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Post by staffordshrew on Jan 11, 2019 15:39:21 GMT 1
If Labour continue the same message as now, that all options are on the table. How will you vote? Would you then be OK to continue with Labour? And you can tell me to bugger off and that its none of my business by the way, no issue with that... Labour - and this country - is crying out for a charismatic, pro-European, internationalist leader! Tony Blair hears you, er, but maybe not that charismatic, pro-European, internationalist leader. Step forward, anybody's guess, they might not even be old enough to vote yet.
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Post by neilsalop on Jan 11, 2019 15:43:45 GMT 1
If Labour continue the same message as now, that all options are on the table. How will you vote? Would you then be OK to continue with Labour? And you can tell me to bugger off and that its none of my business by the way, no issue with that... By the time of the election, I wouldn't expect all options still to be on the table. I'll be surprised if there's a general election soon. But, if asked today, my response would be that, if Labour insists on "respecting the result", it's lost my vote. I'd weigh up between the Lib Dems and Green - assuming I had that choice in my constituency. If Labour supports going back to the people, I might still vote Labour, although I couldn't really call myself a Corbyn supporter. I think a change is needed. While things fudge and muddle along in between those two, I really don't know how I'd vote - and I know a lot of Labour voters who feel the same. Labour - and this country - is crying out for a charismatic, pro-European, internationalist leader! Be careful what you wish for, the last time that happened we got Blair.
I fully understand that Corbyn does not look like a statesman and that was my main worry when he was put forward initially, would he be electable as PM over someone slick like Cameron. Unfortunately there are many people that still read the tabloids or rely on the BBC or Sky for their news and will never see a decent portrayal of him, especially over Brexit, many of those are Labour voters. I don't think many of those voters would change their vote and vote Tory, but some (like me in 2015 when faced with Labour going down the austrity-lite road) will vote Green, some will vote Lib-Dem, but the biggest part of them won't vote at all and Labour can't afford a low turnout at an election. They might have enthused a decent amount of millennials, but they have possibly turned off an equally large group of of Gen X and baby boomers. Add Brexit into the mix with a general election and this year could feasibly end one of the big two parties for generation.
Like I said, be careful what you wish for.
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Post by venceremos on Jan 12, 2019 1:16:14 GMT 1
By the time of the election, I wouldn't expect all options still to be on the table. I'll be surprised if there's a general election soon. But, if asked today, my response would be that, if Labour insists on "respecting the result", it's lost my vote. I'd weigh up between the Lib Dems and Green - assuming I had that choice in my constituency. If Labour supports going back to the people, I might still vote Labour, although I couldn't really call myself a Corbyn supporter. I think a change is needed. While things fudge and muddle along in between those two, I really don't know how I'd vote - and I know a lot of Labour voters who feel the same. Labour - and this country - is crying out for a charismatic, pro-European, internationalist leader! Be careful what you wish for, the last time that happened we got Blair.
I fully understand that Corbyn does not look like a statesman and that was my main worry when he was put forward initially, would he be electable as PM over someone slick like Cameron. Unfortunately there are many people that still read the tabloids or rely on the BBC or Sky for their news and will never see a decent portrayal of him, especially over Brexit, many of those are Labour voters. I don't think many of those voters would change their vote and vote Tory, but some (like me in 2015 when faced with Labour going down the austrity-lite road) will vote Green, some will vote Lib-Dem, but the biggest part of them won't vote at all and Labour can't afford a low turnout at an election. They might have enthused a decent amount of millennials, but they have possibly turned off an equally large group of of Gen X and baby boomers. Add Brexit into the mix with a general election and this year could feasibly end one of the big two parties for generation.
Like I said, be careful what you wish for.
I do think Corbyn’s a decent, principled fella, certainly much more so than your average politician. And he revitalised a demoralised Labour after the 2015 loss, attracting young supporters and generating real enthusiasm. And he gets rubbished unfairly by the dickhead elements of the press and its dimwitted followers. And I’ve loved the way he’s made fools of those who mocked his candidacy, then his leadership and, best of all, his electoral prospects in 2017. That’s been sweet indeed. Yet I still can’t call myself a Corbynite. I guess I’m too much of a centrist dad, as my sons would say. My view of him on brexit doesn’t come from how the media portrays him though, it’s his too-careful steering between the two sides. My (remain) side of the debate wanted more but there we are. As I say, I’d like a change now but don’t expect one for a while yet. Predictions of one party or other being lost for a generation are to be taken with a heap of salt. You could whizz back to 2015 on here, just after Miliband’s defeat or just after Corbyn’s election, and you’ll find confident predictions that Labour have become irrelevant, condemned to obscurity, and Cameron can now do as he pleases. How did that one turn out?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2019 12:41:32 GMT 1
Be careful what you wish for, the last time that happened we got Blair.
