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Post by salop27 on Dec 1, 2018 14:50:03 GMT 1
December could be the month all hell breaks loose. MPs are moving to effectively stop Brexit. May's half hearted attempt at a deal will be voted down. The EU have said this is it, there is nothing else on offer. There will then be a parliamentary vote to stop the UK leaving without a deal. This will not be legally binding but it will be up to May to decide. Will she go with the people or Parliament? As a remainer she'll choose parliament everytime 😠😠😠 This will be the ultimate betrayel by Parliament over the working classes. I'll be sharpening my pitchfork...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 15:48:16 GMT 1
I have often thought of myself- and indeed called myself, as socialist. I am starting to think I am unclean, or something. Well, you looked a bit shabby last time I saw you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 15:58:07 GMT 1
The point is, as pointed out by Mattw and me upthread, is that people trot out the Socialist line, without realising that Marxist economic policies have been used by middle-of-the-road Labour and Tories in the past. So, personally, when people use Socialism, which is in fact Social Democracy (there's a difference) as a stick to beat Corbyn and McDonnell with, I laugh. So, people can do and say what they like, without actually reading, or studying what they are talking about. And I can chuckle about, like my mate and I do. Well he has at times spoken specifically about socialism, bringing a socialist society to the UK. No mention of social democracy along with those comments. So he has stated himself that he is a socialist and he has spoken about transforming the UK into a socialist society. And as for social democracy, that, as far as I am aware, is a capitalist system. Something McDonnell has stated he wishes to overthrow. We'll have to agree to disagree but for me, considering what he comes out with, it's perfectly acceptable for people to trot out the "socialism" line when it comes to Labour as long as McDonnell continues as Shadow Chancellor and as long as he keeps coming out with that he comes out with. Hardly a surprise some are wary of Labour because of it. That he is the Shadow Chancellor, that he is a self confessed Marxist and that he said there is a lot to be learnt from Das Kapital, its hardly surprising people are wary, wary of where this might all end if he was the Chancellor. There's nothing in here about the overthrow of Capitalism. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/11/jeremy-corbyn-close-deficit-poor-labour-economylabour.org.uk/issue/economy/Social Democracy is about working with in the Capitalist system, but regulating it. I really can't believe I am explaining this. But there you go.
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Post by jamo on Dec 1, 2018 16:20:34 GMT 1
I have often thought of myself- and indeed called myself, as socialist. I am starting to think I am unclean, or something. Well, you looked a bit shabby last time I saw you. Yep. I must have a word with myself.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 16:22:47 GMT 1
Well, you looked a bit shabby last time I saw you. Yep. I must have a word with myself. Not seen you around much.
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Post by jamo on Dec 1, 2018 16:24:49 GMT 1
Well he has at times spoken specifically about socialism, bringing a socialist society to the UK. No mention of social democracy along with those comments. So he has stated himself that he is a socialist and he has spoken about transforming the UK into a socialist society. And as for social democracy, that, as far as I am aware, is a capitalist system. Something McDonnell has stated he wishes to overthrow. We'll have to agree to disagree but for me, considering what he comes out with, it's perfectly acceptable for people to trot out the "socialism" line when it comes to Labour as long as McDonnell continues as Shadow Chancellor and as long as he keeps coming out with that he comes out with. Hardly a surprise some are wary of Labour because of it. That he is the Shadow Chancellor, that he is a self confessed Marxist and that he said there is a lot to be learnt from Das Kapital, its hardly surprising people are wary, wary of where this might all end if he was the Chancellor. There's nothing in here about the overthrow of Capitalism. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/11/jeremy-corbyn-close-deficit-poor-labour-economylabour.org.uk/issue/economy/Social Democracy is about working with in the Capitalist system, but regulating it. I really can't believe I am explaining this. But there you go. Explain all you like. The Right Wing nutjobs will still think everyone to the left of Ghengis Khan should be exterminated.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 1, 2018 17:17:16 GMT 1
