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Post by venceremos on Jun 29, 2020 17:30:11 GMT 1
Well, it looks like it's been an interesting afternoon here! Can't say I'm sorry to see 4martini's account deleted. He seems to be a bigoted individual whose barely digestible ramblings consisted of contradictions and plain nastiness, with little of any interest, merit or humour, so good riddance.
For what it's worth I don't think Le Tissier should be obliged to sport a BLM badge, any more than I think every footballer and everyone on TV should have to wear a poppy for two weeks every autumn. The absence of outward display doesn't indicate a lack of support and certainly shouldn't be taken for the opposite of that. Le Tissier does seem to be an unsympathetic character - ok, a bit of a dick actually - but he's entitled to make his own choice and not be criticised for that.
However, I do think the BLM backlash is unwarranted. Too many people are seeing BLM in narrow, almost party political, terms. Yes, I know there are things that some will object to but, if you follow its recent tweets, it has explained in very reasoned terms its support for Palestinian people and exactly what 'defund the police' means (it isn't a call for abolition). BLM is a broad-based civil rights movement, not a political party, and can be wholeheartedly supported without subscribing to everything that some are attributing to it (rightly or wrongly - I do have doubts about the motivation of some of its critics).
All disrupters of the existing order are attacked as extremists. The civil rights movement in the 1960s was portrayed in appallingly negative terms yet only a few racist cranks would now contend that was justified. Similarly Nelson Mandela and the ANC in South Africa were attacked as communist terrorists - still are by some weird outliers. If you always take your lead from the established view, the prospect of any meaningful change will frighten you.
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Post by venceremos on Jun 29, 2020 17:31:12 GMT 1
How many people have read the Black Lives Matter campaign aims? It would appear Matt Le Tissier has, which is why he doesn't support the campaign itself. What I don't understand is why the Premier League has been supporting a campaign against Police forces in particularly the United States Police forces? I totally support the idea that the only label that matters is are you a nice person or not a nice person. I really don't care about anything else. To give an example I think it is great that we have a supporters group like Proud Salopians but it would be great if they decided to wind the group up as it wasnt needed. Sadly I don't think it will happen in my life time What are those aims? I'm presuming you've read them too?
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Post by MartinB on Jun 29, 2020 17:41:54 GMT 1
How many people have read the Black Lives Matter campaign aims? It would appear Matt Le Tissier has, which is why he doesn't support the campaign itself. What I don't understand is why the Premier League has been supporting a campaign against Police forces in particularly the United States Police forces? I totally support the idea that the only label that matters is are you a nice person or not a nice person. I really don't care about anything else. To give an example I think it is great that we have a supporters group like Proud Salopians but it would be great if they decided to wind the group up as it wasnt needed. Sadly I don't think it will happen in my life time What are those aims? I'm presuming you've read them too? Its a call to action against State sanctioned violence against Black people and anti Black racism. Firstly do you think in this Country there is state sanctioned violence against black people? What about racism against anybody with any other colour skin other than black? I don't mean white here. Football should be about sport not about political matters. A campaign about football for all regardless of race, region, gender, sexually orientation and everything covered by the Equality Act I have no problem with, in fact would fully support
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Post by venceremos on Jun 29, 2020 17:57:04 GMT 1
What are those aims? I'm presuming you've read them too? Its a call to action against State sanctioned violence against Black people and anti Black racism. Firstly do you think in this Country there is state sanctioned violence against black people? What about racism against anybody with any other colour skin other than black? I don't mean white here. Football should be about sport not about political matters. A campaign about football for all regardless of race, region, gender, sexually orientation and everything covered by the Equality Act I have no problem with, in fact would fully support I don't know about state sanctioned but certainly state tolerated. I've read this weekend of two cases of heavy handed policing involving innocent black people. Racism is never justified but every action is not racially motivated. However, it's unarguable that racism informed the creation and building of the British Empire and there has been a continuing legacy ever since. 'Past mistakes and misdeeds must be fully acknowledged, action to immediately dismantle systemic racism, systematic racial discrimination and social and criminal injustices to create fairer and just systems where all people are equal, not simply written in policies, bills, criminal acts that are not worth the paper they are written on.'
This is taken directly from the blacklivesmatter.uk website. I don't see anything wrong with this aim, do you?
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Post by barrynic on Jun 29, 2020 18:02:32 GMT 1
Sky is now owned by Comcast a very left wing company and it seems they are pulling the strings regarding the promoting of BLM on Sky Sport.
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Post by MartinB on Jun 29, 2020 18:09:37 GMT 1
I detest racism and always acknowledge that I have been very lucky to be born a white male in the UK.
