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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 21, 2019 10:51:17 GMT 1
It will all depend on the qualty of our own government, that's a bigger worry than Brexit for me. Even being in the EU we have greatly increased use of foodbanks and homelessness, that, for me, is a national disgrace. People are setting up little cardboard rooms in empty shop doorways, in or out of the EU, we have to address the problems people currently have. I suspect that food banks and homelessness have more to do with having a Tory government than EU membership. As already mentioned on this thread, we are seeing a huge increase in homelessness and the use of food banks here in Germany too. Perhaps across Europe too, not sure. But certainly here in Germany. Did you see the numbers that were posted on another thread here on B&A showing those sleeping rough in the UK and in Germany? There is a huge difference. No Tory government over here, we have yet another grand coalition. So maybe neither, perhaps not about having a Tory government or about EU membership. Perhaps something else?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 10:52:27 GMT 1
So, leavers, where were you for those ten years or more? Busy polishing their boots and practicing their goose step!
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 21, 2019 11:04:05 GMT 1
Here's the link I was looking for the other day when I argued that the referendum was only wanted by a "handful of cranks"; www.economist.com/britain/2017/04/03/brexit-a-solution-in-search-of-a-problemAccording to polling data less than 10% of people ranked EU membership as the issue which most concerned them in the DECADE which ran up to the referendum. So, leavers, where were you for those ten years or more? Just out of interest, do we know what was listed as the issues which most concerned them?
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Post by staffordshrew on Jan 21, 2019 11:24:19 GMT 1
[quote author=" albionshrew " source="/post/1402500/thread" I suspect that food banks and homelessness have more to do with having a Tory government than EU membership. The homeless and food banks increase is not just a UK problem. There are record high levels across Europe. Unless the evil tories are so evil they're masterminding a Europe wide increase it could be something else responsible. Maybe a bubble from the financial crash or a reaction from increased migrant /refegee entry into Europe. [/quote] The homeless and food banks increase is not just a UK problem. There are record high levels across Europe. Unless the evil tories are so evil they're masterminding a Europe wide increase it could be something else responsible. Maybe a bubble from the financial crash or a reaction from increased migrant /refegee entry into Europe. [/quote] Still talking "bubbles" from the financial crisis after all these years? Thing is, real people were out there last night in our great country in the cold and damp, some of them mentally ill, some of them ex soldiers who served Queen and country. We do have enough wealth in this country to put a stop to it, so lets. All the government is thinking about at the moment is Brexit, meanwhile things like this go on and in the future we might all be cold because our electricity generating policy is being neglected. Brexit in or out, let's just get it done and demand our government, whatever shade, looks after us.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 21, 2019 11:51:16 GMT 1
Here's the link I was looking for the other day when I argued that the referendum was only wanted by a "handful of cranks"; www.economist.com/britain/2017/04/03/brexit-a-solution-in-search-of-a-problemAccording to polling data less than 10% of people ranked EU membership as the issue which most concerned them in the DECADE which ran up to the referendum. So, leavers, where were you for those ten years or more? Just out of interest, do we know what was listed as the issues which most concerned them? Best I can find at the minute; www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/importance-key-issues-votingSuggests in 2015, only 7% of people said Europe was a big issue for them whereas close to half cited healthcare, a third cited managing the economy and around a quarter included education (No surprises there in my view). What is interesting, in my opinion, is the stats on immigration; only 19% rating it as a key election concern in 2015. EDIT; just reread, these are periodic polls not annual. The 14% was actually in 2001. We then don't get stats 2001 to 2009. There are several in 2015, Europe hovers between 11% at its peak and 7% at the lowest. That's not to say that there were no dissenting voices at all. Shrewsbury based people might remember the tireless campaigning in the Star letters page of one Bob Wydell, by far the paper's most prolific correspondent. You'd be bending the truth to suggest that it was a burning issue for more than a minority of people though. After all, UKIP only ever delivered a handful of MPs in its time. St Nigel himself was defeated, even in the holy land of Kent. (Cue frantic mental gymnastics as jt searches for a suitable pun and Stuttgart tries desperately to look for some kind of pedantic, one eyed way of reading the situation that suits his point of view).
