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Post by northwestman on Dec 11, 2019 19:16:46 GMT 1
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Post by barrynic on Dec 11, 2019 19:20:32 GMT 1
I am sure Boris will sort it.
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Post by cheggersdrinkspop on Dec 11, 2019 19:40:38 GMT 1
This is a perfect example of why any service should avoid nationalisation. Local authorities are a classic example of non business people running a business, a very big one at that, and never being in a position where they become responsible or culpable for their short comings. I know they have been victims of cost cutting but you tell me any business that hasn't. The issue lies with this complete lack of business sense has they seem to think they can carry on as usual, which they do, as someone will come and bung the cash hole up again. I have always said that they should be run by experienced business people and if people fail to perform they should be culpable, like most people at work, and not keep plodding on regardless based on a popularity contest and peeing our money down the drain. Incidentally I have dealt with local authorities on business basis and they beggar belief, they are without doubt the worst to deal and treat you with a certain amount of disrespect on the basis they will do everything on their terms, regardless of whether this is the right commercial decision.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 20:59:25 GMT 1
This is a perfect example of why any service should avoid nationalisation. Local authorities are a classic example of non business people running a business, a very big one at that, and never being in a position where they become responsible or culpable for their short comings. I know they have been victims of cost cutting but you tell me any business that hasn't. The issue lies with this complete lack of business sense has they seem to think they can carry on as usual, which they do, as someone will come and bung the cash hole up again. I have always said that they should be run by experienced business people and if people fail to perform they should be culpable, like most people at work, and not keep plodding on regardless based on a popularity contest and peeing our money down the drain. Incidentally I have dealt with local authorities on business basis and they beggar belief, they are without doubt the worst to deal and treat you with a certain amount of disrespect on the basis they will do everything on their terms, regardless of whether this is the right commercial decision. I was going to reply to this post at some length but I really cannot be arsed . Save to say on so many points you have demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of how local government works . Sorry , but there it is . By the way , I worked in local government for 38 years so I do have some idea how it works .
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Post by cheggersdrinkspop on Dec 11, 2019 21:20:31 GMT 1
I have dealt with local governments for many years in a business environment and as a tax paying customer, and your right I might not know how it works. In the same way i deal with other businesses in the same ways and i don't know how they work, but I get a much better experience as a business partner and customer.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 21:45:17 GMT 1
I have dealt with local governments for many years in a business environment and as a tax paying customer, and your right I might not know how it works. In the same way i deal with other businesses in the same ways and i don't know how they work, but I get a much better experience as a business partner and customer. Just to make it clear I’m not saying Shropshire Council is beyond criticism , far from it . To find such a hole in the budget is ridiculous . To my mind the Administration at the Shirehall is sadly lacking . A fair number of sitting Councillors are local businessmen ! To think that people in this County could be paying for services through their Council Tax which they are not going to receive come 20/21 is disgraceful . I do understand where you are coming from but involving the private sector in running the Administration is not a good idea in my view .
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Post by jamo on Dec 11, 2019 21:48:12 GMT 1
This is a perfect example of why any service should avoid nationalisation. Local authorities are a classic example of non business people running a business, a very big one at that, and never being in a position where they become responsible or culpable for their short comings. I know they have been victims of cost cutting but you tell me any business that hasn't. The issue lies with this complete lack of business sense has they seem to think they can carry on as usual, which they do, as someone will come and bung the cash hole up again. I have always said that they should be run by experienced business people and if people fail to perform they should be culpable, like most people at work, and not keep plodding on regardless based on a popularity contest and peeing our money down the drain. Incidentally I have dealt with local authorities on business basis and they beggar belief, they are without doubt the worst to deal and treat you with a certain amount of disrespect on the basis they will do everything on their terms, regardless of whether this is the right commercial decision. Are you seriously suggesting that Shropshire Council, aka all local government, is run along the same business lines as a nationalised industry? Really ! Because if you are and that is your expectation and understanding of how it works then no wonder you struggled with working with them. No wonder !. It clearly would be pointless engaging in debate with someone with such entrenched and intransigent opinions so I won’t bother. But I will say this, for all its faults and shortcomings- and there are some, Shropshire Council does an amazing job given the financial constraints it has been forced to endure for over a decade. All local government has been starved and abused of finance and support for years, and yet people’s expectations and aspirations remain the same or higher. Go figure ..