Well he has at times spoken specifically about socialism, bringing a socialist society to the UK. No mention of social democracy along with those comments. So he has stated himself that he is a socialist and he has spoken about transforming the UK into a socialist society. And as for social democracy, that, as far as I am aware, is a capitalist system. Something McDonnell has stated he wishes to overthrow. We'll have to agree to disagree but for me, considering what he comes out with, it's perfectly acceptable for people to trot out the "socialism" line when it comes to Labour as long as McDonnell continues as Shadow Chancellor and as long as he keeps coming out with that he comes out with. Hardly a surprise some are wary of Labour because of it. That he is the Shadow Chancellor, that he is a self confessed Marxist and that he said there is a lot to be learnt from Das Kapital, its hardly surprising people are wary, wary of where this might all end if he was the Chancellor. I really can't believe I am explaining this. But there you go. I can only help you so much. One more time I guess. The current Shadow Chancellor, Labour's McDonnell, has clearly stated that he is a socialist and that he wants to introduce a socialist society to the UK. His words. You can go find them in the Guardian I'm sure. Now considering he has said he is a socialist. And that he wants to introduce a socialist society to the UK. Why on earth would anyone not look to him as anything but a socialist. Because, well, that is what he said he is. So with that said, I hardly think it a surprise that those that have concerns with socialism will take that into consideration when looking to Labour with McDonnell in is ranks. Because again, he has stated he is a socialist. As I have tried to make clear earlier, this may not be so much about Labour's current policies but more to do with what might well happen if the likes of McDonnell get into government. Perhaps they are concerned about how far he will go. And would rather not provide the opportunity. I'm a bit confused as to why this seems so hard for you to grasp. Anyone with any concern as to where this may lead is hardly going to vote for Labour. And as I stated, social democracy is not socialism and is still a capitalist system. Its still capitalism. Capitalism that McDonnell wants to overthrow. Find this baffling to be honest, not as if McDonnell hasn't been open and frank about this... Mr McDonnell said he wanted to transform society “in a way that radically changes the system”. Asked if his job was the overthrow of capitalism, he replied: “Yes it is. It’s transforming the economy.” Pressed on whether there was a difference between transforming the economy and overthrowing capitalism, he said: “I don’t think there is . . . I want a socialist society.”And with that you laugh at people who trot out the socialist line. Even though that is clearly what the current shadow chancellor is and has clearly stated he wishes to introduce. Beats me that...
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 1, 2018 17:21:45 GMT 1
Explain all you like. The Right Wing nutjobs will still think everyone to the left of Ghengis Khan should be exterminated. Best get the purges in first then comrade, get them gulags and reeducation camps open for business.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 17:28:41 GMT 1
I really can't believe I am explaining this. But there you go. I can only help you so much. One more time I guess. The current Shadow Chancellor, Labour's McDonnell, has clearly stated that he is a socialist and that he wants to introduce a socialist society to the UK. His words. You can go find them in the Guardian I'm sure. Now considering he has said he is a socialist. And that he wants to introduce a socialist society to the UK. Why on earth would anyone not look to him as anything but a socialist. Because, well, that is what he said he is. So with that said, I hardly think it a surprise that those that have concerns with socialism will take that into consideration when looking to Labour with McDonnell in is ranks. Because again, he has stated he is a socialist. As I have tried to make clear earlier, this may not be so much about Labour's current policies but more to do with what might well happen if the likes of McDonnell get into government. Perhaps they are concerned about how far he will go. And would rather not provide the opportunity. I'm a bit confused as to why this seems so hard for you to grasp. Anyone with any concern as to where this may lead is hardly going to vote for Labour. And as I stated, social democracy is not socialism and is still a capitalist system. Its still capitalism. Capitalism that McDonnell wants to overthrow. Find this baffling to be honest, not as if McDonnell hasn't been open and frank about this... Mr McDonnell said he wanted to transform society “in a way that radically changes the system”. Asked if his job was the overthrow of capitalism, he replied: “Yes it is. It’s transforming the economy.” Pressed on whether there was a difference between transforming the economy and overthrowing capitalism, he said: “I don’t think there is . . . I want a socialist society.”And with that you laugh at people who trot out socialist line. Even though that is clearly what the current shadow chancellor is and has clearly stated he wishes to introduce. Beats me that... Christ on a bike. He can talk all he likes, as Matt explained, but the manifesto says otherwise as did the Guardian link. That's what counts. Like I said, people need to read and study it. Social Democracy has it's roots in Marxism, but as most things do it evolves. What he wants and what he will get are two different things. Nuance isn't it?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 1, 2018 17:37:08 GMT 1