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Post by venceremos on Jan 21, 2019 12:21:04 GMT 1
Just out of interest, do we know what was listed as the issues which most concerned them? Best I can find at the minute; www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/importance-key-issues-votingSuggests in 2015, only 7% of people said Europe was a big issue for them whereas close to half cited healthcare, a third cited managing the economy and around a quarter included education (No surprises there in my view). What is interesting, in my opinion, is the stats on immigration; only 19% rating it as a key election concern in 2015. EDIT; just reread, these are periodic polls not annual. The 14% was actually in 2001. We then don't get stats 2001 to 2009. There are several in 2015, Europe hovers between 11% at its peak and 7% at the lowest. That's not to say that there were no dissenting voices at all. Shrewsbury based people might remember the tireless campaigning in the Star letters page of one Bob Wydell, by far the paper's most prolific correspondent. You'd be bending the truth to suggest that it was a burning issue for more than a minority of people though. After all, UKIP only ever delivered a handful of MPs in its time. St Nigel himself was defeated, even in the holy land of Kent. (Cue frantic mental gymnastics as jt searches for a suitable pun and Stuttgart tries desperately to look for some kind of pedantic, one eyed way of reading the situation that suits his point of view). I remember Bob Wydell's letters as one of the things that made it easy to cancel our Star delivery about 3 years ago, that and the general ukippy tone of the paper's columnists and editorials.
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Post by martinshrew on Jan 21, 2019 12:38:01 GMT 1
Just out of interest, do we know what was listed as the issues which most concerned them? Best I can find at the minute; www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/importance-key-issues-votingSuggests in 2015, only 7% of people said Europe was a big issue for them whereas close to half cited healthcare, a third cited managing the economy and around a quarter included education (No surprises there in my view). What is interesting, in my opinion, is the stats on immigration; only 19% rating it as a key election concern in 2015. EDIT; just reread, these are periodic polls not annual. The 14% was actually in 2001. We then don't get stats 2001 to 2009. There are several in 2015, Europe hovers between 11% at its peak and 7% at the lowest. That's not to say that there were no dissenting voices at all. Shrewsbury based people might remember the tireless campaigning in the Star letters page of one Bob Wydell, by far the paper's most prolific correspondent. You'd be bending the truth to suggest that it was a burning issue for more than a minority of people though. After all, UKIP only ever delivered a handful of MPs in its time. St Nigel himself was defeated, even in the holy land of Kent. (Cue frantic mental gymnastics as jt searches for a suitable pun and Stuttgart tries desperately to look for some kind of pedantic, one eyed way of reading the situation that suits his point of view). Its widely known that Nigel was defeated by a relatively tight margain, but by an MP that haa been proven to have overspent on expenses. That result should have been void.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 21, 2019 12:39:39 GMT 1
One of the moments that's always stick with me from 2016 was watching Charlie Brooker's 2016 Wipe (for any leavers reading, Brooker is an arch liberal lefty metropolitan elite celebrity member, several pay grades above the likes of venceremos and I in the Soros Shill Corporation).
He was pillorying Corbyn for his appearance on the Last Leg where he'd given a lukewarm response about how positive he was about the EU during the campaign by saying he was a "7 out of 10". Brooker slated him for not being more emphatic but, setting Corbyn's own decades long euro scepticism aside, that was the most honest answer out there for the vast majority of the population, and the fact that even someone like Brooker ignored that fact tells you a lot about how toxic and dumbed down our political discourse has become.
Of course the EU isn't perfect (what political system is?) and many of us, including myself, had misgivings but most of us acknowledged that, by and large, membership was a net benefit but not something to be over zealous about.
What the Leave campaign did very cleverly was remove nuance from the debate by playing on people's fears on highly emotive topics like immigration to instantly polarise the debate. Once that happened, it was much harder for remain. Leave had clearly defined bogeymen you could hang your hat on; the migrants and terrorists the EU was going to let in, the EU super surveillance state.