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Post by Feedo Gnasher on Dec 11, 2019 22:21:44 GMT 1
Mr Walton’s comments in the article say it all, costs of social care rising by £14m a year and no additional funding to support it. Local authorities get overlooked when slating the government’s lack of investment in police, NHS etc
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Dec 11, 2019 22:24:13 GMT 1
This is a perfect example of why any service should avoid nationalisation. Local authorities are a classic example of non business people running a business, a very big one at that, and never being in a position where they become responsible or culpable for their short comings. I know they have been victims of cost cutting but you tell me any business that hasn't. The issue lies with this complete lack of business sense has they seem to think they can carry on as usual, which they do, as someone will come and bung the cash hole up again. I have always said that they should be run by experienced business people and if people fail to perform they should be culpable, like most people at work, and not keep plodding on regardless based on a popularity contest and peeing our money down the drain. Incidentally I have dealt with local authorities on business basis and they beggar belief, they are without doubt the worst to deal and treat you with a certain amount of disrespect on the basis they will do everything on their terms, regardless of whether this is the right commercial decision.
More like public services are starved of the funding they require to the point of failure, and are then "rescued" by the the private sector.
The same private sector who fund and control the media for the same people who made the decision to slash the public sector funding.
And around and around we go. Underfund, outsource, profit, fail, renationalise, underfund, outsource, profit, fail.
The only people who get rich are the executives and the shareholders and the only people who lose out are the public.
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Post by cheggersdrinkspop on Dec 11, 2019 23:40:24 GMT 1
Business interests, friends who work there, real life experiences, and a very close relation who was a local councillor give me enough to form a opinion. When you have worked in the private sector and ran your own business you will then realise the importance of accountability, you don't get hand outs, bail outs, if you don't make the right decisions you fail and risk losing everything, and you don't get rich either, contary to popular belief. I don't disrespect the service they provide to many people, and I am sure some people work very hard to do this in challenging circumstances, but they need to take a step back and take some tips from the private sector and get out of the political point scoring, as this is no benefit to anyone. Mismanagement is a curse of all organisations and alot of the private sector addressed this after the last two recessions, if they didn't then many more business's would have failed, it still goes on obviously but with greater accountability in place it is not as prevalent. Nationalisation of anything is handing it back to governmental control essentially, so it then becomes politically motivated and this gives rise to a different style of management.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Dec 12, 2019 10:50:46 GMT 1
Business interests, friends who work there, real life experiences, and a very close relation who was a local councillor give me enough to form a opinion. When you have worked in the private sector and ran your own business you will then realise the importance of accountability, you don't get hand outs, bail outs, if you don't make the right decisions you fail and risk losing everything, and you don't get rich either, contary to popular belief. I don't disrespect the service they provide to many people, and I am sure some people work very hard to do this in challenging circumstances, but they need to take a step back and take some tips from the private sector and get out of the political point scoring, as this is no benefit to anyone. Mismanagement is a curse of all organisations and alot of the private sector addressed this after the last two recessions, if they didn't then many more business's would have failed, it still goes on obviously but with greater accountability in place it is not as prevalent. Nationalisation of anything is handing it back to governmental control essentially, so it then becomes politically motivated and this gives rise to a different style of management.
The national debt went from something like £300bn to £800bn in the space of a few weeks to "Bail out" the private sector who pushed our economy to the point of melt down.
In the decade since the controlled media have peddled the lie that it was "Reckless public sector spending" that caused the debt but it wasn't. It was bailing out private enterprise. Who through unregulated markets had pushed risk taking to the extreme in the thirst for profit.
