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Post by martinshrew on Apr 18, 2019 14:12:05 GMT 1
It's mad that this is being allowed to carry on, it's disrupting those trying to earn a living. Hopefully heavy sentences are handed down and the full force of the law is used against those who aren't peacefully protesting. I thought they'd be more for using public transport, not gluing themselves to trains and disrupting the service to tens of thousands of passengers.
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Post by El Huracán!!!! on Apr 18, 2019 14:18:05 GMT 1
If a bunch of football fans stood in the middle of Waterloo bridge and shut it down I would give it 3-4 hours before the water cannons were out...
There is also an argument that this whole thing causes MORE air pollution due to the massive queues being caused all around London and with shutting down an ELECTRIC part of the sustainable network yesterday (DLR) seems a pretty counter productive protest.
Good news is, Half term is over next week and they will back off home to leafy suburbia.
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Post by martinshrew on Apr 18, 2019 14:21:24 GMT 1
If a bunch of football fans stood in the middle of Waterloo bridge and shut it down I would give it 3-4 hours before the water cannons were out... There is also an argument that this whole thing causes MORE air pollution due to the massive queues being caused all around London and with shutting down an ELECTRIC part of the sustainable network yesterday (DLR) seems a pretty counter productive protest. Good news is, Half term is over next week and they will back off home to leafy suburbia. I have two main arguments and you've covered them both.
1) If this was football fans, there would be arrests followed by football banning orders left, right and centre for public disorder. Like you say, this wouldn't have gone on more than a couple of hours. These lot will get a slap on the wrist if that.
2) There is a lot of evidence to suggest this is causing MORE air pollution.
Everyone has the right to a peaceful protest and freedom of speech. Amazing how different groups are treated in totally different ways!
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Post by venceremos on Apr 18, 2019 16:45:53 GMT 1
If a bunch of football fans stood in the middle of Waterloo Bridge they'd have no reason to be there, would they? Still wouldn't be subject to water cannon though - they're not legal (remember one of Boris' money wasting schemes to buy old ones?).
Air pollution causes thousands of premature deaths in the UK alone every year but a bit of temporary traffic disruption is more important? What a strange sense of priorities.
Climate change is the most important matter of our lifetimes, bar none. If we can't tolerate a little disruption from people trying to chivvy governments and corporations into taking long term views instead of pursuing short term gains then we deserve what we get. Except we won't be the ones really suffering, it'll be the youngest generations and those yet unborn.
Forget brexit, forget terrorism - none of that will count for anything if we don't act now at least to slow the damage we're doing.
Power to Extinction Rebellion!
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Post by martinshrew on Apr 18, 2019 16:58:43 GMT 1
If a bunch of football fans stood in the middle of Waterloo Bridge they'd have no reason to be there, would they? Still wouldn't be subject to water cannon though - they're not legal (remember one of Boris' money wasting schemes to buy old ones?). Air pollution causes thousands of premature deaths in the UK alone every year but a bit of temporary traffic disruption is more important? What a strange sense of priorities. Climate change is the most important matter of our lifetimes, bar none. If we can't tolerate a little disruption from people trying to chivvy governments and corporations into taking long term views instead of pursuing short term gains then we deserve what we get. Except we won't be the ones really suffering, it'll be the youngest generations and those yet unborn. Forget brexit, forget terrorism - none of that will count for anything if we don't act now at least to slow the damage we're doing. Power to Extinction Rebellion! The fact you don't condem the actions of some of these individuals tells you all you need to know. There is absoluetly no excuse for breaking the law, causing public disorder and vandalising public transport.
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Post by ssshrew on Apr 18, 2019 17:03:13 GMT 1
It depends on who is being disrupted though. If you are someone with a hospital appointment for yourself or one of your family something like this can be really upsetting. If your someone trying to get to work to earn your money this can be as disruptive as a strike on the transport systems.