I can only help you so much. One more time I guess. The current Shadow Chancellor, Labour's McDonnell, has clearly stated that he is a socialist and that he wants to introduce a socialist society to the UK. His words. You can go find them in the Guardian I'm sure. Now considering he has said he is a socialist. And that he wants to introduce a socialist society to the UK. Why on earth would anyone not look to him as anything but a socialist. Because, well, that is what he said he is. So with that said, I hardly think it a surprise that those that have concerns with socialism will take that into consideration when looking to Labour with McDonnell in is ranks. Because again, he has stated he is a socialist. As I have tried to make clear earlier, this may not be so much about Labour's current policies but more to do with what might well happen if the likes of McDonnell get into government. Perhaps they are concerned about how far he will go. And would rather not provide the opportunity. I'm a bit confused as to why this seems so hard for you to grasp. Anyone with any concern as to where this may lead is hardly going to vote for Labour. And as I stated, social democracy is not socialism and is still a capitalist system. Its still capitalism. Capitalism that McDonnell wants to overthrow. Find this baffling to be honest, not as if McDonnell hasn't been open and frank about this... Mr McDonnell said he wanted to transform society “in a way that radically changes the system”. Asked if his job was the overthrow of capitalism, he replied: “Yes it is. It’s transforming the economy.” Pressed on whether there was a difference between transforming the economy and overthrowing capitalism, he said: “I don’t think there is . . . I want a socialist society.”And with that you laugh at people who trot out socialist line. Even though that is clearly what the current shadow chancellor is and has clearly stated he wishes to introduce. Beats me that... Christ on a bike. He can talk all he likes, as Matt explained, but the manifesto says otherwise as did the Guardian link. That's what counts. Like I said, people need to read and study it. Social Democracy has it's roots in Marxism, but as most things do it evolves. What he wants and what he will get are two different things. Nuance isn't it? But McDonnell is talking about socialism. He specifically said that, right? He specifically used that term? You agree? Now when people then refer to socialism (the exact same term used by the shadow chancellor, right?) you find that funny? Even though they are using the exact same term used by McDonnell. Like I say, beats me... And it isn't just about what is in the manifesto, no. People also tend to take notice of what politicians say too. Crazy eh? But he can talk all he likes? He's only the shadow chancellor. That's all. No one should take any notice of what he has to say is it. Blimey...
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 1, 2018 17:41:05 GMT 1
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 1, 2018 17:44:35 GMT 1
Yeah, but he's only the shadow chancellor of the exchequer. Nothing to see here, move along...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 17:47:23 GMT 1
Christ on a bike. He can talk all he likes, as Matt explained, but the manifesto says otherwise as did the Guardian link. That's what counts. Like I said, people need to read and study it. Social Democracy has it's roots in Marxism, but as most things do it evolves. What he wants and what he will get are two different things. Nuance isn't it? But McDonnell is talking about socialism. He specifically said that, right? He specifically used that term? You agree? Now when people then refer to socialism (the exact same term used by the shadow chancellor, right?) you find that funny? Even though they are using the exact same term used by McDonnell. Like I say, beats me... And it isn't just about what is in the manifesto, no. People also tend to take notice of what politicians say too. Crazy eh? But he can talk all he likes? He's only the shadow chancellor. That's all. No one should take any notice of what he has to say is it. Blimey... FFS, read my first post on the subject. where we discuss the Labour manifesto. That's what's was funny. People think that is socialism when a cursory read tells you it isn't. But, you know what, just to please you. Labour and McDonnell are hell bent on revolutionary socialism and the complete overthrow of a system that has served the country well. Because they really are that mad.