Remain on the other hand had some grey suited bureaucrats and the simple but true fact that EU membership, whilst unexciting, was doing, on balance, a pretty decent job of delivering peace, prosperity and stability in a continent which, in living memory, had torn itself apart twice through conflicts which cost millions of lives.
Nobody dies in a ditch for dull stability. The blue flag waving, ode to joy humming Europhiles were just as much of a minority interest as UKIP pre 2016.
So the propaganda won, aided and abetted by an infantile press and electorate which can't accept an honest, nuanced position and demands everything in bold black and white with goodies and baddies to cheer for to boot.
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 21, 2019 12:42:52 GMT 1
Best I can find at the minute; www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/importance-key-issues-votingSuggests in 2015, only 7% of people said Europe was a big issue for them whereas close to half cited healthcare, a third cited managing the economy and around a quarter included education (No surprises there in my view). What is interesting, in my opinion, is the stats on immigration; only 19% rating it as a key election concern in 2015. EDIT; just reread, these are periodic polls not annual. The 14% was actually in 2001. We then don't get stats 2001 to 2009. There are several in 2015, Europe hovers between 11% at its peak and 7% at the lowest. That's not to say that there were no dissenting voices at all. Shrewsbury based people might remember the tireless campaigning in the Star letters page of one Bob Wydell, by far the paper's most prolific correspondent. You'd be bending the truth to suggest that it was a burning issue for more than a minority of people though. After all, UKIP only ever delivered a handful of MPs in its time. St Nigel himself was defeated, even in the holy land of Kent. (Cue frantic mental gymnastics as jt searches for a suitable pun and Stuttgart tries desperately to look for some kind of pedantic, one eyed way of reading the situation that suits his point of view). Its widely known that Nigel was defeated by a relatively tight margain, but by an MP that haa been proven to have overspent on expenses. That result should have been void. So widely known you haven't bothered to provide any source for that claim? Also, slight double standard there given the overspending on the part of the Leave campaign isn't there?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 21, 2019 13:44:33 GMT 1
Just out of interest, do we know what was listed as the issues which most concerned them? ...Stuttgart tries desperately to look for some kind of pedantic, one eyed way of reading the situation that suits his point of view. How well you know me... Here are some other links from a quick search... Economy, immigration and healthcare are Britons' top three issues deciding general election vote
Which of the following issues do you think politicians should talk about most...
...most important issues facing the country at this time?So gives a little more information if we are looking to the time leading up to the 2015 election. Although can't be 100% sure of the accuracy, see no reason not to think the surveying was legit. If I missed something, let me know... But the one thing thing I would say (desperately looking for some kind of pedantic, one eyed way of reading the situation that suits my point of view ) is that I believe that concerns with immigration are undoubtedly linked to the EU and free movement of people. So unless I have missed something, these links tell us immigration did play a part, it was one of the main issues leading into the 2015 election. And for me it's difficult to detach concerns about immigration with the EU's freedom of movement (as we know immigration was down as one of the main reasons people voted to leave in the referendum). Immigration has always played a part of course but it really come to the fore in the UK recently because of the unprecedented numbers coming to the UK, with the huge upturn in net migration. And that has come about in no small part because of EU membership... Asylum and immigration has leapt up as a top issue for voters over this parliament, from 14% in March 2010, before the last general election, up to 30% this month.I don't think you can look to the one without the other...
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Post by frankwellshrews on Jan 21, 2019 14:20:08 GMT 1
...Stuttgart tries desperately to look for some kind of pedantic, one eyed way of reading the situation that suits his point of view. How well you know me... Here are some other links from a quick search... Economy, immigration and healthcare are Britons' top three issues deciding general election vote
Which of the following issues do you think politicians should talk about most...