I totally agree that global warming is far more important that many other issues but to disrupt the public from going about their lawful business is surely not the answer.
They would be better off trying to convince the idiot who rules America that global warming is a great problem that just cannot be ignored.
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Post by venceremos on Apr 18, 2019 17:32:54 GMT 1
It depends on who is being disrupted though. If you are someone with a hospital appointment for yourself or one of your family something like this can be really upsetting. If your someone trying to get to work to earn your money this can be as disruptive as a strike on the transport systems. I totally agree that global warming is far more important that many other issues but to disrupt the public from going about their lawful business is surely not the answer. They would be better off trying to convince the idiot who rules America that global warming is a great problem that just cannot be ignored. People have been trying to convince that idiot and many other political leaders for many years. It evidently hasn't had enough effect. It's regrettable but sometimes direct action is the only way to ensure serious attention is given.
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Post by venceremos on Apr 18, 2019 17:39:06 GMT 1
If a bunch of football fans stood in the middle of Waterloo Bridge they'd have no reason to be there, would they? Still wouldn't be subject to water cannon though - they're not legal (remember one of Boris' money wasting schemes to buy old ones?). Air pollution causes thousands of premature deaths in the UK alone every year but a bit of temporary traffic disruption is more important? What a strange sense of priorities. Climate change is the most important matter of our lifetimes, bar none. If we can't tolerate a little disruption from people trying to chivvy governments and corporations into taking long term views instead of pursuing short term gains then we deserve what we get. Except we won't be the ones really suffering, it'll be the youngest generations and those yet unborn. Forget brexit, forget terrorism - none of that will count for anything if we don't act now at least to slow the damage we're doing. Power to Extinction Rebellion! The fact you don't condem the actions of some of these individuals tells you all you need to know. There is absoluetly no excuse for breaking the law, causing public disorder and vandalising public transport. Yes there is. The suffragettes had a good reason for breaking the law, wouldn't you agree? You can hide behind minor laws and fret about a bit of glue on public transport all you like. If you think that's the most important thing, tell it to your grandchildren (or someone else's) when they ask why we selfishly allowed our environment to be damaged, possibly beyond repair, and people to die as a consequence. If you had any concerns about migration up until now, they'll seem like nothing when vast movements of people are required because of flooding, drought, crop failures etc. We're not immune. We can become extinct too.
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Post by shrewsace on Apr 18, 2019 17:44:52 GMT 1
It's mad that this is being allowed to carry on, it's disrupting those trying to earn a living. Hopefully heavy sentences are handed down and the full force of the law is used against those who aren't peacefully protesting. I thought they'd be more for using public transport, not gluing themselves to trains and disrupting the service to tens of thousands of passengers.
And you'll be condemning the promised 'civil unrest' from Brexiteers should things not pan out to their liking I take it, Martin? Personally not convinced this group's tactics are the right ones but their cause is just . Climate change is the biggest threat facing humanity and our governments are not acting quickly and radically enough to arrest it.
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Post by champagneprince on Apr 18, 2019 17:58:06 GMT 1
Trouble with climate change is people don't care enough about it.
Put a new thread about Brexit on here versus a new one about climate change and the Brexit one gets the most replies and views doesn't it?
Ultimately it's all about money. If Trump and every political leader wanted to stop climate change they could, but if one country is offering cheaper goods because they're not putting in the same controls then the other countries become poorer don't they? And ultimately that comes down to the people and what they choose to buy.
Would you happily pay more for all your goods because they come from a country abiding by any rules or do you just want your goods as cheap as possible? Equally we all need to be in jobs to pay for those goods and those jobs become scarce if manufacturers decide to go to the 'cheaper' countries.
We'll all sit up and take notice when it's beyond the tipping point and too late, until then we'll all just keep buying the cheaper products. It's a shame about the polar bears, but fck I've just bought a new Mazda from Cheapcountryland for 10k - what a bargain!