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 1, 2018 17:52:38 GMT 1
Yeah, but he's only the shadow chancellor of the exchequer. Nothing to see here, move along... Fair enough, I can see how his anti-capitalism stance might have some effect. Much like Frankwellshrew voted remain because of the woman at the passport desk in deepest Peru or wherever, funny how different people see things!
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 1, 2018 17:56:30 GMT 1
But McDonnell is talking about socialism. He specifically said that, right? He specifically used that term? You agree? Now when people then refer to socialism (the exact same term used by the shadow chancellor, right?) you find that funny? Even though they are using the exact same term used by McDonnell. Like I say, beats me... And it isn't just about what is in the manifesto, no. People also tend to take notice of what politicians say too. Crazy eh? But he can talk all he likes? He's only the shadow chancellor. That's all. No one should take any notice of what he has to say is it. Blimey... FFS, read my first post on the subject. where we discuss the Labour manifesto. That's what's was funny. People think that is socialism when a cursory read tells you it isn't. But, you know what, just to please you. Labour and McDonnell are hell bent on revolutionary socialism and the complete overthrow of a system that has served the country well. Because they really are that mad. Well all else fails reach for the straw man is it. Only joking... My response to that was that Labour don't help themselves with coming out with the stuff that McDonnell comes out with. And I stand by that. Hardly surprising people point to Labour and talk of socialism when Labours own shadow chancellor is doing exactly that. That is the term he himself uses. If socialism is a concern then it's blatantly obvious people are't likely to vote a socialist into number 11 (for fear of just how far he may go considering his very public stated aims). This is clear as...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 17:56:56 GMT 1
As for Brexit.
Who knows, but I personally think we won't know the affects of the deal, or clean break, for another 20/30 years.
But, I won't be around, so what to I care?
As for my lad. The biggest piece of legislation that affects his life had nothing to do with the European Union.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Dec 1, 2018 17:58:02 GMT 1
Yeah, but he's only the shadow chancellor of the exchequer. Nothing to see here, move along... Fair enough, I can see how his anti-capitalism stance might have some effect. Yeah, so can I. Apologies, I was being sarcastic.
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 1, 2018 18:12:36 GMT 1
As for Brexit. Who knows, but I personally think we won't know the affects of the deal, or clean break, for another 20/30 years. But, I won't be around, so what to I care? As for my lad. The biggest piece of legislation that affects his life had nothing to do with the European Union. Thing is, if we'd have left it as it was i.e Cameron hadn't called a referendum, then the call for it today would've been even stronger. It was always going to happen whilst the population were so unhappy. Now we have a better chance to work out the kind of country we want to be without having to worry about the EU and their effect on us. By the time you and I leave this planet Nick, I hope our country has put Brexit in the past and starts to vote into power people that you and me have faith in, to build a happy future for those we leave behind. It's hard to think what type of person that is when we have such a huge cloud of division hanging over us.
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Post by salop27 on Dec 1, 2018 18:16:50 GMT 1
As for Brexit. Who knows, but I personally think we won't know the affects of the deal, or clean break, for another 20/30 years. But, I won't be around, so what to I care? As for my lad. The biggest piece of legislation that affects his life had nothing to do with the European Union. Thing is, if we'd have left it as it was i.e Cameron hadn't called a referendum, then the call for it today would've been even stronger. It was always going to happen whilst the population were so unhappy. Now we have a better chance to work out the kind of country we want to be without having to worry about the EU and their effect on us. By the time you and I leave this planet Nick, I hope our country has put Brexit in the past and starts to vote into power people that you and me have faith in, to build a happy future for those we leave behind. It's hard to think what type of person that is when we have such a huge cloud of division hanging over us. Easy to blame all this on Dave Cam but parliament had to vote to allow the referendum and the vote was about 550 to 50 for it. So ironically Parliament voted to start this and seems likely they're going to vote to end it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2018 18:28:42 GMT 1
As for Brexit. Who knows, but I personally think we won't know the affects of the deal, or clean break, for another 20/30 years. But, I won't be around, so what to I care? As for my lad. The biggest piece of legislation that affects his life had nothing to do with the European Union. Thing is, if we'd have left it as it was i.e Cameron hadn't called a referendum, then the call for it today would've been even stronger. It was always going to happen whilst the population were so unhappy. Now we have a better chance to work out the kind of country we want to be without having to worry about the EU and their effect on us. By the time you and I leave this planet Nick, I hope our country has put Brexit in the past and starts to vote into power people that you and me have faith in, to build a happy future for those we leave behind. It's hard to think what type of person that is when we have such a huge cloud of division hanging over us. Farage tipped the balance. The rhetoric from Farage, who used his position as an MEP to gain a platform, stopped any reasoned debate and nuanced reasoning about what the real effect of the EU was on 'us'. Personally, the EU improved my working life, allowed me to travel to the continent free of hassle and allowed me a good standard of living. Others see it differently, fine, but all those who I know who voted out, would now vote in. As for the future, it's a wing and a prayer, nobody knows. And having read most of the deal, this leaves us worse off. As for a clean break, I can't see us being any better off than we are now, particularly in the short to medium term. It's a lose/lose situation. It's about the break up of the UK.