Football has a long way to go to sort its equality issues. I would prefer it to work on those issues rather than a than the aims of the Black Lives Matters campaign
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jun 29, 2020 18:20:14 GMT 1
How many people have read the Black Lives Matter campaign aims? It would appear Matt Le Tissier has, which is why he doesn't support the campaign itself. What I don't understand is why the Premier League has been supporting a campaign against Police forces in particularly the United States Police forces? I totally support the idea that the only label that matters is are you a nice person or not a nice person. I really don't care about anything else. To give an example I think it is great that we have a supporters group like Proud Salopians but it would be great if they decided to wind the group up as it wasnt needed. Sadly I don't think it will happen in my life time Would appear so considering the one tweet he put out mentioned " defunding the police and ending capitalism". So it suggests he has taken a look to their funding site and the aims of the movement. Would appear he doesn't support those aims and would rather have not endorsed them be wearing a lapel badge. Perhaps we might be hearing more in the press over the next couple of days. Its all a bit weird this now. Anyone who has taken time out knows that this is a political movement. Only yesterday BLM UK was tweeting support for Palestine and suggesting that British politics is gagged when it comes to being critical of Zionism and Israel. Who is doing the gagging wasn't made clear but of course plenty were quick to point out that this is an antisemitic trope (that Israel and in turn the Jews have so much power they can control and silence others). I really don't think its a surprise that some might not want to go anywhere near this movement, that they wouldn't want to endorse it in any way. For me the Premier League shouldn't have gone anywhere near it in the first place. Saw Starmer earlier doing his best to distance himself from the aim of defunding the police. Spoke about the BLM moment rather than the movement. Whether that'll work for him I have no idea. But I think plenty rushed in here without, I don't think, thinking too much about it.
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Post by Pilch on Jun 29, 2020 18:41:38 GMT 1
Well, it looks like it's been an interesting afternoon here! Can't say I'm sorry to see 4martini's account deleted. He seems to be a bigoted individual whose barely digestible ramblings consisted of contradictions and plain nastiness, with little of any interest, merit or humour, so good riddance. For what it's worth I don't think Le Tissier should be obliged to sport a BLM badge, any more than I think every footballer and everyone on TV should have to wear a poppy for two weeks every autumn. The absence of outward display doesn't indicate a lack of support and certainly shouldn't be taken for the opposite of that. Le Tissier does seem to be an unsympathetic character - ok, a bit of a dick actually - but he's entitled to make his own choice and not be criticised for that. However, I do think the BLM backlash is unwarranted. Too many people are seeing BLM in narrow, almost party political, terms. Yes, I know there are things that some will object to but, if you follow its recent tweets, it has explained in very reasoned terms its support for Palestinian people and exactly what 'defund the police' means (it isn't a call for abolition). BLM is a broad-based civil rights movement, not a political party, and can be wholeheartedly supported without subscribing to everything that some are attributing to it (rightly or wrongly - I do have doubts about the motivation of some of its critics). All disrupters of the existing order are attacked as extremists. The civil rights movement in the 1960s was portrayed in appallingly negative terms yet only a few racist cranks would now contend that was justified. Similarly Nelson Mandela and the ANC in South Africa were attacked as communist terrorists - still are by some weird outliers. If you always take your lead from the established view, the prospect of any meaningful change will frighten you. he deleted his own account after starting a parting shot thread which I didnt even read but moved I suspect its the 2nd time this year hes done that as I think he was our 'dirty Chinese ****ers' poster on that original corona virus thread
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 29, 2020 18:53:28 GMT 1
Sky is now owned by Comcast a very left wing company and it seems they are pulling the strings regarding the promoting of BLM on Sky Sport. You're quite right there. Sports shouldn't be politicised unless it's at an individual level; the action is then fully chosen and understood by that individual.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2020 19:15:43 GMT 1
What are those aims? I'm presuming you've read them too? Football should be about sport not about political matters. A campaign about football for all regardless of race, region, gender, sexually orientation and everything covered by the Equality Act I have no problem with, in fact would fully support Which is fine Martin, but www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jan/30/football-related-racist-incidents-sharp-rise-police-kick-it-outSo, by default it becomes political as various anti-racist groups challenge this rise. On the other hand The Football Lads Alliance is a grass roots right-wing political movement, which can be said to reflect certain attitudes in society. There's no escaping this and if football is serious about being a community activity it needs to stand against this and show solidarity. You mention the Equality 2010, well they need to abide by it in more ways than one I imagine.
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Post by barrynic on Jun 29, 2020 19:27:57 GMT 1
One thing we all stand for on Blue and Amber.....
