually know. If people are troubled by this, then that's up to them, but it shouldn't be used as a distraction from what is a message that is very relevant.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 19:18:57 GMT 1
Abolish the police and replace it with something that keeps law and order for everyone equally.
Abolish capitalism abolish male domination abolish white supremacy abolish institutional racism.
And free Palestine.
Not sure how you could do it but they seem damn fine aims to me.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jun 30, 2020 19:20:28 GMT 1
The message is relevant but it detracts the the message to cloak it in a very distinct political framework.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 19:34:27 GMT 1
The message is relevant but it detracts the the message to cloak it in a very distinct political framework. Which is utterly meaningless as it's unachievable. Like the Green Party manifesto, or UKIPs. I would argue the message is being lost, because the press (and people are on here), are concentrating on the political aims, which when you think about, is just one part of what the broader movement aims to achieve. Which, is what the 'establishment' want. Including Sir Keir Starmer. I will add that a lot of people over emphasis the influence the far left has on how we actually live or lives, and any meaningful changes they do achieve, apart from raise awareness. To read some people and media, you'd think we were on the edge of social, pollical and economic revolution.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 30, 2020 19:54:19 GMT 1
The message is relevant but it detracts the the message to cloak it in a very distinct political framework. It's a powerful message too, one that can be used to cloak the political aims of what is clearly a political movement. As it does seem that many are unaware of the movements listed aims. Although as time moves on you would expect more people to start looking a little closer and start paying some attention to what goes hand in hand with the message (and with this movement).
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jun 30, 2020 22:08:10 GMT 1
The message is relevant but it detracts the the message to cloak it in a very distinct political framework. It's a powerful message too, one that can be used to cloak the political aims of what is clearly a political movement. As it does seem that many are unaware of the movements listed aims. Although as time moves on you would expect more people to start looking a little closer and start paying some attention to what goes hand in hand with the message (and with this movement).
Yes exactly - like the BNP in reverse.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jun 30, 2020 22:10:49 GMT 1
The message is relevant but it detracts the the message to cloak it in a very distinct political framework. Which is utterly meaningless as it's unachievable. Like the Green Party manifesto, or UKIPs.
The political purpose of any organization is not meaningless. It is fundamental to who they are.
UKIP changed the political landscape of the United Kingdom forever, and ultimately have probably ended the United Kingdom.
Black Lives Matter. Very much.
But I could not align myself with the movement, even if I do align myself with the central tenet of it.
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Post by LetchworthShrew on Jun 30, 2020 22:25:09 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 5:05:58 GMT 1
Which is utterly meaningless as it's unachievable. Like the Green Party manifesto, or UKIPs.
The political purpose of any organization is not meaningless. It is fundamental to who they are.
UKIP changed the political landscape of the United Kingdom forever, and ultimately have probably ended the United Kingdom.
Black Lives Matter. Very much.
But I could not align myself with the movement, even if I do align myself with the central tenet of it.
It's utterly meaningless, because BLM will never have any power to implement its policies, nor will the Greens, nor will UKIP, is the point. But, you're right about UKIP influencing UK politics, let's see if BLM influence attitudes in a similar way. You only have read through the Dianne Abbott thread to see how that's going.
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Post by Valerioch on Jul 1, 2020 7:08:18 GMT 1
Which is utterly meaningless as it's unachievable. Like the Green Party manifesto, or UKIPs.
The political purpose of any organization is not meaningless. It is fundamental to who they are.
UKIP changed the political landscape of the United Kingdom forever, and ultimately have probably ended the United Kingdom.
Black Lives Matter. Very much.
But I could not align myself with the movement, even if I do align myself with the central tenet of it.
Couldn’t agree more. It’s funny to now see people like Starmer and organisations such as the Premier League back tracking from BLM as a left wing political movement. If only they had gone to the massive effort of sticking BLM in google and doing a bit of reading 🙄
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Post by Valerioch on Jul 1, 2020 7:11:43 GMT 1
It is clearly possible to agree with the statement "Black lives matter" without signing up to all of the aims of a fairly left wing American pressure group. Just like you can support the Palestinian cause without being anti-semitic. But the danger for me is when people mix the two and throw you into a camp based on some public level of virtue signalling. It becomes something of a meaningless gesture when people are doing it to fulfill their image contract rather than because they believe it. Lots of people feel a sense of unease about major organizations seemingly going out of their way to appear the most "woke", and you sort of wonder if they are doing it because they really believe it or because they want to connect to potential customers through it. Agree again... I wouldn’t trust the Premier League’s virtue signalling actions as far as I could throw them, such as all shirts imprinted with the BLM logo and flashing BLM on the screen all the time and BLM on all shirts. They’ve now backtracked somewhat, as will others. If it was a publicity stunt as I expect, it won’t work with the silent majority of people
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jul 1, 2020 7:30:50 GMT 1
The political purpose of any organization is not meaningless. It is fundamental to who they are.
UKIP changed the political landscape of the United Kingdom forever, and ultimately have probably ended the United Kingdom.
Black Lives Matter. Very much.
But I could not align myself with the movement, even if I do align myself with the central tenet of it.
If only they had gone to the massive effort of sticking BLM in google and doing a bit of reading 🙄 Looking to their announcement yesterday it seems they have finally got around to reading the small print. English football already has anti-racism campaigns, UEFA has "No to Racism". All of which are apolitical, all of which we can get behind and support. They should have looked to have pushed one of these to the hilt throughout the remainder of the season. Can't help but feel they have made a right mess of this.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jul 1, 2020 8:56:59 GMT 1
If only they had gone to the massive effort of sticking BLM in google and doing a bit of reading 🙄 Looking to their announcement yesterday it seems they have finally got around to reading the small print. English football already has anti-racism campaigns, UEFA has "No to Racism". All of which are apolitical, all of which we can get behind and support. They should have looked to have pushed one of these to the hilt throughout the remainder of the season. Can't help but feel they have made a right mess of this. Yes exactly! I would have thought someone, somewhere, may have considered the words "Kick it out"!
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Jul 1, 2020 8:58:38 GMT 1
The political purpose of any organization is not meaningless. It is fundamental to who they are.
UKIP changed the political landscape of the United Kingdom forever, and ultimately have probably ended the United Kingdom.
Black Lives Matter. Very much.
But I could not align myself with the movement, even if I do align myself with the central tenet of it.
It's utterly meaningless, because BLM will never have any power to implement its policies, nor will the Greens, nor will UKIP, is the point. But, you're right about UKIP influencing UK politics, let's see if BLM influence attitudes in a similar way. You only have read through the Dianne Abbott thread to see how that's going. You're confusing political parties and political pressure groups NRA will never have any political power and yet they yield huge political influence. Same with Black Lives Matter, as a pressure group.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 9:22:35 GMT 1
It's utterly meaningless, because BLM will never have any power to implement its policies, nor will the Greens, nor will UKIP, is the point. But, you're right about UKIP influencing UK politics, let's see if BLM influence attitudes in a similar way. You only have read through the Dianne Abbott thread to see how that's going. You're confusing political parties and political pressure groups NRA will never have any political power and yet they yield huge political influence. Same with Black Lives Matter, as a pressure group. I am not confusing anything. UKIP and the Greens are nothing but pressure groups dressed as political parties for legitimacy. They can talk about their aims all they want, it isn't going to happen. BLM isn't influencing anything, that's clear from what is talked on here and in the media. As for 'Kick it out'. That's going well. www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jan/30/football-related-racist-incidents-sharp-rise-police-kick-it-outAnd there's the thing. BLM can only see change through political means. Unsurprisingly.
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