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Post by tvor on Jan 17, 2019 12:57:26 GMT 1
So let me get this right, it's okay for leave supporters to dismiss concerns held by remainders as "project fear" whilst making statements about there being "civil war" in the event that there is a second referendum.
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Post by venceremos on Jan 17, 2019 13:11:53 GMT 1
So let me get this right, it's okay for leave supporters to dismiss concerns held by remainders as "project fear" whilst making statements about there being "civil war" in the event that there is a second referendum. That's it. Concerns raised by the regular analyses of economists and the like are just fear-mongering. Threats of riots or civil war and statements like "every leave voter knew exactly what they voted for and they all voted for exactly the same things" are based on expert analysis.
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Post by keithb123 on Jan 17, 2019 15:08:19 GMT 1
The EU has not been a complete **** up. Leaving the EU has been a complete **** up! In your opinion, it's actually been the process that has been a complete **** up
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Post by kuffdam72 on Jan 17, 2019 15:13:32 GMT 1
time for a modern day Guy Fawkes, simple solution!
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Post by percy on Jan 17, 2019 15:50:22 GMT 1
Corbyn is a liability - insisting that we take no deal off the table is stupid when we are trying to negotiate.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 15:54:52 GMT 1
The EU has not been a complete **** up. Leaving the EU has been a complete **** up! In your opinion, it's actually been the process that has been a complete **** up
Oh come now Kieth. Dress it up however you like, but that’s exactly the same as I’m saying. Go on say it, you agree with me don’t you
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Post by venceremos on Jan 17, 2019 16:27:24 GMT 1
Corbyn is a liability - insisting that we take no deal off the table is stupid when we are trying to negotiate. There are several government ministers effectively saying the same thing. We're now a long, long way from "no deal is better than a bad deal". The EU knows it. I don't believe it will have any bearing on any future negotiations.
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Post by venceremos on Jan 17, 2019 16:29:12 GMT 1
time for a modern day Guy Fawkes, simple solution! What, so that Rees Mogg and the rest can fail with their plotting, be caught, tortured and executed? Bit extreme but I applaud a milder form of that sentiment.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 17, 2019 17:33:20 GMT 1
Corbyn is a liability - insisting that we take no deal off the table is stupid when we are trying to negotiate. Corbyn is stupid - insisting that we take no deal off the table is a liability when we are trying to negotiate.That's better, closer the truth...
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Post by shrewder on Jan 17, 2019 17:38:18 GMT 1
Total shambles. All sides doing there best to screw the whole thing up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 17:44:14 GMT 1
The only 'civil war' has been going on in the Tory Party since 1974 about whether the UK stays in or gets out.
Remember Cameron did this appease people like Johnson et al. While running scared of Farage.
And here we are.
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Post by salop27 on Jan 17, 2019 17:53:29 GMT 1
Over the last couple of years my position has gone from reluctant leave voter to very convinced leave voter. It's lovely to see all parties communicating tonight but let's remember the red lines. No freedom of movement, no single market or customs union, control of laws and no sending vast sums of money. I'll accept an extension of article 50 to renegotiate. Any mention of another referendum is a one way street to a civil war so no way to that. Finally, if there is to be no deal we leave still. You sound nothing like someone who was ever a "reluctant" leave voter. ANyway, since you're sticking to those red lines, what's the point of all parties communicating or article 50 being extended when your view is essentially that of a no dealer - ie there's nothing to negotiate! Prepare to be disappointed, that's not going to happen. Two and a half years of being insulted and labelled thick or racist can stiffen a man's resolve. May's not going to alter her red lines to much as they're the same as the DUPs,they're the ones she's needs onside. She gets them and that will probably bring over the tory brexiteers. Practically deal done. Anyone thinking this coming together of MPs will change much is mistaken.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 18:05:01 GMT 1
Another thing worth pointing out is that other party leaders and MPs from May's own party are telling her to remove 'no deal'. Yet Corbyn is getting all the abuse. He's not the leader of an united front or anything radical like that.
This tell you all you need to know about the medias/people's own prejudice and bias. Gove's attack on Corbyn yesterday tells you all you need to know about the level of debate in the House.