...most important issues facing the country at this time?So gives a little more information if we are looking to the time leading up to the 2015 election. Although can't be 100% sure of the accuracy, see no reason not to think the surveying was legit. If I missed something, let me know... But the one thing thing I would say (desperately looking for some kind of pedantic, one eyed way of reading the situation that suits my point of view ) is that I believe that concerns with immigration are undoubtedly linked to the EU and free movement of people. So unless I have missed something, these links tell us immigration did play a part, it was one of the main issues leading into the 2015 election. And for me it's difficult to detach concerns about immigration with the EU's freedom of movement (as we know immigration was down as one of the main reasons people voted to leave in the referendum). Immigration has always played a part of course but it really come to the fore in the UK recently because of the unprecedented numbers coming to the UK, with the huge upturn in net migration. And that has come about in no small part because of EU membership... Asylum and immigration has leapt up as a top issue for voters over this parliament, from 14% in March 2010, before the last general election, up to 30% this month.I don't think you can look to the one without the other... Shifting the goalposts a bit there aren't you? Europe/EU and immigration were very clearly set out as two different options in both of those sets of polling data (As I understand it you can tag two or more issues in these polls too so it's not like people had to choose one or the other). What that tells you is that, even in polls where immigration was a significant issue, people didn't link it to EU membership until the kind people at vote leave did it for them. I can remember Blair's decision not to limit immigration from the new eu27 states at the time and it was well publicised that it was a UK not an EU decision (something which Blair himself took a lot of flak for). Even at its highest point in your stats, the EU only rates a 26% on voters list of priorities. So if we average out 26, 11 and 7 across the range of various polls we've just looked at, a back of a fag packet calculation suggests just under 15% seeing it as a key issue on average. Feels about right to me, to be honest.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 21, 2019 15:12:33 GMT 1
How well you know me... Here are some other links from a quick search... Economy, immigration and healthcare are Britons' top three issues deciding general election vote
Which of the following issues do you think politicians should talk about most...
...most important issues facing the country at this time?So gives a little more information if we are looking to the time leading up to the 2015 election. Although can't be 100% sure of the accuracy, see no reason not to think the surveying was legit. If I missed something, let me know... But the one thing thing I would say (desperately looking for some kind of pedantic, one eyed way of reading the situation that suits my point of view ) is that I believe that concerns with immigration are undoubtedly linked to the EU and free movement of people. So unless I have missed something, these links tell us immigration did play a part, it was one of the main issues leading into the 2015 election. And for me it's difficult to detach concerns about immigration with the EU's freedom of movement (as we know immigration was down as one of the main reasons people voted to leave in the referendum). Immigration has always played a part of course but it really come to the fore in the UK recently because of the unprecedented numbers coming to the UK, with the huge upturn in net migration. And that has come about in no small part because of EU membership... Asylum and immigration has leapt up as a top issue for voters over this parliament, from 14% in March 2010, before the last general election, up to 30% this month.I don't think you can look to the one without the other... Shifting the goalposts a bit there aren't you? Europe/EU and immigration were very clearly set out as two different options in both of those sets of polling data (As I understand it you can tag two or more issues in these polls too so it's not like people had to choose one or the other). What that tells you is that, even in polls where immigration was a significant issue, people didn't link it to EU membership until the kind people at vote leave did it for them. I can remember Blair's decision not to limit immigration from the new eu27 states at the time and it was well publicised that it was a UK not an EU decision (something which Blair himself took a lot of flak for). Even at its highest point in your stats, the EU only rates a 26% on voters list of priorities. So if we average out 26, 11 and 7 across the range of various polls we've just looked at, a back of a fag packet calculation suggests just under 15% seeing it as a key issue on average. Feels about right to me, to be honest. Yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. We clearly see things differently. I firmly believe that when listing immigration that is linked to freedom and movement and therefore in turn, membership of the EU. Just because they are set out as two different options doesn't mean they are not linked and they are linked, considering EU membership has seen unprecedented net migration numbers to the UK due to freedom of movement. That's not moving the goal posts, to me that just common sense. One is a direct result of the other.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 20:44:35 GMT 1
Of course immigration was an issue. I mean, Farage yapped on about dodgy Romanians enough during the build up to the ref.