That's what actually happened.
"Austerity" is politically motivated not economically motivated.
Just like the move away from heavy industry to the welfare state in many communities was politically motivated.
That said I agree that nationalizing everything is not the answer. As with everything the best way is the middle ground.
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Post by northwestman on Dec 12, 2019 11:07:14 GMT 1
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Post by El Huracán!!!! on Dec 12, 2019 11:07:17 GMT 1
There is no middle ground in this country any more Dave politically.... Hense why I like many feel so politically homeless.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Dec 12, 2019 12:11:50 GMT 1
There is no middle ground in this country any more Dave politically.... Hense why I like many feel so politically homeless. Yes exactly. Literally everything went wrong the day Labour picked the wrong Milliband brother.
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Post by barrynic on Dec 12, 2019 12:25:25 GMT 1
It all started going wrong when Blair was elected for the first time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 12:32:34 GMT 1
Up the Shrews!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 13:54:32 GMT 1
Personally, I think being centrist, or in the middle politically, has got us where we are today.
Don't forget the Lib Dems were in government in recent history.
Blair was a centrist.
A lot of people have been left behind and will find a political home on the left or right.
Having said that, it's hardly hard left and hard right.
There's has been a lot of hyperbole around Socialism and Fascism recently. It's bollox of course.
We just have a choice between Social Democracy, or free-market capitalism.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Dec 12, 2019 16:08:04 GMT 1
Personally, I think being centrist, or in the middle politically, has got us where we are today. Don't forget the Lib Dems were in government in recent history. Blair was a centrist. A lot of people have been left behind and will find a political home on the left or right. Having said that, it's hardly hard left and hard right. There's has been a lot of hyperbole around Socialism and Fascism recently. It's bollox of course. We just have a choice between Social Democracy, or free-market capitalism. I disagree. I think the war in Iraq got is where we are today Centrism is the only hope for the future. Logical extremes of any position are the problem. It's the same for politics, religions, economics. The "truth" or the "best" is always near the centre ground. Being forced to make extreme choices is the problem. I believe in the free market with a safety net. I'm new labour. I'm a one nation Tory. There's literally no-one that represents me. I hate the worst of both of them. I hate that the middle ground on both sides have been purged.
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Post by El Huracán!!!! on Dec 12, 2019 16:19:17 GMT 1
Personally, I think being centrist, or in the middle politically, has got us where we are today. Don't forget the Lib Dems were in government in recent history. Blair was a centrist. A lot of people have been left behind and will find a political home on the left or right. Having said that, it's hardly hard left and hard right. There's has been a lot of hyperbole around Socialism and Fascism recently. It's bollox of course. We just have a choice between Social Democracy, or free-market capitalism. I disagree. I think the war in Iraq got is where we are today Centrism is the only hope for the future. Logical extremes of any position are the problem. It's the same for politics, religions, economics. The "truth" or the "best" is always near the centre ground. Being forced to make extreme choices is the problem. I believe in the free market with a safety net. I'm new labour. I'm a one nation Tory. There's literally no-one that represents me. I hate the worst of both of them. I hate that the middle ground on both sides have been purged. Amen Mate. That's exactly how I feel. Have, like you, voted in every election since I was old enough, and today was a rank experience. Did it with the kids to show you SHOULD always vote but still not sure i'm all that happy with what I have done and like would have felt the same way had i voted for anyone on the list this AM. One things for sure, who ever wins tomorrow this nation will still be divided as hell unless one of the main partys takes such as licking that it forces them to change course and come back from the directions they have been heading. Thats the way I see it. Were more like US politics than ever IMO.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Dec 12, 2019 16:34:13 GMT 1
Yes I agree with that. I felt dirty on the inside even making the choice.
Like you have to choose between hating the Jews and hating the poor.
Shakespeare had this one covered
"A plague on both their houses."