These protesters are doing what protesters do, but they'll still go home tonight and will buy the cheaper products without a care from where they were made and what climate controls were in place for that country (with the exception being the hardcore who know their stuff and remain dedicated to the cause).
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Post by venceremos on Apr 18, 2019 18:29:32 GMT 1
Trouble with climate change is people don't care enough about it. Put a new thread about Brexit on here versus a new one about climate change and the Brexit one gets the most replies and views doesn't it? Ultimately it's all about money. If Trump and every political leader wanted to stop climate change they could, but if one country is offering cheaper goods because they're not putting in the same controls then the other countries become poorer don't they? And ultimately that comes down to the people and what they choose to buy. Would you happily pay more for all your goods because they come from a country abiding by any rules or do you just want your goods as cheap as possible? Equally we all need to be in jobs to pay for those goods and those jobs become scarce if manufacturers decide to go to the 'cheaper' countries. We'll all sit up and take notice when it's beyond the tipping point and too late, until then we'll all just keep buying the cheaper products. It's a shame about the polar bears, but fck I've just bought a new Mazda from Cheapcountryland for 10k - what a bargain! These protesters are doing what protesters do, but they'll still go home tonight and will buy the cheaper products without a care from where they were made and what climate controls were in place for that country (with the exception being the hardcore who know their stuff and remain dedicated to the cause). It isn't just up to consumers though. I agree they can - and already do - have a powerful influence but it requires coordinated government action and I'm perhaps more optimistic than you that increasing pressure can bring that about. But the pressure won't just come from below. It was interesting to read the joint statement from Mark Carney (Bank of England) and his equivalent head of the French national bank that companies must modify their behaviours or themselves become extinct. Such a statement was unthinkable even five years ago. Radical changes, not all of them convenient, are coming - technological, behavioural, governmental. We have to hope they happen quickly enough because their costs will seem as nothing compared to the far higher price we and future generations will all pay if they don't.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Apr 18, 2019 18:34:37 GMT 1
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Post by shrewsace on Apr 18, 2019 18:37:09 GMT 1
As an aside, I just generally really dislike the knee-jerk 'get in line' response of your archetypal authoritarian right winger to ANY type of protest.
The usual crap about all the protesters being unemployed middle-class, layabouts etc, if people dare to have a social conscience and actually care about something beyond their own income.
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Post by venceremos on Apr 18, 2019 18:50:22 GMT 1
As an aside, I just generally really dislike the knee-jerk 'get in line' response of your archetypal authoritarian right winger to ANY type of protest. The usual cr@p about all the protesters being unemployed middle-class, layabouts etc, if people dare to have a social conscience and actually care about something beyond their own income. Makes you wonder who they think is entitled to protest. Upstanding business types? The "right" sort of public servants - firefighters, soldiers, police (who can't really protest much, of course) but obviously not social workers, teachers, anyone connected with the arts etc? Countryside alliance and brexiteer types perhaps .......? Anyway, we need people bold enough to make a stand and then we need to support them for doing that on our behalf, not mock and belittle them.
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Post by lenny on Apr 18, 2019 19:05:21 GMT 1
I feel reasonably qualified to talk about the protests, working right by Marble Arch and walking past them every day.
It’s been an absolute delight for the air quality on Oxford street - genuinely noticeable difference. The sooner it becomes bus and loading only (which is the only realistic proposal) the better. Anyone driving there doesn’t have their head screwed on right, in any case.
The protesters are very small in number, I’d estimate at the end of Oxford Street by Marble Arch station it’s a dozen tops. It’s very peaceful and relaxed and nobody walking or cycling in the surroundings has any complaints. Just a small bunch of people say playing cards in the road with some tents and banners.