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Post by venceremos on Jan 17, 2019 18:07:01 GMT 1
You sound nothing like someone who was ever a "reluctant" leave voter. ANyway, since you're sticking to those red lines, what's the point of all parties communicating or article 50 being extended when your view is essentially that of a no dealer - ie there's nothing to negotiate! Prepare to be disappointed, that's not going to happen. Two and a half years of being insulted and labelled thick or racist can stiffen a man's resolve. May's not going to alter her red lines to much as they're the same as the DUPs,they're the ones she's needs onside. She gets them and that will probably bring over the tory brexiteers. Practically deal done.Anyone thinking this coming together of MPs will change much is mistaken. Erm, did you not notice what just happened on Tuesday? May and her red lines were rejected by the DUP, Tory brexiteers, remainers, 2nd referendumers and every other party. Never mind "brexit means brexit", if nothing much changes, nothing much changes. We're in a hole, although you don't seem to have noticed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 18:14:03 GMT 1
Corbyn is a liability - insisting that we take no deal off the table is stupid when we are trying to negotiate. May not budging either according to Caroline Lucas, so, you know, it works both ways.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 17, 2019 18:36:23 GMT 1
Talk of civil walk does seem rather silly, I think that's way over the top. I'm sure if Article 50 is rescinded and Brexit doesn't come about then there will be some demonstrations but I don't think to the the extent that some might think... What will be interesting though is whether that would bring about some shift in the political landscape. If Parliament doesn't go through with what it said it would do and implement the referendum result than I think it's fair to assume that there will be an awful lot of trust lost with the current setup. I think there would be huge numbers who might well be prepared to look elsewhere for their representation and if there is anyone out there who can harness that dissatisfaction then they have a potential base of 17 million people to draw on...not too shabby that. For all the talk of the impact Brexit will have on the country I do think that if there is a second referendum and we end up staying, there will be some pretty big ramifications from that too... Fingers crossed they can come to some agreement that can at least placate both sides of the divide...
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 17, 2019 18:43:09 GMT 1
Another thing worth pointing out is that other party leaders and MPs from May's own party are telling her to remove 'no deal'. Yet Corbyn is getting all the abuse. Isn't that because he is the only one who is demanding it before even looking to meet and discuss how to move things forward? Hasn't he stipulated that that demand must be met first before he will engage? Pretty sure that is why he is getting the abuse. Others across all parties want that but as far as I am aware he is the only one who's took his ball home because it's not been forthcoming as yet... And May is right to not to give in to that demand. Seems May has now looked to explained this to the golden boy in a letter, hopefully he'll take a while to read it and reconsider...
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Post by percy on Jan 17, 2019 18:50:39 GMT 1
Corbyn is a liability - insisting that we take no deal off the table is stupid when we are trying to negotiate. May not budging either according to Caroline Lucas, so, you know, it works both ways. Agree completely & how on earth can she suddenly say that she wants to speak to people with two months to go after 2 and a half years of ignoring them. Delaying Article 50 is in the hands of the EU and why would they allow it when they want us to either remain and show others it is impossible to leave, or be a disaster and show others how really painful it is to leave. We are not going to get a new deal sorted now so it is a straight choice between a hard exit (which, despite the naysayers is going to be REALLY BAD) or withdrawing Article 50 and remaining.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 17, 2019 18:57:45 GMT 1
May not budging either according to Caroline Lucas, so, you know, it works both ways. Agree completely & how on earth can she suddenly say that she wants to speak to people with two months to go after 2 and a half years of ignoring them. Delaying Article 50 is in the hands of the EU and why would they allow it when they want us to either remain and show others it is impossible to leave, or be a disaster and show others how really painful it is to leave. We are not going to get a new deal sorted now so it is a straight choice between a hard exit (which, despite the naysayers is going to be REALLY BAD) or withdrawing Article 50 and remaining. If the situation weren't so pressing then I don't think anyone would be surprised if others within the house told her to sod off. As for Article 50, I think the EU would be more than happy to extend it. Leaving the silly talk of who needs who more, fact is that a no deal situation come March 29th is not wanted on either side, neither the UK or the EU want that. And if nothing changes we will leave without a deal on March 29th. So I think they would be more than happy to allow a delay... Just to add, if it is agreed to have a second referendum for example, there is no way that could be done before the end of March. I think a delay of Article 50 is the less of our worries...