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Post by stfcfan87 on Dec 12, 2019 16:41:25 GMT 1
Business interests, friends who work there, real life experiences, and a very close relation who was a local councillor give me enough to form a opinion. When you have worked in the private sector and ran your own business you will then realise the importance of accountability, you don't get hand outs, bail outs, if you don't make the right decisions you fail and risk losing everything, and you don't get rich either, contary to popular belief. I don't disrespect the service they provide to many people, and I am sure some people work very hard to do this in challenging circumstances, but they need to take a step back and take some tips from the private sector and get out of the political point scoring, as this is no benefit to anyone. Mismanagement is a curse of all organisations and alot of the private sector addressed this after the last two recessions, if they didn't then many more business's would have failed, it still goes on obviously but with greater accountability in place it is not as prevalent. Nationalisation of anything is handing it back to governmental control essentially, so it then becomes politically motivated and this gives rise to a different style of management. How exactly would the private business sector help in issues the council's have to fund such as homelessness, safeguarding adults and children etc?
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Post by barrynic on Dec 12, 2019 16:44:32 GMT 1
Fully enjoyed today voting with my wife for the Conservatives in the hope that it will mean the end for the revolting Corbyn and his gang.
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Post by scooter on Dec 12, 2019 17:11:09 GMT 1
Business interests, friends who work there, real life experiences, and a very close relation who was a local councillor give me enough to form a opinion. When you have worked in the private sector and ran your own business you will then realise the importance of accountability, you don't get hand outs, bail outs, if you don't make the right decisions you fail and risk losing everything, and you don't get rich either, contary to popular belief. I don't disrespect the service they provide to many people, and I am sure some people work very hard to do this in challenging circumstances, but they need to take a step back and take some tips from the private sector and get out of the political point scoring, as this is no benefit to anyone. Mismanagement is a curse of all organisations and alot of the private sector addressed this after the last two recessions, if they didn't then many more business's would have failed, it still goes on obviously but with greater accountability in place it is not as prevalent. Nationalisation of anything is handing it back to governmental control essentially, so it then becomes politically motivated and this gives rise to a different style of management. How exactly would the private business sector help in issues the council's have to fund such as homelessness, safeguarding adults and children etc? Most of the money spent will end up going in to the private sector, certainly for Adult care. The Council don’t run Old People’s Homes any more, (nor are they called that now) they commission care from private care homes, either small privately owned ones, or those run by large national companies
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Post by northwestman on Dec 12, 2019 17:17:13 GMT 1
Fully enjoyed today voting with my wife for the Conservatives in the hope that it will mean the end for the revolting Corbyn and his gang. And you are happy voting for lying Boris and his revolting crew? As others have said on here. No one wins in this election.
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Post by barrynic on Dec 12, 2019 17:26:28 GMT 1
...I am very happy voting for Boris...I have always voted Tory as do my whole family and am proud to admit it.
Tory policies have allowed me to retire early and enjoy life to the full.
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Post by cheggersdrinkspop on Dec 12, 2019 18:12:54 GMT 1
Business interests, friends who work there, real life experiences, and a very close relation who was a local councillor give me enough to form a opinion. When you have worked in the private sector and ran your own business you will then realise the importance of accountability, you don't get hand outs, bail outs, if you don't make the right decisions you fail and risk losing everything, and you don't get rich either, contary to popular belief. I don't disrespect the service they provide to many people, and I am sure some people work very hard to do this in challenging circumstances, but they need to take a step back and take some tips from the private sector and get out of the political point scoring, as this is no benefit to anyone. Mismanagement is a curse of all organisations and alot of the private sector addressed this after the last two recessions, if they didn't then many more business's would have failed, it still goes on obviously but with greater accountability in place it is not as prevalent. Nationalisation of anything is handing it back to governmental control essentially, so it then becomes politically motivated and this gives rise to a different style of management. How exactly would the private business sector help in issues the council's have to fund such as homelessness, safeguarding adults and children etc? The private sector are already in bed with the council due to outsourcing of contracts etc. There are a great deal of disused council buildings that are currently empty and falling into disrepair due to councils either not bothering to rent them out to private business, I know I tried and it is still boarded up 3 years later, or actually selling them on for development. So there are some funding opportunities, but if you run it as a non profit organisation then it will not happen.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 18:45:53 GMT 1
... Tory policies have allowed me to retire early and enjoy life to the full. [ This post almost made me choke on my tea . So , you are able to enjoy life to the full after retiring early ? Brilliant , so glad for you . I’m sure all those living on our streets , struggling to survive on universal credit , are stacking up in our hospital waiting rooms and wonder if their children’s school will have the necessary basic equipment will all raise their glasses to toast your good fortune . Suffice to say another prime example of a Tory thinking only of themselves and f.ck everyone else. Cheers !