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Post by shrewsace on Dec 1, 2018 21:00:22 GMT 1
Reading some of this thread, it's like 2008 never happened...
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 1, 2018 22:29:21 GMT 1
Thing is, if we'd have left it as it was i.e Cameron hadn't called a referendum, then the call for it today would've been even stronger. It was always going to happen whilst the population were so unhappy. Now we have a better chance to work out the kind of country we want to be without having to worry about the EU and their effect on us. By the time you and I leave this planet Nick, I hope our country has put Brexit in the past and starts to vote into power people that you and me have faith in, to build a happy future for those we leave behind. It's hard to think what type of person that is when we have such a huge cloud of division hanging over us. Farage tipped the balance. The rhetoric from Farage, who used his position as an MEP to gain a platform, stopped any reasoned debate and nuanced reasoning about what the real effect of the EU was on 'us'. Personally, the EU improved my working life, allowed me to travel to the continent free of hassle and allowed me a good standard of living. Others see it differently, fine, but all those who I know who voted out, would now vote in. As for the future, it's a wing and a prayer, nobody knows. And having read most of the deal, this leaves us worse off. As for a clean break, I can't see us being any better off than we are now, particularly in the short to medium term. It's a lose/lose situation. It's about the break up of the UK. Yep, Farage certainly tipped the balance but that was only because half the country was so unhappy and he gave them a voice. Personally, all I've ever heard people do in this country for the 34 years I've been at work is moan about the state of the country and that moaning has just got stronger and stronger and stronger over the last decade. Just letting 300k extra people into the country is just ridiculous - we can't cope with that amount - thankfully Brexit has already started to slow that down. Once we get the EU numbers down we can start to slow down the numbers of Non-EU too (and governments will fall in this country if that particular government doesn't make it happen). In ten years time instead of having an extra 3 million extra people in the country, I hope the numbers are less than a million and continuing to slow. 100,000 extra people each year is still too much IMO. The future under a Remain vote would also have been unknown and uncertain. It couldn't go on as it was, half the country were unhappy with it. I don't know anyone who voted Leave last time who would now vote Remain, equally I don't know any Remainers who would vote Leave, but I do know Remainers who just want to get on with it now and get it done. Quite possibly that's apathetic and lacking resolve on their part and that could play its part if there was ever a 2nd referendum. What will those types of people be thinking when they tick the box in the Referendum - I'll stick with my vote from last time or - We're back to square one and the s**t lives and s**t country we had two years ago, with a bleak divide to look forward to. What's for sure is that in 2016 one half of the country felt that being in the EU was a good thing and the other half felt it was a bad thing. Just that slightly more felt it was a bad thing. I can put up with a bit of extra hassle if I travel to Europe. But that's their loss if they make it too much hassle. I see it being tough for a few years until it all settles down. But truly believe we are a hardy, creative and quality conscious nation of people who will weather the storm and become happier as a nation in the medium-long term. Going forward ten years, a future being out of the EU fills me with hope A future staying in the EU fills me with dread.