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Post by venceremos on Jan 17, 2019 19:06:44 GMT 1
Agree completely & how on earth can she suddenly say that she wants to speak to people with two months to go after 2 and a half years of ignoring them. Delaying Article 50 is in the hands of the EU and why would they allow it when they want us to either remain and show others it is impossible to leave, or be a disaster and show others how really painful it is to leave. We are not going to get a new deal sorted now so it is a straight choice between a hard exit (which, despite the naysayers is going to be REALLY BAD) or withdrawing Article 50 and remaining. If the situation weren't so pressing then I don't think anyone would be surprised if others within the house told her to sod off. As for Article 50, I think the EU would be more than happy to extend it. Leaving the silly talk of who needs who more, fact is that a no deal situation come March 29th is not wanted on either side, neither the UK or the EU want that. And if nothing changes we will leave without a deal on March 29th. So I think they would be more than happy to allow a delay... Bloody hell, I agree with you. You must have changed …..
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 19:21:06 GMT 1
Another thing worth pointing out is that other party leaders and MPs from May's own party are telling her to remove 'no deal'. Yet Corbyn is getting all the abuse. Isn't that because he is the only one who is demanding it before even looking to meet and discuss how to move things forward? Hasn't he stipulated that that demand must be met first before he will engage? Pretty sure that is why he is getting the abuse. Others across all parties want that but as far as I am aware he is the only one who's took his ball home because it's not been forthcoming as yet... And May is right to not to give in to that demand. Seems May has now looked to explained this to the golden boy in a letter, hopefully he'll take a while to read it and reconsider... Why would anyone waste time in meeting someone when they know the answer to the first question. Everyone, including Lucas, knew this before going to their meetings. As Lucas has said, May isn't budging from her red-lines and is boxed in. Corbyn knows this. The point is simple, no one is budging from their position. But, only one person is 'stupid'. Personally, I see more than one stupid person in this process, but there you go.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 19:25:47 GMT 1
May not budging either according to Caroline Lucas, so, you know, it works both ways. Agree completely & how on earth can she suddenly say that she wants to speak to people with two months to go after 2 and a half years of ignoring them. Delaying Article 50 is in the hands of the EU and why would they allow it when they want us to either remain and show others it is impossible to leave, or be a disaster and show others how really painful it is to leave. We are not going to get a new deal sorted now so it is a straight choice between a hard exit (which, despite the naysayers is going to be REALLY BAD) or withdrawing Article 50 and remaining. Yes, we've had 2 years and here we are, utterly, utterly stupid, self-defeating and certainly not in the interests of the country from the Government. It's going to be interesting what happens to Article 50 now. Extension I hope.
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 17, 2019 19:43:32 GMT 1
Isn't that because he is the only one who is demanding it before even looking to meet and discuss how to move things forward? Hasn't he stipulated that that demand must be met first before he will engage? Pretty sure that is why he is getting the abuse. Others across all parties want that but as far as I am aware he is the only one who's took his ball home because it's not been forthcoming as yet... And May is right to not to give in to that demand. Seems May has now looked to explained this to the golden boy in a letter, hopefully he'll take a while to read it and reconsider... Why would anyone waste time in meeting someone when they know the answer to the first question. So are we to assume that that is the only thing Corbyn has to offer? A demand for 'no deal' to be taken off the table? Surely that can't be the case? I would assume that if May had met that demand he would have more to offer. So why is it beyond him to discuss those points with May without first having that demand met? A demand that May clearly thinks can not be met. And I understand her point. If things continue as is then come March 29th we do drop out of the EU without a deal. We drop out without a deal as that is the default position. I do not blame May for not meeting that demand as I don' think she can. Brexit is already underway. Article 50 was triggered March last year and as it stands we are due to leave on the 29th March...that will not change unless something happens to avert that, as in Parliament comes to some agreement. I don't think that is a given. And if not, come the deadline, the default position is we leave without a deal. I don't think she in a position to state that can not happen. Just because he gets a no for his first demand he's spat the dummy and doesn't want anything more to do with it. That's why people are criticizing him... Just to add, I don't think May wants a no deal either. I think she will do everything she can to avoid that. But I don't think she can guarantee that it can not and will not happen, no matter how much she wants to avoid it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 19:47:00 GMT 1
You sound nothing like someone who was ever a "reluctant" leave voter. ANyway, since you're sticking to those red lines, what's the point of all parties communicating or article 50 being extended when your view is essentially that of a no dealer - ie there's nothing to negotiate! Prepare to be disappointed, that's not going to happen. Two and a half years of being insulted and labelled thick or racist can stiffen a man's resolve. May's not going to alter her red lines to much as they're the same as the DUPs,they're the ones she's needs onside. She gets them and that will probably bring over the tory brexiteers. Practically deal done. Anyone thinking this coming together of MPs will change much is mistaken. Oh so the DUP won the last election?