A HATRED OF RACISM I ALL ITS FORMS.
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Post by Pilch on Jun 29, 2020 19:39:44 GMT 1
One thing we all stand for on Blue and Amber..... A HATRED OF RACISM I ALL ITS FORMS. we've only ever had 1 serious racist post on here, and the police chased it up for ages, I dont think they collared anyone but they certainly visited places and spoke to people about it, Ant knows more about the story and it was quite a while ago now
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Post by Worthingshrew on Jun 29, 2020 20:02:20 GMT 1
No employer should use emotional blackmail to enforce the wearing of poppies or BLM badges or anything else. They are irrelevant to how well the person does their job.
However remember Rodney Marsh losing his Sky job as a pundit for making a “joke” about the tsunami.
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Post by venceremos on Jun 29, 2020 20:29:19 GMT 1
Sky is now owned by Comcast a very left wing company and it seems they are pulling the strings regarding the promoting of BLM on Sky Sport. A few snippets from Comcast's Wiki entry: The company is often criticized by both the media and its own staff for its less upstanding policies regarding employee relations.
Comcast has also earned a reputation for being anti-union...…….. A dispute in 2004 with CWA, a labor union that represented many employees at Comcast's offices in Beaverton, Oregon, led to allegations of management intimidating workers, requiring them to attend anti-union meetings and unwarranted disciplinary action for union members.
The billionaire controller of 33% of the voting power within the company (Brian L Roberts) "in 2010, …. was one of the highest paid executives in the United States, with total compensation of about $31 million."
Unless you class supporting Obama as 'very left wing', what criteria are you applying to describe Comcast in that way?
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Post by Pilch on Jun 29, 2020 20:35:18 GMT 1
No employer should use emotional blackmail to enforce the wearing of poppies or BLM badges or anything else. They are irrelevant to how well the person does their job. However remember Rodney Marsh losing his Sky job as a pundit for making a “joke” about the tsunami. if only he'd spat in someones face, he'd have been ok
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Post by venceremos on Jun 29, 2020 20:35:45 GMT 1
I detest racism and always acknowledge that I have been very lucky to be born a white male in the UK. Football has a long way to go to sort its equality issues. I would prefer it to work on those issues rather than a than the aims of the Black Lives Matters campaign A lot of footballers don't seem to agree. Football has had long enough to resolve its equality issues. It hasn't been able to, largely because they're inextricably linked to wider society. Like it or not, football and sport don't exist in a bubble and those political issues relevant to it are unavoidable. I would suggest people listen to BLM and do their own research, rather than rely on the wearisomely negative interpretations of some who seem wedded to the status quo.
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Post by MartinB on Jun 29, 2020 21:08:06 GMT 1
I would suggest people hear the slogan "Black Lives Matter" and dont read any further.
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Post by jimmelrosesjaw on Jun 29, 2020 23:14:47 GMT 1
No employer should use emotional blackmail to enforce the wearing of poppies or BLM badges or anything else. They are irrelevant to how well the person does their job. However remember Rodney Marsh losing his Sky job as a pundit for making a “joke” about the tsunami. if only he'd spat in someones face, he'd have been ok Indeed, had it been you or I spitting in somebody’s face, particularly during the current climate, we would be accommodated in her majesty’s pleasure.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 9:15:27 GMT 1
I would suggest people hear the slogan "Black Lives Matter" and dont read any further. On the other hand, you can be part of something, but not agree with everything they stand for. I don't agree 100% with Green Party policy for example. And, nobody who is active BLM is in a position to enable revolutionary change, which is why the movement isn't a threat to Liberal Democracy, Capitalism, or established power structures. It is however, as useful excuse for some to deflect from the actual issues at hand, particularly in the US.
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Jun 30, 2020 9:44:16 GMT 1
Got nothing against him not wanting to wear it - people shouldn't be forced to endorse a campaign they aren't comfortable with.
On the other side he is in my eyes a grade A nutjob - No one in today's day and age can honestly refuse to believe Climate change is a thing, it's literally a scientific fact.
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 30, 2020 9:58:27 GMT 1
Got nothing against him not wanting to wear it - people shouldn't be forced to endorse a campaign they aren't comfortable with. On the other side he is in my eyes a grade A nutjob - No one in today's day and age can honestly refuse to believe Climate change is a thing, it's literally a scientific fact. I think people can knock the politicising and question some of the figures around climate change. Like anything it's good to research and look into it in full not just accept the first set of statistics.