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Post by shrewsace on Dec 1, 2018 22:45:58 GMT 1
Farage tipped the balance. The rhetoric from Farage, who used his position as an MEP to gain a platform, stopped any reasoned debate and nuanced reasoning about what the real effect of the EU was on 'us'. Personally, the EU improved my working life, allowed me to travel to the continent free of hassle and allowed me a good standard of living. Others see it differently, fine, but all those who I know who voted out, would now vote in. As for the future, it's a wing and a prayer, nobody knows. And having read most of the deal, this leaves us worse off. As for a clean break, I can't see us being any better off than we are now, particularly in the short to medium term. It's a lose/lose situation. It's about the break up of the UK. Yep, Farage certainly tipped the balance but that was only because half the country was so unhappy and he gave them a voice. Personally, all I've ever heard people do in this country for the 34 years I've been at work is moan about the state of the country and that moaning has just got stronger and stronger and stronger over the last decade. Just letting 300k extra people into the country is just ridiculous - we can't cope with that amount - thankfully Brexit has already started to slow that down. Once we get the EU numbers down we can start to slow down the numbers of Non-EU too (and governments will fall in this country if that particular government doesn't make it happen). In ten years time instead of having an extra 3 million extra people in the country, I hope the numbers are less than a million and continuing to slow. 100,000 extra people each year is still too much IMO. The future under a Remain vote would also have been unknown and uncertain. It couldn't go on as it was, half the country were unhappy with it. I don't know anyone who voted Leave last time who would now vote Remain, equally I don't know any Remainers who would vote Leave, but I do know Remainers who just want to get on with it now and get it done. Quite possibly that's apathetic and lacking resolve on their part and that could play its part if there was ever a 2nd referendum. What will those types of people be thinking when they tick the box in the Referendum - I'll stick with my vote from last time or - We're back to square one and the s**t lives and s**t country we had two years ago, with a bleak divide to look forward to. What's for sure is that in 2016 one half of the country felt that being in the EU was a good thing and the other half felt it was a bad thing. Just that slightly more felt it was a bad thing. I can put up with a bit of extra hassle if I travel to Europe. But that's their loss if they make it too much hassle. I see it being tough for a few years until it all settles down. But truly believe we are a hardy, creative and quality conscious nation of people who will weather the storm and become happier as a nation in the medium-long term. Going forward ten years, a future being out of the EU fills me with hope A future staying in the EU fills me with dread. The soaring levels of homelessness and rough sleep over recent years suggest thousands of people have been tipped past the point of 'just about managing' by austerity. I wonder whether it is conscionable to further impoverish people for 'a few years', in pursuit of a promised post-Brexit eldorado. The relatively affluent may well be prepared to take the hit, but what about those who will no longer be able to keep their heads above water?
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 1, 2018 22:52:50 GMT 1
Yep, Farage certainly tipped the balance but that was only because half the country was so unhappy and he gave them a voice. Personally, all I've ever heard people do in this country for the 34 years I've been at work is moan about the state of the country and that moaning has just got stronger and stronger and stronger over the last decade. Just letting 300k extra people into the country is just ridiculous - we can't cope with that amount - thankfully Brexit has already started to slow that down. Once we get the EU numbers down we can start to slow down the numbers of Non-EU too (and governments will fall in this country if that particular government doesn't make it happen). In ten years time instead of having an extra 3 million extra people in the country, I hope the numbers are less than a million and continuing to slow. 100,000 extra people each year is still too much IMO. The future under a Remain vote would also have been unknown and uncertain. It couldn't go on as it was, half the country were unhappy with it. I don't know anyone who voted Leave last time who would now vote Remain, equally I don't know any Remainers who would vote Leave, but I do know Remainers who just want to get on with it now and get it done. Quite possibly that's apathetic and lacking resolve on their part and that could play its part if there was ever a 2nd referendum. What will those types of people be thinking when they tick the box in the Referendum - I'll stick with my vote from last time or - We're back to square one and the s**t lives and s**t country we had two years ago, with a bleak divide to look forward to. What's for sure is that in 2016 one half of the country felt that being in the EU was a good thing and the other half felt it was a bad thing. Just that slightly more felt it was a bad thing. I can put up with a bit of extra hassle if I travel to Europe. But that's their loss if they make it too much hassle. I see it being tough for a few years until it all settles down. But truly believe we are a hardy, creative and quality conscious nation of people who will weather the storm and become happier as a nation in the medium-long term. Going forward ten years, a future being out of the EU fills me with hope A future staying in the EU fills me with dread. The soaring levels of homelessness and rough sleep over recent years suggest thousands of people have been tipped past the point of 'just about managing' by austerity. I wonder whether it is conscionable to further impoverish people for 'a few years', in pursuit of a promised post-Brexit eldorado. The relatively affluent may well be prepared to take the hit, but what about those who will no longer be able to keep their heads above water? Let's not forget that the soaring levels of homelessness and rough sleep have occurred whilst we have been in the EU. Like I said, people have been pretty miserable in this country.