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Post by salop27 on Jan 17, 2019 20:27:28 GMT 1
The sticking point of the deal was the Irish back stop which would affect NI. DUP and Sinn Fein are the NI mps so it's right they have an input and since Sinn Fein don't attend Westminster that leaves the DUP. That seems logical? The Irish backstop has always been the problem in passing the deal, which is the best form of brexit possible. Expect changes in that area.
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Post by simianbenzoate on Jan 17, 2019 21:09:02 GMT 1
You sound nothing like someone who was ever a "reluctant" leave voter. ANyway, since you're sticking to those red lines, what's the point of all parties communicating or article 50 being extended when your view is essentially that of a no dealer - ie there's nothing to negotiate! Prepare to be disappointed, that's not going to happen. Two and a half years of being insulted and labelled thick or racist can stiffen a man's resolve. May's not going to alter her red lines to much as they're the same as the DUPs,they're the ones she's needs onside. She gets them and that will probably bring over the tory brexiteers. Practically deal done. Anyone thinking this coming together of MPs will change much is mistaken. if she doesn't alter her red lines, she won't get any different deal. The DUP to a man rejected her deal. "practically deal done" is about as far from reality as it's possible to be.
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Post by simianbenzoate on Jan 17, 2019 21:15:54 GMT 1
Please stop threatening us all with your "uprisings", we will not make decisions on the future of this country for the sake of appeasement. any MPs bowing to this rhetoric (Grayling) should be ousted immediately The poster is correct in what he states. I fully believe there will be civil war on our streets if there is no end to freedom of movement, leaving the single market, leaving the customs union and stopping our commitment to paying billions to the EU.
The EU has been a complete **** up.
No, you believe he is correct in his beliefs. Big difference. Again, we are not going to lie down and take your sh*tty brexit because we're being threatened with violence on the streets.
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Post by salop27 on Jan 17, 2019 21:20:54 GMT 1
Two and a half years of being insulted and labelled thick or racist can stiffen a man's resolve. May's not going to alter her red lines to much as they're the same as the DUPs,they're the ones she's needs onside. She gets them and that will probably bring over the tory brexiteers. Practically deal done. Anyone thinking this coming together of MPs will change much is mistaken. if she doesn't alter her red lines, she won't get any different deal. The DUP to a man rejected her deal. "practically deal done" is about as far from reality as it's possible to be. I agree. But the Irish backstop isn't her red line,its the EU's. If our mps can agree a deal in parliament,with a different Irish border scenerio, we can at least say to the EU this is what we have agreed and pass it back to them.
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Post by venceremos on Jan 17, 2019 21:34:46 GMT 1
Talk of civil walk does seem rather silly, I think that's way over the top. It sounds like a very pleasant outcome. I could join brexiteers in a civil walk.
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Post by shrewsace on Jan 17, 2019 21:46:23 GMT 1
Talk of civil walk does seem rather silly, I think that's way over the top. It sounds like a very pleasant outcome. I could join brexiteers in a civil walk. You will need to get permission from the Ministry of Civil Walks. I blame EU bureaucracy.
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