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Post by northwestman on Dec 12, 2019 19:19:07 GMT 1
I've retired early too on an index linked pension after nearly 40 years working in education, 16 of which were when Labour was in power. The majority of my time was spent teaching in Manchester, which is a Labour controlled authority.
But not for one second would I take the attitude that barrynic has. There are others in this country worthy of consideration, and they are being left behind by the policies of the Tories.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2019 20:11:08 GMT 1
Personally, I think being centrist, or in the middle politically, has got us where we are today. Don't forget the Lib Dems were in government in recent history. Blair was a centrist. A lot of people have been left behind and will find a political home on the left or right. Having said that, it's hardly hard left and hard right. There's has been a lot of hyperbole around Socialism and Fascism recently. It's bollox of course. We just have a choice between Social Democracy, or free-market capitalism. I disagree. I think the war in Iraq got is where we are today Centrism is the only hope for the future. Logical extremes of any position are the problem. It's the same for politics, religions, economics. The "truth" or the "best" is always near the centre ground. Being forced to make extreme choices is the problem. I believe in the free market with a safety net. I'm new labour. I'm a one nation Tory. There's literally no-one that represents me. I hate the worst of both of them. I hate that the middle ground on both sides have been purged. I am at a loss as to why the Iraq war got us where we are today, but seeing as you mention it, it was a 'moderate centerist' that got the UK involved. Corbyn voted against intervention of course.... There are no actual extremes, it's hyperbole to suggest that there is. But, sensible centerist moderates (or whatever terms people use) will see the world differently to someone trapped in a zero hour contract, paying high rents and struggling to make ends meet. Or from a disabled person who has had their PIP stopped as they are deemed 'fit' to work. Blairs 3rd way, enabled the free-market we have now and the Lid Dems (look how Swinson voted when in government) enabled it further. I don't know if you're involved in the Barnabas Centre anymore, but I have been spending the last few months taking people down there to collect their food parcels. I think most of the people I have helped would tell you where to stick centerist politics. Like I said, people left behind.
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Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Dec 12, 2019 20:22:07 GMT 1
I think most of the people I have helped would tell you where to stick centerist politics. Like I said, people left behind.
I think it the war in Iraq because that absolutely tainted the new labour legacy. That said I think agreeing the Lisbon treaty without the political mandate was another nail in the coffin politically as Brexit has shown us.
Then when the credit crunch happened the media kicked in and blamed "Public spending" even though that is what had made them good years not bad, it was the banks that broke us.
We have not had centrist politics since then.
Labour hard left revolted from within and the unions swung left with the wrong Milliband. That was the start of the ball rolling that rolled into an unelectable Corbyn purging the party of any of its statespeople.
Meanwhile Cameron ushered in ten years of politically motivated austerity which has fueled the demand for foodbanks as you suggest. But at the post coalition election Cameron would have been annihilated by a stronger opposition.
That's why it goes back to Iraq. Because the labour grass roots lost trust in the centrist direction from that point and it left them with no voice at all on the sidelines of politics while increasingly popularist Tories out Toried each other and here we are.
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