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Post by shrewsace on Dec 1, 2018 23:20:16 GMT 1
The soaring levels of homelessness and rough sleep over recent years suggest thousands of people have been tipped past the point of 'just about managing' by austerity. I wonder whether it is conscionable to further impoverish people for 'a few years', in pursuit of a promised post-Brexit eldorado. The relatively affluent may well be prepared to take the hit, but what about those who will no longer be able to keep their heads above water? Let's not forget that the soaring levels of homelessness and rough sleep have occurred whilst we have been in the EU. Like I said, people have been pretty miserable in this country. Yes, they have - although as a result of austerity rather than anything the EU has foisted upon us. And yes, people have been pretty miserable over the last 10 years - that's my point. After a decade of austerity, is it right to expect people to tolerate a few more years of misery on the promise of jam tomorrow? I'm sure Rees-Mogg can afford to take the hit, others might find themselves out on the streets while we explore our 'global opportunities'.
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 2, 2018 0:10:17 GMT 1
Let's not forget that the soaring levels of homelessness and rough sleep have occurred whilst we have been in the EU. Like I said, people have been pretty miserable in this country. Yes, they have - although as a result of austerity rather than anything the EU has foisted upon us. And yes, people have been pretty miserable over the last 10 years - that's my point. After a decade of austerity, is it right to expect people to tolerate a few more years of misery on the promise of jam tomorrow? I'm sure Rees-Mogg can afford to take the hit, others might find themselves out on the streets while we explore our 'global opportunities'. It's a numbers thing. If 300,000 extra people arrive in your country every year and there isn't enough housing or jobs to pay for rent/mortgage then what you get is a lot of those extra people sleeping on the streets. The lucky ones amongst those who do find a home, take up the home that could have been given to somebody sleeping rough who was already in the country. It's no wonder the numbers have crept up! www.thetimes.co.uk/article/migrants-drive-50-rise-in-rough-sleeping-ftxchhjqlWhat the UK needed was additional funds from the EU to help cope with that mass migration. The EU have managed to find a paltry £544m for the countries coping with the influx of refugees from Africa. They have been arriving at 2000 a day according to the article below, an extra 730,000 people arriving in the European countries immediately affected. www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/02/refugee-crisis-europe-eu-countries-greece-receive-700m-extra-aid-funds£544m is peanuts for what those countries need. And in a similar respect, with the extra 300k numbers of people arriving in the UK, we should also have received additional funds. Refugees or not, if people leave one patch of land in your territory to go to another then you need to help that patch out a bit because those people are going to need houses, jobs etc. If we can decrease the numbers of people coming into this country, then we can decrease the amount of homeless and with that the misery those humans are going through when they hit the shores of this country. Through Brexit we have a chance to do that, through remaining we have no chance.