On the one hand, it’s easy to say that things like holding up the DLR are counterproductive to their goals and I am sympathetic to that argument to an extent. However, this is a protest designed to raise major awareness and instigate political conversations. Keeping the protests in the news by varying the events (and actually having a very minor impact on travel) contributes towards that aim and isn’t going to stop people from using public transport. Arguing that they’re making pollution worse through their acts (which I significantly doubt) is rather missing the point. The whole aim is to get people talking about climate change, which largely everyone agrees is a massive problem but does nothing about it. Hopefully coverage and David Attenborough’s concerted push (watch his documentary on the BBC tonight!) help in the same way it did with the far less pressing issue of plastic waste. At the end of the day, the fact it’s sparking a discussion is good and I don’t think anyone would disagree that the three goals of the movement are laudable aims that the government could move towards as much as possible.
I am slightly more concerned about the protestors’ response to the issue of shop disruption (I do, however, greatly doubt the impact has been as large as said, given access to Oxford Street remains easy and loading can easily be done if there’s a will). Saying “oh they’re mostly big companies who can afford it” rather glosses over the problem and a far less anarchic, more conciliatory and positive tone would go a long way.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2019 19:07:01 GMT 1
it gives the great unwashed (students) and the leftie teachers summat to do during half term....
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Post by tvor on Apr 18, 2019 19:55:14 GMT 1
“Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is man’s original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.”
Oscar Wilde
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2019 20:58:45 GMT 1
There are no water cannon in London and it isn't half-term.
Also, the demographic is a little bit more diverse than suggested, but there you go.
Good stuff from Lenny, who is actually there.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2019 20:59:56 GMT 1
There are no water cannon in London and it isn't half-term. Also, the demographic is a little bit more diverse than suggested, but there you go. Good stuff from Lenny, who is actually there. Not half term..... all bloody skivin then.... cos non are at school due to some religious holiday we are about to start....
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Post by lenny on Apr 18, 2019 21:24:54 GMT 1
it gives the great unwashed (students) and the leftie teachers summat to do during half term.... A large portion of the people behind the movement are scientists with doctorates and former professionals (ex Investment Banker is behind fundraising) who feel so strongly about the potential effects of climate change that they have left their comfortable and well-paid jobs to try and make a difference.
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Post by shrewinjapan on Apr 18, 2019 22:23:30 GMT 1
I don't condone any violence, vandalism or actions that risk people's safety, but otherwise I support the demonstrations. Sometimes direct action is necessary. Human society is generally resistant to change and slow to adapt, and predominantly unfettered capitalism tends to prioritize short term profits over all else. But regarding climate change and the environment, we don't have the luxury of time. It's a really serious crisis. The recent news about sudden massive decline in insect populations hasn't been given anything like the coverage it deserves. Human extinction is now a genuine looming threat.
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Post by shrewsace on Apr 19, 2019 7:30:45 GMT 1
Jonathan Pie nails it as usual...
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Post by frankwellshrews on Apr 19, 2019 8:45:29 GMT 1
Anybody listen to the podcast " drilled"? If not, I recommend it. Very good analysis if how big oil used PR to legitimise its activities.
One of the most interesting observations (for me) is how one of their biggest wins was convincing people that it was down to them as individuals to make small lifestyle changes rather than expect a systemic change.
Hence, we get people insisting on cycling everywhere, reducing consumption of certain foods etc.
All p**sing in the wind of course; it's not that people don't care, it's that they have little agency. As somebody living in Shropshire, the earnings to house price ratio combined with the complete savaging of our public transport network and the low range of electric vehicles means I have no choice but to drive a " dirty" car, sometimes for up to hundreds of miles a week if I want to feed my family.
Similarly, I have 2 children now; the comparatively smaller size of modern new builds means if I want to house my family in somewhere which will give us an acceptable quality of life but which I won't still be paying for by the time my kids are in their 30s, I have to go for a less efficient older property.
