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Post by keithb123 on Dec 11, 2018 11:50:35 GMT 1
All this talk of a 2nd referendum is stupid beyond belief and it is an almost certainty that if there was another then we would have to go back to the EU with our tail between our legs begging for forgiveness.
We have had a vote, we voted to leave and that should be final. The deal on offer is total cr@p but that doesn't mean we should go and have another vote because the government are incompetent. The EU will be *ing themselves laughing at the UK just waiting for us to plead with them and say we are sorry.. What a load of tripe. I voted to leave and I still want to leave.
What would happen in a general election if after a few months we didnt like what they were doing? The people couldnt force another election could they? It would be undemocratic... Oh, wait a second
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Post by camdenshrew on Dec 11, 2018 11:51:17 GMT 1
Somebody's been overdosing on the Brexit Kool-aid:
"If Cameron had handed over to David Davies, or JRM or dare say it BoJo, then i feel we would be in a much stronger position."
"If we leave with No Deal, the EU are buggered."
"We may have a couple of years of further hardship, so what!!"
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Post by keithb123 on Dec 11, 2018 11:51:41 GMT 1
If there is to be a 2nd referendum, the choice should NOT just be between the Chequers Agreement and staying in the EU. Her dog's breakfast of a deal is clearly worse than actually staying in the EU. Both sides can see this, so setting up the referendum like that would effectively rig it in favour of the Remainers. No. The referendum should be the same as the 1st one. In or out, with it being made quite clear to the electorate that out will mean a hard Brexit. Agree 100%
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 11:57:01 GMT 1
Somebody's been overdosing on the Brexit Kool-aid: "If Cameron had handed over to David Davies, or JRM or dare say it BoJo, then i feel we would be in a much stronger position." "If we leave with No Deal, the EU are buggered." "We may have a couple of years of further hardship, so what!!" Be interesting to see your opinions as to why you disagree rather than a condescending post which is more trying to belittle what was actually said. But then again, that signify s the whole mantra of the debate does it not!! Try to belittle people rather than post an argument.
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Post by martinshrew on Dec 11, 2018 12:18:03 GMT 1
Somebody's been overdosing on the Brexit Kool-aid: "If Cameron had handed over to David Davies, or JRM or dare say it BoJo, then i feel we would be in a much stronger position." "If we leave with No Deal, the EU are buggered." "We may have a couple of years of further hardship, so what!!" I agree with those statements above.
Rather than mock them, maybe some form of counter arguement would be useful?
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Post by shropshirelad42 on Dec 11, 2018 12:22:45 GMT 1
It really makes my blood boil when certain people say "THE BREXITEERS DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE VOTING FOR".
I knew 'exactly what I was voting for, and it had nothing to do with immigration. And at the end of it I expected a few years of hardship until our 'brilliant' heads of businesses sorted it all out, and we were again a wonderful independent 'free trading' nation once more.
After seeing what is happening in France, and what the American press is saying about what they think will happen in German politics after Angela Merkel leaves, and not to mention that Greece, Spain and Italy are pretty much in dire straits with their economies, I am more convinced than ever that we need to go it alone.
That is just my opinion, and I respect that others feel differently.
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Post by martinshrew on Dec 11, 2018 12:34:35 GMT 1
It really makes my blood boil when certain people say "THE BREXITEERS DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THEY WERE VOTING FOR". I knew 'exactly what I was voting for, and it had nothing to do with immigration. And at the end of it I expected a few years of hardship until our 'brilliant' heads of businesses sorted it all out, and we were again a wonderful independent 'free trading' nation once more. After seeing what is happening in France, and what the American press is saying about what they think will happen in German politics after Angela Merkel leaves, and not to mention that Greece, Spain and Italy are pretty much in dire straits with their economies, I am more convinced than ever that we need to go it alone. That is just my opinion, and I respect that others feel differently. Completely agree.