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Post by stfcfan87 on Dec 2, 2018 0:45:05 GMT 1
Rather than refugees coming here the bigger problem is the people living so much longer and the very old using up so many resources in health and social care. The population in this country is such that there must be nearly as many people of working age as 65+, so there's not enough money being raised to pay for it all. The youngest groups are the ones who suffer the most - little prospect of getting on the housing market, but got to pay for the generation who are
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Post by champagneprince on Dec 2, 2018 0:53:10 GMT 1
Rather than refugees coming here the bigger problem is the people living so much longer and the very old using up so many resources in health and social care. The population in this country is such that there must be nearly as many people of working age as 65+, so there's not enough money being raised to pay for it all. The youngest groups are the ones who suffer the most - little prospect of getting on the housing market, but got to pay for the generation who are It's not a problem that people live longer - it's what we all want. We are not in control of those numbers (unless we start bumping them off).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2018 10:44:00 GMT 1
Farage tipped the balance. The rhetoric from Farage, who used his position as an MEP to gain a platform, stopped any reasoned debate and nuanced reasoning about what the real effect of the EU was on 'us'. Personally, the EU improved my working life, allowed me to travel to the continent free of hassle and allowed me a good standard of living. Others see it differently, fine, but all those who I know who voted out, would now vote in. As for the future, it's a wing and a prayer, nobody knows. And having read most of the deal, this leaves us worse off. As for a clean break, I can't see us being any better off than we are now, particularly in the short to medium term. It's a lose/lose situation. It's about the break up of the UK. Yep, Farage certainly tipped the balance but that was only because half the country was so unhappy and he gave them a voice. Personally, all I've ever heard people do in this country for the 34 years I've been at work is moan about the state of the country and that moaning has just got stronger and stronger and stronger over the last decade. Just letting 300k extra people into the country is just ridiculous - we can't cope with that amount - thankfully Brexit has already started to slow that down. Once we get the EU numbers down we can start to slow down the numbers of Non-EU too (and governments will fall in this country if that particular government doesn't make it happen). In ten years time instead of having an extra 3 million extra people in the country, I hope the numbers are less than a million and continuing to slow. 100,000 extra people each year is still too much IMO. The future under a Remain vote would also have been unknown and uncertain. It couldn't go on as it was, half the country were unhappy with it. I don't know anyone who voted Leave last time who would now vote Remain, equally I don't know any Remainers who would vote Leave, but I do know Remainers who just want to get on with it now and get it done. Quite possibly that's apathetic and lacking resolve on their part and that could play its part if there was ever a 2nd referendum. What will those types of people be thinking when they tick the box in the Referendum - I'll stick with my vote from last time or - We're back to square one and the s**t lives and s**t country we had two years ago, with a bleak divide to look forward to. What's for sure is that in 2016 one half of the country felt that being in the EU was a good thing and the other half felt it was a bad thing. Just that slightly more felt it was a bad thing. I can put up with a bit of extra hassle if I travel to Europe. But that's their loss if they make it too much hassle. I see it being tough for a few years until it all settles down. But truly believe we are a hardy, creative and quality conscious nation of people who will weather the storm and become happier as a nation in the medium-long term. Going forward ten years, a future being out of the EU fills me with hope A future staying in the EU fills me with dread. Ok, well you deal with dreams and I will deal with reality. The UK birth rate is down. www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/livebirths/bulletins/birthsummarytablesenglandandwales/2017Note the increase in birth from those outside the UK. There are skills shortages in many sectors. Young people don't seem to be interested in the 'dirty jobs'. While we aspire for our children to improve themselves beyond what we do, there is nobody to clean your car at Tesco. You can work out the effect on the economy if there aren't enough people to fill roles in say, manufacture and engineering. We will now have to compete with economic power houses such as USA, China and India alone. While not forgetting the emerging economies of Brazil, Turkey and Mexico. Meanwhile though there's this to consider. www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/Issues/2018/03/20/world-economic-outlook-april-2018According to this, growth rates aren't going to last. We are leaving the EU at the worst possible time, at a time when growth is slowing. It's all very well having a hardy, creative and quality focused population (and who hasn't) but it's no good if we can't sell our goods, services and anything else we may have to shill for if we have high tariffs, and a slowing economy. History has proven that been in the EU has softened the blow of recession and now we will be outside that. It may well damage the country for a generation or two. But, like I said I won't around, so I won't feel the effects. As for lives and country, speak for yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2018 10:51:06 GMT 1
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