What Farage and others (Daily Mail and suchlike) did was make it an issue. Stoke the fire so to speak.
As it happens I have Romanian neighbours, and lovely they are to.
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Post by venceremos on Jan 21, 2019 22:14:47 GMT 1
Best I can find at the minute; www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/importance-key-issues-votingSuggests in 2015, only 7% of people said Europe was a big issue for them whereas close to half cited healthcare, a third cited managing the economy and around a quarter included education (No surprises there in my view). What is interesting, in my opinion, is the stats on immigration; only 19% rating it as a key election concern in 2015. EDIT; just reread, these are periodic polls not annual. The 14% was actually in 2001. We then don't get stats 2001 to 2009. There are several in 2015, Europe hovers between 11% at its peak and 7% at the lowest. That's not to say that there were no dissenting voices at all. Shrewsbury based people might remember the tireless campaigning in the Star letters page of one Bob Wydell, by far the paper's most prolific correspondent. You'd be bending the truth to suggest that it was a burning issue for more than a minority of people though. After all, UKIP only ever delivered a handful of MPs in its time. St Nigel himself was defeated, even in the holy land of Kent. (Cue frantic mental gymnastics as jt searches for a suitable pun and Stuttgart tries desperately to look for some kind of pedantic, one eyed way of reading the situation that suits his point of view). Its widely known that Nigel was defeated by a relatively tight margain, but by an MP that haa been proven to have overspent on expenses. That result should have been void. I see what you did there. You a secret remainer?
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Post by venceremos on Jan 21, 2019 22:23:44 GMT 1
Of course immigration was an issue. I mean, Farage yapped on about dodgy Romanians enough during the build up to the ref. What Farage and others (Daily Mail and suchlike) did was make it an issue. Stoke the fire so to speak. As it happens I have Romanian neighbours, and lovely they are to. “Stoke the fire” - nice, I like the wordplay. Well, we can’t choose our neighbours. Ours are British brexiteers, we’re not very exotic round our way. Lovely isn’t a word I’d use for ‘em but we get on fine.
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Post by neilsalop on Jan 23, 2019 15:27:04 GMT 1
Best I can find at the minute; www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/importance-key-issues-votingSuggests in 2015, only 7% of people said Europe was a big issue for them whereas close to half cited healthcare, a third cited managing the economy and around a quarter included education (No surprises there in my view). What is interesting, in my opinion, is the stats on immigration; only 19% rating it as a key election concern in 2015. EDIT; just reread, these are periodic polls not annual. The 14% was actually in 2001. We then don't get stats 2001 to 2009. There are several in 2015, Europe hovers between 11% at its peak and 7% at the lowest. That's not to say that there were no dissenting voices at all. Shrewsbury based people might remember the tireless campaigning in the Star letters page of one Bob Wydell, by far the paper's most prolific correspondent. You'd be bending the truth to suggest that it was a burning issue for more than a minority of people though. After all, UKIP only ever delivered a handful of MPs in its time. St Nigel himself was defeated, even in the holy land of Kent. (Cue frantic mental gymnastics as jt searches for a suitable pun and Stuttgart tries desperately to look for some kind of pedantic, one eyed way of reading the situation that suits his point of view). Its widely known that Nigel was defeated by a relatively tight margain, but by an MP that haa been proven to have overspent on expenses. That result should have been void. Oh the irony. Stop it, I nearly wee'd myself.