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Post by shrewder on Dec 11, 2018 12:54:11 GMT 1
The problem is yes 52% voted to leave the EU. However as we all know what that really meant was impossible to be clearly defined at the time. So now we know what leaving means , it's still not acceptable to certain elements. Now I am no supporter of Theresa May but I do wonder what those MPs against the deal she negotiated expected. I believe whoever had been leading the negotiations from any party, we would still have more or less ended up with the same terms. The mistake in the first place was with David Cameron for not laying before the electorate the truth about the torturous route ahead if they voted to leave the EU. What the final outcome will be , who knows but personally it will take a lot of convincing to believe that we are going to be better off leaving the EU after what we have seen over the last 2 years of negotiations. The problem was caused at the outset when article 50 was invoked. This isn't, and never has been. a party political issue but the Tories have treated it like one by trying, when they don't even have a majority in the commons, to plough a lone furrow and try to force through their version or interpretation of brexit. The opportunity has now been sadly lost, but what was required at the outset was a cross-party approach to the brexit negotiations involving politicians from all sides, that was the only way this could ever have succeeded and had a consensus in the commons. This was a unique situation that required a unique solution. Typical Tory arrogance has brought us to this position, they think they know better and won't listen to anyone else's view. I do completely agree with your comments about Cameron though. History will be very harsh on him whichever direction this now goes. Agree should have been cross party
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Post by scooter on Dec 11, 2018 12:56:07 GMT 1
Somebody's been overdosing on the Brexit Kool-aid: "If Cameron had handed over to David Davies, or JRM or dare say it BoJo, then i feel we would be in a much stronger position." "If we leave with No Deal, the EU are buggered." "We may have a couple of years of further hardship, so what!!" Be interesting to see your opinions as to why you disagree rather than a condescending post which is more trying to belittle what was actually said. But then again, that signify s the whole mantra of the debate does it not!! Try to belittle people rather than post an argument. None of them even stood against May, because they knew they had no chance of getting elected. Basically, they didn’t know what to do when they won the referendum, Johnson and Gove fell out and no one else stepped up The whole problem has been caused by the Tory party not making their mind up for 40 years, and then finally dragging the country into their internal row one more point, another referendum will be the third not the second. I am currently 1-1, but would now be definitely remain if I got another chance, because this Brexit lot don’t know what they want or how to get it
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 12:59:44 GMT 1
None of them even stood against May, because they knew they had no chance of getting elected. If my memory serves me correctly both Gove and Johnson both stood, and they seemed to make a deal, where Johnson stood down, the Gove stabbed him in the back, so yes they did stand against her!!
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Post by SeanBroseley on Dec 11, 2018 13:00:40 GMT 1
Breaking news on Associated Press is that May plans on having a vote on 21st January. Daring the Commons to vote it down at the 11th hour.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 13:01:40 GMT 1
one more point, another referendum will be the third not the second. I am currently 1-1, but would now be definitely remain if I got another chance, because this Brexit lot don’t know what they want or how to get it I will be quite happy if the next referendum is held 41 years after the last, and to see an impact of what has occurred. but think the 75 ref was for a common market rather than full rule from Brussles...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 13:04:32 GMT 1
I always come back to the fact that the under 45's voted overwhelmingly to remain. The older generations (myself included) do not necessarily know best and many of us will not be around to witness whatever occurs. Perhaps the younger generation have a greater vision for Europe rather than having their opinions clouded by the past.
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Post by scooter on Dec 11, 2018 13:04:53 GMT 1
None of them even stood against May, because they knew they had no chance of getting elected. If my memory serves me correctly both Gove and Johnson both stood, and they seemed to make a deal, where Johnson stood down, the Gove stabbed him in the back, so yes they did stand against her!! Sorry, yes, Gove stood but was knocked out in the first ballot. Then Leadsom withdrew, and May was elected unopposed. It was clear none of the hard brexit supporters were going to get close
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 13:06:27 GMT 1
I always come back to the fact that the under 45's voted overwhelmingly to remain. The older generations (myself included) do not necessarily know best and many of us will not be around to witness whatever occurs. Perhaps the younger generation have a greater vision for Europe rather than having their opinions clouded by the past. This, well said.
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Post by mattmw on Dec 11, 2018 13:08:17 GMT 1
For those saying a brexit supporter should have been in charge of the process, I’d question why no one has put themselves forward for that position?