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Post by sheltonsalopian on Jun 30, 2020 10:06:19 GMT 1
Got nothing against him not wanting to wear it - people shouldn't be forced to endorse a campaign they aren't comfortable with. On the other side he is in my eyes a grade A nutjob - No one in today's day and age can honestly refuse to believe Climate change is a thing, it's literally a scientific fact. I think people can knock the politicising and question some of the figures around climate change. Like anything it's good to research and look into it in full not just accept the first set of statistics. Normally I'd agree that there's two sides to every story but as far as I'm aware he's in full climate change denier mode. You can argue about the rate of global warming but very hard to argue it doesn't exist.
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Post by venceremos on Jun 30, 2020 10:19:27 GMT 1
I would suggest people hear the slogan "Black Lives Matter" and dont read any further. … which no doubt is very convenient for some, and perhaps those who have helped foster a negative impression of BLM in such people's minds ought to be honest enough to admit the status quo is fine with them.
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Post by venceremos on Jun 30, 2020 10:25:20 GMT 1
Got nothing against him not wanting to wear it - people shouldn't be forced to endorse a campaign they aren't comfortable with. On the other side he is in my eyes a grade A nutjob - No one in today's day and age can honestly refuse to believe Climate change is a thing, it's literally a scientific fact. I think people can knock the politicising and question some of the figures around climate change. Like anything it's good to research and look into it in full not just accept the first set of statistics. If, as a lay person, you research the issue beyond the shouting on social media, there's only one conclusion - the climate is heating, and human activity is almost certainly contributing to that. Even many of those with a vested interest in the status quo - like the oil companies - aren't in denial about it. It's not 'politicised', it is political because it requires the active participation of governments for changes to be made. How can it not be political?
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Post by blamber on Jun 30, 2020 11:36:49 GMT 1
What's political about the poppy, as some on here have been comparing to BLM? Last time I checked the poppy is seen as a symbol of remembrance for ALL those that have fallen in war - whatever their colour or creed. No one is forced to wear a poppy although some organisations like the BBC ask their presenters and guests to wear one. Usually they do so. BLM is undeniably a political movement - defund the police and dismantle capitalism are two of their stated aims. That's what Le Tissier is 'reviewing' and whether his stand against racism aligns with the 'nonsense', as Keir Starmer described the BLM's political aims. Many people feel uncomfortable with the BLM and their objectives whereas most would be hard pushed to set out the poppy's political agenda.
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Post by martinshrew on Jun 30, 2020 12:53:25 GMT 1
I think people can knock the politicising and question some of the figures around climate change. Like anything it's good to research and look into it in full not just accept the first set of statistics. Normally I'd agree that there's two sides to every story but as far as I'm aware he's in full climate change denier mode. You can argue about the rate of global warming but very hard to argue it doesn't exist. He's literally saying if you don't believe what the media tells you here's some alternative things to look through. He's merely offering a source for a different perspective, I don't see the issue?
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Post by Pilch on Jun 30, 2020 13:05:23 GMT 1
Normally I'd agree that there's two sides to every story but as far as I'm aware he's in full climate change denier mode. You can argue about the rate of global warming but very hard to argue it doesn't exist. He's literally saying if you don't believe what the media tells you here's some alternative things to look through. He's merely offering a source for a different perspective, I don't see the issue? shhhh, your not allowed an opinion on climate change on B&A that differs from the majority blueandamber.proboards.com/thread/99577/climate-strikes
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Post by another fine mess on Jun 30, 2020 13:29:32 GMT 1
Why do people have to make this so binary? It is perfectly reasonable to think that black lives matter but oppose Black Lives Matter.
Public figures who have expressed support for BLM are going to be embarrassed once their campaign ideas become better known. If you go to their website, Facebook pages, Twitter output and funding page, you’ll see that they want to overthrow capitalism, disrupt the traditional family unit, abolish prisons and to develop “strategies to abolish the police”.
Now, you may love those ideas, but I don’t think they should be given unthinking support and publicity on TV sports and news channels.
As mentioned above, Kier Starmer is trying to backtrack now. Shame he didn’t think before he rushed to legitimise an extreme and fairly unpleasant political organisation.
PS No one should be forced to wear any symbol they don’t agree with – including a poppy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 13:35:30 GMT 1
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Post by lenny on Jun 30, 2020 15:04:41 GMT 1
I would be very grateful if anyone could link to any stated goal within BLM to abolish capitalism or defund the police, because it's not something I can find anywhere on their website.
It is a very broad umbrella and I have no doubt that there are individuals associated with it who hold such beliefs and even chapters within in that might state these as objectives. I don't see anything that makes the overarching movement inherently "nasty" though, but perhaps I'm missing something.
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