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Post by Pilch on Jan 23, 2019 15:32:04 GMT 1
Putting aside our obvious differences on this, I came across a report that should alarm even the most hardened brexiteer. Bart De Strooper is Belgian and heads the UK Dementia Research Institute. This was set up in 2016 with £250m funding and aims to make the UK a world leader in dementia research. He says he now faces two major problems, recruitment and funding. The Institute has 250 researchers and hopes to reach 700, but it's becoming hard to recruit the talented foreign scientists needed because they see the UK as anti-European and anti-international. The Home Office does little to help, refusing without explanation to grant visas to well paid foreign scientific experts seeking to attend seminars here. It seems we're happy for any footballers to come here, but not scientists. The UK has done well in attracting EU funding for scientific research. Between 2007-13, the UK paid €5.4bn towards R&D activities in the EU but received €8.8bn in EU grants for research projects carried out in the UK. This would certainly end with a no deal brexit. A major source of scientific funding would be lost and, as the UK government is forecast to have lower revenues, it would be unable to make up for the loss. Our dementia research programme would stall, other countries would take the lead and we'd lose the chance of earlier improved treatments and the economic benefits of the medications we might otherwise discover. This isn't intended to be an anti-brexit rant. I just don't believe any of us would want this outcome. Sometimes the arguments get too emotional and irrational but there are real consequences like this that mustn't be ignored in the general debate. If there's to be a no deal brexit, at least ask those pushing for it how they would deal with a problem like this. not even read this it will either be pro remain, or pro exit. (whatever you were before) a different approach ? my guess it will be the same approach but a new thread perhaps I could have started a new thread to make this point ;-)
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Post by neilsalop on Jan 23, 2019 15:45:09 GMT 1
Of course immigration was an issue. I mean, Farage yapped on about dodgy Romanians enough during the build up to the ref. What Farage and others (Daily Mail and suchlike) did was make it an issue. Stoke the fire so to speak. As it happens I have Romanian neighbours, and lovely they are to. Don't forget Boris and the 80million Turks just chomping at the bit to get their Ryan Air flights booked.
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Post by venceremos on Jan 23, 2019 17:30:55 GMT 1
Putting aside our obvious differences on this, I came across a report that should alarm even the most hardened brexiteer. Bart De Strooper is Belgian and heads the UK Dementia Research Institute. This was set up in 2016 with £250m funding and aims to make the UK a world leader in dementia research. He says he now faces two major problems, recruitment and funding. The Institute has 250 researchers and hopes to reach 700, but it's becoming hard to recruit the talented foreign scientists needed because they see the UK as anti-European and anti-international. The Home Office does little to help, refusing without explanation to grant visas to well paid foreign scientific experts seeking to attend seminars here. It seems we're happy for any footballers to come here, but not scientists. The UK has done well in attracting EU funding for scientific research. Between 2007-13, the UK paid €5.4bn towards R&D activities in the EU but received €8.8bn in EU grants for research projects carried out in the UK. This would certainly end with a no deal brexit. A major source of scientific funding would be lost and, as the UK government is forecast to have lower revenues, it would be unable to make up for the loss. Our dementia research programme would stall, other countries would take the lead and we'd lose the chance of earlier improved treatments and the economic benefits of the medications we might otherwise discover. This isn't intended to be an anti-brexit rant. I just don't believe any of us would want this outcome. Sometimes the arguments get too emotional and irrational but there are real consequences like this that mustn't be ignored in the general debate. If there's to be a no deal brexit, at least ask those pushing for it how they would deal with a problem like this. not even read this it will either be pro remain, or pro exit. (whatever you were before) a different approach ? my guess it will be the same approach but a new thread perhaps I could have started a new thread to make this point ;-) Perhaps you could have read it and then you might have been spared the need to write b******s. Or just not bother to write about what you hadn't bothered to read.
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Post by timgallon on Jan 23, 2019 18:06:42 GMT 1
So, leavers, where were you for those ten years or more? Busy polishing their boots and practicing their goose step! Crude and inaccurate stereotyping really doesn’t do your cause any favours. Carry on though. I think you are definitely winning Leavers over to your way of thinking.