May has been a lame duck leader since the general election, against a weak and disorganised opposition. Brexit according to brexit supporters will bring great benefits to the U.K. and we know it’s supported by over half the people who voted in the referendum. It’s just not been done right by remainers
Surely whoever leads us out in March will go down in history as a national hero, with statues built in their name for years to come
So there should be a long line of Conservative MPs desperate for the job of PM and all the acclaim that will go with it - come on Johnson, Davies, Rabb or Gove or any other brexiter. Make a bid for the leadership, put your plan into action and let’s get on with it - or is there something holding you back from carrying out your civic duty?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 13:15:31 GMT 1
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Post by percy on Dec 11, 2018 13:16:09 GMT 1
If there is to be a 2nd referendum, the choice should NOT just be between the Chequers Agreement and staying in the EU. Her dog's breakfast of a deal is clearly worse than actually staying in the EU. Both sides can see this, so setting up the referendum like that would effectively rig it in favour of the Remainers. No. The referendum should be the same as the 1st one. In or out, with it being made quite clear to the electorate that out will mean a hard Brexit. Completely agree with this. The EU have proven that a negotiated exit will never be on good terms so our only options are hard brexit or remain. This is a fundamental change from the bulls**t that we were fed by both sides in the first referendum and so a second referendum s needed. When you discussed civil wars in history it was impossible to conceive of this kind of thing in a modern context (death penalty aside) but here we have it. Families divided with no clear split by geography or social class.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 13:19:33 GMT 1
For those saying a brexit supporter should have been in charge of the process, I’d question why no one has put themselves forward for that position? May has been a lame duck leader since the general election, against a weak and disorganised opposition. Brexit according to brexit supporters will bring great benefits to the U.K. and we know it’s supported by over half the people who voted in the referendum. It’s just not been done right by remainers Surely whoever leads us out in March will go down in history as a national hero, with statues built in their name for years to come So there should be a long line of Conservative MPs desperate for the job of PM and all the acclaim that will go with it - come on Johnson, Davies, Rabb or Gove or any other brexiter. Make a bid for the leadership, put your plan into action and let’s get on with it - or is there something holding you back from carrying out your civic duty? This I agree with, however you also have to ask yourselves as to the make up of the MP's in question, most whom believe that the populace are stupid and have made the wrong decision, and are all pro EU... until they carry out the wishes of the people, it will never get through the house!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 13:25:32 GMT 1
I can only see an election being the way to solve this, but prior to that, if a constituency has voted to remain, then the MP for that area should also be someone who believes in remaining. If they voted Leave, and the candidate does not believe in leaving, they should be barred from standing or at least each party should have a candidate from both sides to choose from prior to the Election.
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Post by staffordshrew on Dec 11, 2018 13:27:44 GMT 1
The problem is yes 52% voted to leave the EU. However as we all know what that really meant was impossible to be clearly defined at the time. So now we know what leaving means , it's still not acceptable to certain elements. Now I am no supporter of Theresa May but I do wonder what those MPs against the deal she negotiated expected. I believe whoever had been leading the negotiations from any party, we would still have more or less ended up with the same terms. The mistake in the first place was with David Cameron for not laying before the electorate the truth about the torturous route ahead if they voted to leave the EU. What the final outcome will be , who knows but personally it will take a lot of convincing to believe that we are going to be better off leaving the EU after what we have seen over the last 2 years of negotiations. I value your opinion, but i disagree. TM is a remainer, always has been and always will be. If Cameron had handed over to David Davies, or JRM or dare say it BoJo, then i feel we would be in a much stronger position. TM has started in Europe and begged to be released from some of its regulation, which to be fair to the EU they have given very little. Where as if we had a BREXIT orientated PM, then we would be in a different position, our opening Gambit would be We are leaving, its in your interests as well as yours for us to reach an agreement. The EU are running scared, or were until TM was made Prime Minister, they then knew they were in for an easy ride, make no mistakes about it, if we leave with No Deal, the EU are buggered, one if its 4 main contributors are going to leave. and they will get nothing, and whats more, despite the fear that is being pumped into everyone, this country will survive, we will be great!! we have some of the best companies in the world, we wont starve and we wont all die of the Lurgi.... we may have a couple of years of further hardship, so what!! If Labour by the way had a stable leader, with some decent people behind it rather than McDonald and Abbott, then they would possibly even get my vote after the cock ups the Conservatives have made. Wow, McDonald and Abbott have to go and a new leader has to be found. An opportunity to get Downie voting Labour cannot be missed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 13:28:01 GMT 1
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 13:28:44 GMT 1
It is factually correct that the under 45's voted overwhelmingly to remain in the referendum.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 13:29:52 GMT 1
If there is to be a 2nd referendum, the choice should NOT just be between the Chequers Agreement and staying in the EU. Her dog's breakfast of a deal is clearly worse than actually staying in the EU. Both sides can see this, so setting up the referendum like that would effectively rig it in favour of the Remainers. No. The referendum should be the same as the 1st one. In or out, with it being made quite clear to the electorate that out will mean a hard Brexit. Families divided with no clear split by geography or social class. Not strictly true I feel. See link I post in reply to Downie.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 13:31:35 GMT 1
It is factually correct that the under 45's voted overwhelmingly to remain in the referendum. Where have these facts been sourced because I factually cannot find an overwhelming number to substantiate that!! and that means speaking to people. As we have for every general election since 1979, Ipsos MORI has produced estimates of how the voters voted in the recent EU referendum. Just out of interest, why could the British Government not bail out Rover in 2007(I think), which led to loads of jobs in OUR car industry declining further. The UK Government at the time wanted to help, but could not!! WHY??