The real issue here, of course, is austerity. We could be taking advantage of historic low interest rates and borrowing money to lend out at cost to people to insulate their homes, instal solar panels etc. Governmemt could be investing in or incentivising investment to give us a world class renewable energy sector. Both councils and central government could subsidise buses and trains to make them more affordable and make it profitable to run more and from/to more remote destinations. We could even be investing in the ePace and ensuring a more reasonably priced version with a better range becomes more widely available.
We can do all of that stuff; the only thing that stops us is the misguided obsession with an arbitrary deficit which very few actually understand yet which is used as a justification for the current government's destructive policies.
That's why I disagree that climate change is our generation's biggest crisis. For me, it's austerity. Everything else stems from that and that's why the most revolutionary act I csn commit is to vote against those policies, as I consistently have.
This is why, in my view, it's pointless targetting others such as myself who have priorities which clash with climate concerns and little choice in the matter. If you really want to make a change donate, campaign or protest for an anti austerity party and chuck the Tories out at the next election. Everything will get a lot easier from there.
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Post by crayfish on Apr 19, 2019 9:35:31 GMT 1
If a bunch of football fans stood in the middle of Waterloo Bridge they'd have no reason to be there, would they? Still wouldn't be subject to water cannon though - they're not legal (remember one of Boris' money wasting schemes to buy old ones?). Air pollution causes thousands of premature deaths in the UK alone every year but a bit of temporary traffic disruption is more important? What a strange sense of priorities. Climate change is the most important matter of our lifetimes, bar none. If we can't tolerate a little disruption from people trying to chivvy governments and corporations into taking long term views instead of pursuing short term gains then we deserve what we get. Except we won't be the ones really suffering, it'll be the youngest generations and those yet unborn. Forget brexit, forget terrorism - none of that will count for anything if we don't act now at least to slow the damage we're doing. Power to Extinction Rebellion! The huge problem with your argument is this. Firstly Britain produces only slightly more than 1% of global carbon dioxide emissions. So if we did not produce any at all it would make hardly any difference to climate change. The main problem is the industrialion of India and Africa and the enormous population growth in the Middle East and Africa that is what is causing the problems not Britain or Europe. Secondly Britain is already a world leader in reducing in reducing carbon emissions we have the largest off shore wind industry in the world an ever increasing number of solar energy farms and very high standards of home insulation. In fact we produce 44% less carbon than in 1990 and it is going down all the time. All this despite massively increasing the population in the last two decades. The protesters are just virtue signalling middle class prats hypocrites too as most of them drive cars and take foreign holidays. If they were protesting outside the Chinese embassy I would have a bit more respect for them.
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Post by dachshund on Apr 19, 2019 9:47:34 GMT 1
I live and work in central London and have walked past the peaceful protest at Piccadilly every day without any disruption. I’m also flying out of Heathrow tomorrow which looks potentially interesting now.
Good on em i say - minor disruption is worth it for focussing international media attention on these issues, and will at least make holidaymakers like me pause for thought.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 9:53:42 GMT 1
It's mad that this is being allowed to carry on, it's disrupting those trying to earn a living. Hopefully heavy sentences are handed down and the full force of the law is used against those who aren't peacefully protesting. I thought they'd be more for using public transport, not gluing themselves to trains and disrupting the service to tens of thousands of passengers.
I think someone beat me to it, but is it only ok to protest and disrupt the lives of others when it’s a bunch of bog eyed gammon faced nazis goose stepping through the streets of London moaning about the howwible government and the tewwible euwopeans?
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Post by Pilch on Apr 19, 2019 11:08:38 GMT 1
they probably all went to macdonalds on the way home and then threw the rubbish out of the car window
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Apr 19, 2019 11:45:55 GMT 1
If you really want to make a change donate, campaign or protest for an anti austerity party and chuck the Tories out at the next election. Everything will get a lot easier from there. How will a change in government really make a change when you look to what has already been posted here which I think is correct... Britain produces only slightly more than 1% of global carbon dioxide emissions. So if we did not produce any at all it would make hardly any difference to climate change. The main problem is the industrialization of India and Africa and the enormous population growth in the Middle East and Africa that is what is causing the problems not Britain or Europe.