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Post by timgallon on Jan 23, 2019 18:11:56 GMT 1
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Post by Pilch on Jan 24, 2019 3:10:17 GMT 1
not even read this it will either be pro remain, or pro exit. (whatever you were before) a different approach ? my guess it will be the same approach but a new thread perhaps I could have started a new thread to make this point ;-) Perhaps you could have read it and then you might have been spared the need to write b******s. Or just not bother to write about what you hadn't bothered to read. I have read it and like I said, yes its an init Brexit argument so much so you though it worthy of a new thread 2 sides to every story perhaps I should google something and copy and paste it to back up my argument like you did
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Post by venceremos on Jan 24, 2019 11:31:49 GMT 1
Perhaps you could have read it and then you might have been spared the need to write b******s. Or just not bother to write about what you hadn't bothered to read. I have read it and like I said, yes its an init Brexit argument so much so you though it worthy of a new thread 2 sides to every story perhaps I should google something and copy and paste it to back up my argument like you did Great, you read it after you commented. Well done, have a biscuit. I didn't present it as my own - I read the original article, thought dementia research was important (don't you?), hadn't seen this aspect mentioned anywhere else (hence I wrote " different take" in the title) and wrote a precis - we didn't call that copy and paste at my school. The piece was about scientific research generally and a specific area of medical research in particular. I could have put it in the latest of many brexit threads but thought it justified its own. Should every topic that might have a brexit angle go into one brexit thread? Should we do that with football too? Shoot me down, I didn't realise threads were rationed but you're the only one who seems to mind about that. Thanks for your thoughtful contribution.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jan 24, 2019 11:57:59 GMT 1
The whole thing, including having a referendum in the first place, has been done to prevent the Tory party splitting.
The Tories have put party before Country.
Holding a referendum in the first place, now trying to cobble together an awful compromise deal to try to get it through parliament and save the Tory party.
It stinks!
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Post by Pilch on Jan 24, 2019 11:58:10 GMT 1
I have read it and like I said, yes its an init Brexit argument so much so you though it worthy of a new thread 2 sides to every story perhaps I should google something and copy and paste it to back up my argument like you did Great, you read it after you commented. Well done, have a biscuit. I didn't present it as my own - I read the original article, thought dementia research was important (don't you?), hadn't seen this aspect mentioned anywhere else (hence I wrote " different take" in the title) and wrote a precis - we didn't call that copy and paste at my school. The piece was about scientific research generally and a specific area of medical research in particular. I could have put it in the latest of many brexit threads but thought it justified its own. Should every topic that might have a brexit angle go into one brexit thread? Should we do that with football too? Shoot me down, I didn't realise threads were rationed but you're the only one who seems to mind about that. Thanks for your thoughtful contribution. the uk population growth has slowed since the Brexit vote leaving the EU should mean it slows even further less people ( millions ) for the NHS to treat can only be a positive thanks for the biscuit by the way
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Post by keithb123 on Jan 24, 2019 13:08:44 GMT 1
Of course immigration was an issue. I mean, Farage yapped on about dodgy Romanians enough during the build up to the ref. What Farage and others (Daily Mail and suchlike) did was make it an issue. Stoke the fire so to speak. As it happens I have Romanian neighbours, and lovely they are to. Don't forget Boris and the 80million Turks just chomping at the bit to get their Ryan Air flights booked.
Except Ryanair flights from Turkey only go to Dublin & Bratislava
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crayfish
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Post by crayfish on Jan 24, 2019 14:32:25 GMT 1
I would say one thing to those remainers who say the EU has by enlarge brought prosperity to Europe. Greece. That is not to mention mass youth unemployment in Italy Spain and Portugal. The euro and European Union has been an effing disaster for those countries and one that can't be blamed on Nigel Farage and the evil tories.
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Post by salop27 on Jan 24, 2019 14:37:35 GMT 1
The whole thing, including having a referendum in the first place, has been done to prevent the Tory party splitting. The Tories have put party before Country. Holding a referendum in the first place, now trying to cobble together an awful compromise deal to try to get it through parliament and save the Tory party. It stinks! The vote to hold a referendum passed in parliament by nearly 500 votes. Mps passed the question onto the people and the people gave them an answer.