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Post by mattmw on Dec 11, 2018 13:35:46 GMT 1
For those saying a brexit supporter should have been in charge of the process, I’d question why no one has put themselves forward for that position? May has been a lame duck leader since the general election, against a weak and disorganised opposition. Brexit according to brexit supporters will bring great benefits to the U.K. and we know it’s supported by over half the people who voted in the referendum. It’s just not been done right by remainers Surely whoever leads us out in March will go down in history as a national hero, with statues built in their name for years to come So there should be a long line of Conservative MPs desperate for the job of PM and all the acclaim that will go with it - come on Johnson, Davies, Rabb or Gove or any other brexiter. Make a bid for the leadership, put your plan into action and let’s get on with it - or is there something holding you back from carrying out your civic duty? This I agree with, however you also have to ask yourselves as to the make up of the MP's in question, most whom believe that the populace are stupid and have made the wrong decision, and are all pro EU... until they carry out the wishes of the people, it will never get through the house!! That’s a rather downbeat view of things? Surely with someone like Johnson as PM, or even a Gove or Rabb leadership the benefits of leaving, together with a renegotiation with the EU on leave terms the benefits of leaving will be clear to Parliament and it will be easy to get the vote passed Worst case would be for the new leadership of the Conservatives to call an election with a clear manifesto pledge to leave the EU on our terms, and insist the MPs standing stood on that pledge - would surely win popular support at an election then have the mandate to pass the process through Parliament Time for leave MPs to step up to the plate and deliver, not let their opportunity slip by
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 11, 2018 13:37:17 GMT 1
I always come back to the fact that the under 45's voted overwhelmingly to remain. The older generations (myself included) do not necessarily know best and many of us will not be around to witness whatever occurs. Perhaps the younger generation have a greater vision for Europe rather than having their opinions clouded by the past. I suspect an awful lot of over 45's have children and care deeply about what the future brings, they still care for whatever occurs. Why would they not? And likewise, under 45's do not necessarily know best.
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Post by percy on Dec 11, 2018 13:52:39 GMT 1
Families divided with no clear split by geography or social class. Not strictly true I feel. See link I post in reply to Downie. Thanks - that is a really interesting breakdown. The socio-economic breakdown would give weight to the argument that Brexit has just provided a focal point for the pre-existing divisions in society. Actually - looking at the breakdown for political parties you have to wonder why Corbyn is not reflecting the will of his voters. I'm sure if we had Chucka we'd be in a better place.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 11, 2018 14:14:58 GMT 1
Not strictly true I feel. See link I post in reply to Downie. Actually - looking at the breakdown for political parties you have to wonder why Corbyn is not reflecting the will of his voters. Its a fine balancing act for him though isn't it? He's already lost some of the core Labour vote to the Tories (by that I mean in the last election the Tories were up in both ABC1 and C2DE categories), he may lose more if he were to allow a reversal of the referendum result. Maybe Labour are concerned about the impact it would have when looking to the election in that it may not bring about the win as some expect? They may lose as much as they gain in an election? Plus of course I don't think he is a huge fan of the EU.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 15:17:23 GMT 1
It is factually correct that the under 45's voted overwhelmingly to remain in the referendum. Where have these facts been sourced because I factually cannot find an overwhelming number to substantiate that!! and that means speaking to people. As we have for every general election since 1979, Ipsos MORI has produced estimates of how the voters voted in the recent EU referendum. Just out of interest, why could the British Government not bail out Rover in 2007(I think), which led to loads of jobs in OUR car industry declining further. The UK Government at the time wanted to help, but could not!! WHY?? This response is symptomatic of a lot that was wrong with the Leave campaign who on one notable occasion said they would refuse to listen to experts. You would far rather take the opinions of a very small coterie of persons rather than the very much larger survey by IPSOS which was also broadly supported by Lord Ashcroft Polls.
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