Secondly Britain is already a world leader in reducing in reducing carbon emissions we have the largest off shore wind industry in the world an ever increasing number of solar energy farms and very high standards of home insulation. In fact we produce 44% less carbon than in 1990 and it is going down all the time. All this despite massively increasing the population in the last two decades.
The global carbon project listed china as the largest global polluter; China emits about 10,357 million metric tons per year. The United States is second, with about 5,414 million metric tons of carbon dioxide emissions per year. In 2015 both countries contributed to over 44% of carbon dioxide emission. China and Indonesia are the top two marine pouters.
I think this is why people feel so helpless in all this despite knowing the importance, as its a global problem there are many aspects that are simply beyond their control. Yes they can do their bit (and people are doing so) but in the great scheme of things is it making a difference to where we are currently heading when you look to say China?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 11:52:29 GMT 1
There are no water cannon in London and it isn't half-term. Also, the demographic is a little bit more diverse than suggested, but there you go. Good stuff from Lenny, who is actually there. Not half term..... all bloody skivin then.... cos non are at school due to some religious holiday we are about to start.... It's not 'some' religious holiday as you put it. For people like me it is an important time in our Christian calendar.
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Post by venceremos on Apr 19, 2019 12:18:52 GMT 1
If a bunch of football fans stood in the middle of Waterloo Bridge they'd have no reason to be there, would they? Still wouldn't be subject to water cannon though - they're not legal (remember one of Boris' money wasting schemes to buy old ones?). Air pollution causes thousands of premature deaths in the UK alone every year but a bit of temporary traffic disruption is more important? What a strange sense of priorities. Climate change is the most important matter of our lifetimes, bar none. If we can't tolerate a little disruption from people trying to chivvy governments and corporations into taking long term views instead of pursuing short term gains then we deserve what we get. Except we won't be the ones really suffering, it'll be the youngest generations and those yet unborn. Forget brexit, forget terrorism - none of that will count for anything if we don't act now at least to slow the damage we're doing. Power to Extinction Rebellion! The huge problem with your argument is this. Firstly Britain produces only slightly more than 1% of global carbon dioxide emissions. So if we did not produce any at all it would make hardly any difference to climate change. The main problem is the industrialion of India and Africa and the enormous population growth in the Middle East and Africa that is what is causing the problems not Britain or Europe. Secondly Britain is already a world leader in reducing in reducing carbon emissions we have the largest off shore wind industry in the world an ever increasing number of solar energy farms and very high standards of home insulation. In fact we produce 44% less carbon than in 1990 and it is going down all the time. All this despite massively increasing the population in the last two decades. The protesters are just virtue signalling middle class prats hypocrites too as most of them drive cars and take foreign holidays. If they were protesting outside the Chinese embassy I would have a bit more respect for them. Oh, I see. Unless you’re in the majority, it’s not worth doing anything. How far do you want to run with that argument? Why does this country do anything internationally if we’re of so little significance? If the rest of the world practiced slavery, would it be a waste of time for us to act against it? Does that mean you and I, as insignificant individuals, might as well do anything we want to, regardless of any ethical or moral considerations, because it makes no difference in the grand scheme of things? The huge problem with your argument is that it’s grounded in petty national concerns, which are of little relevance to a global crisis. A small-minded approach is very easy and convenient - there’s no point trying to change anything so let’s just carry on. Yet you contradict your too-small-to-make-a-difference argument by boasting of our world leading technologies. What was the point of that investment if we can’t make a difference? As I said earlier, it requires governments, businesses and individuals to act. Of course we all contribute to the problem - it’s impossible not to in our modern world. That doesn’t make someone a hypocrite for trying to reduce their environmental impact. Your juvenile, ignorant and unfounded attack on the protesters (since when was being middle class a crime?) says far more about you than them.
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