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Post by neilsalop on Jan 24, 2019 15:55:03 GMT 1
Great, you read it after you commented. Well done, have a biscuit. I didn't present it as my own - I read the original article, thought dementia research was important (don't you?), hadn't seen this aspect mentioned anywhere else (hence I wrote " different take" in the title) and wrote a precis - we didn't call that copy and paste at my school. The piece was about scientific research generally and a specific area of medical research in particular. I could have put it in the latest of many brexit threads but thought it justified its own. Should every topic that might have a brexit angle go into one brexit thread? Should we do that with football too? Shoot me down, I didn't realise threads were rationed but you're the only one who seems to mind about that. Thanks for your thoughtful contribution. the uk population growth has slowed since the Brexit vote leaving the EU should mean it slows even further less people ( millions ) for the NHS to treat can only be a positive thanks for the biscuit by the way Oh that's alright then. Fewer working age immigrants from the EU, fewer doctors and nurses, an aging population and no carers. It's a good job all those Johnny Foreigners aren't going be clogging the A+Es up, it will leave more room for the elderly to wait 8 hours on a trolley.
I work with loads of Eastern Europeans and everyone of them works hard, pay their taxes and NI, most run cars, others keep taxi drivers in work and most importantly they spend most of their money in the UK/ local economy. If we sign trade deals with likes of China, India, Pakistan, Singapore or anyone else the first thing on their list will be VISAs and you can bet that a larger %age of those people will be sending money home hand over fist and that's money that will not be spent in the local economy. This is not speculation, it is a nailed on guarantee, a friend works in a Western Union office and the vast majority of the money going out of the country through them is to Africa, the Sub-Continent and South East Asia. Granted some does still go to Eastern Europe, but not in the amounts that goes elsewhere.
If you think that we are an important figure in world trade any more and can dictate our own terms, you need to think again. Somehow we are still hanging on to 7th place, but it is actually the service sector (finance, insurance, etc.) counts for 80% of the economy and most financial institutions are making contingency plans for post-Brexit business, our pharmaceutical industry is currently the 10th largest in the world, but is expected to take a big hit from Brexit. Manufacturing makes up less than 10% of the economy. The only growth sector that I can currently see is the market for hi-viz vests for Tommy and his mates and they're probably all made in Bangladeshi sweat shops.
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Post by Pilch on Jan 24, 2019 16:51:53 GMT 1
the uk population growth has slowed since the Brexit vote leaving the EU should mean it slows even further less people ( millions ) for the NHS to treat can only be a positive thanks for the biscuit by the way Oh that's alright then. Fewer working age immigrants from the EU, fewer doctors and nurses, an aging population and no carers. It's a good job all those Johnny Foreigners aren't going be clogging the A+Es up, it will leave more room for the elderly to wait 8 hours on a trolley.
I work with loads of Eastern Europeans and everyone of them works hard, pay their taxes and NI, most run cars, others keep taxi drivers in work and most importantly they spend most of their money in the UK/ local economy. If we sign trade deals with likes of China, India, Pakistan, Singapore or anyone else the first thing on their list will be VISAs and you can bet that a larger %age of those people will be sending money home hand over fist and that's money that will not be spent in the local economy. This is not speculation, it is a nailed on guarantee, a friend works in a Western Union office and the vast majority of the money going out of the country through them is to Africa, the Sub-Continent and South East Asia. Granted some does still go to Eastern Europe, but not in the amounts that goes elsewhere.
If you think that we are an important figure in world trade any more and can dictate our own terms, you need to think again. Somehow we are still hanging on to 7th place, but it is actually the service sector (finance, insurance, etc.) counts for 80% of the economy and most financial institutions are making contingency plans for post-Brexit business, our pharmaceutical industry is currently the 10th largest in the world, but is expected to take a big hit from Brexit. Manufacturing makes up less than 10% of the economy. The only growth sector that I can currently see is the market for hi-viz vests for Tommy and his mates and they're probably all made in Bangladeshi sweat shops. we can be more selective at the border, its not all or nothing
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