I fully understand that Corbyn does not look like a statesman and that was my main worry when he was put forward initially, would he be electable as PM over someone slick like Cameron. Unfortunately there are many people that still read the tabloids or rely on the BBC or Sky for their news and will never see a decent portrayal of him, especially over Brexit, many of those are Labour voters. I don't think many of those voters would change their vote and vote Tory, but some (like me in 2015 when faced with Labour going down the austrity-lite road) will vote Green, some will vote Lib-Dem, but the biggest part of them won't vote at all and Labour can't afford a low turnout at an election. They might have enthused a decent amount of millennials, but they have possibly turned off an equally large group of of Gen X and baby boomers. Add Brexit into the mix with a general election and this year could feasibly end one of the big two parties for generation.
Like I said, be careful what you wish for.
I do think Corbyn’s a decent, principled fella, certainly much more so than your average politician. And he revitalised a demoralised Labour after the 2015 loss, attracting young supporters and generating real enthusiasm. And he gets rubbished unfairly by the dickhead elements of the press and its dimwitted followers. And I’ve loved the way he’s made fools of those who mocked his candidacy, then his leadership and, best of all, his electoral prospects in 2017. That’s been sweet indeed. Yet I still can’t call myself a Corbynite. I guess I’m too much of a centrist dad, as my sons would say. My view of him on brexit doesn’t come from how the media portrays him though, it’s his too-careful steering between the two sides. My (remain) side of the debate wanted more but there we are. As I say, I’d like a change now but don’t expect one for a while yet. Predictions of one party or other being lost for a generation are to be taken with a heap of salt. You could whizz back to 2015 on here, just after Miliband’s defeat or just after Corbyn’s election, and you’ll find confident predictions that Labour have become irrelevant, condemned to obscurity, and Cameron can now do as he pleases. How did that one turn out? I would go along with most of this. He's believes in his principles to the point of a lack of pragmatism, an important attribute in politics. He has revitalised the Labour Party, but I would argue only at grass roots level. But, his main problem is his own Euroscepticism and trying to square that with the grass root activists who wish to remain. And those of course in the PLP who wish to remain. The point I'm making is that Corbyn could be out on his back-side in a year if the 'remain' faction wish him to be.
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Post by Valerioch on Jan 12, 2019 13:29:52 GMT 1
Be careful what you wish for, the last time that happened we got Blair.
I fully understand that Corbyn does not look like a statesman and that was my main worry when he was put forward initially, would he be electable as PM over someone slick like Cameron. Unfortunately there are many people that still read the tabloids or rely on the BBC or Sky for their news and will never see a decent portrayal of him, especially over Brexit, many of those are Labour voters. I don't think many of those voters would change their vote and vote Tory, but some (like me in 2015 when faced with Labour going down the austrity-lite road) will vote Green, some will vote Lib-Dem, but the biggest part of them won't vote at all and Labour can't afford a low turnout at an election. They might have enthused a decent amount of millennials, but they have possibly turned off an equally large group of of Gen X and baby boomers. Add Brexit into the mix with a general election and this year could feasibly end one of the big two parties for generation.
Like I said, be careful what you wish for.
I do think Corbyn’s a decent, principled fella, certainly much more so than your average politician. And he revitalised a demoralised Labour after the 2015 loss, attracting young supporters and generating real enthusiasm. And he gets rubbished unfairly by the dickhead elements of the press and its dimwitted followers. And I’ve loved the way he’s made fools of those who mocked his candidacy, then his leadership and, best of all, his electoral prospects in 2017. That’s been sweet indeed. Yet I still can’t call myself a Corbynite. I guess I’m too much of a centrist dad, as my sons would say. My view of him on brexit doesn’t come from how the media portrays him though, it’s his too-careful steering between the two sides. My (remain) side of the debate wanted more but there we are. As I say, I’d like a change now but don’t expect one for a while yet. Predictions of one party or other being lost for a generation are to be taken with a heap of salt. You could whizz back to 2015 on here, just after Miliband’s defeat or just after Corbyn’s election, and you’ll find confident predictions that Labour have become irrelevant, condemned to obscurity, and Cameron can now do as he pleases. How did that one turn out? Yes such a great candidate and leader, he got about 60 less seats than Maybot and LOST the election. Yes he did still lose, despite the spins from leftist “dimwits”, to use yet another insult from you against people purely cos they don’t share your views
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Post by salopross on Jan 13, 2019 16:25:02 GMT 1
Also, in addition to my last response, to say ‘when did the Tories care about poor people or the working class’ and to say we see people as ‘commodities and nothing more’ is unjust and despicable. Myself, my parents and grandparents are all working class and proud, thank you. Of course you care. That's why your party implements policies that have inflicted 'great misery' on the people with 'punitive, mean-spirited, and often callous' austerity measures. ( see UN report). But im sure if that's to frilly and left wing and partisan for you. You've also: -pushed more into homelessness -decreased per pupil funding -increased hospital waiting times -pushed councils into bankruptcy -increased arms sales to regimes that commit human rights violations -cut police budgets -cut police numbers -carried out a top down reorganisation of the NHS in 2012 after you promised you wouldn't. This incidentally is being totally ripped up again in the new review at the cost of billions. All this and more in the pursuit of arbitrary deficit reduction measures that your current Chancellor has abandoned all pretence of achieving beyond the next decade. So good for you mate. You keep it up. You keep on caring. Proud. Our party ‘implements policies that have inflicted 'great misery' on the people with 'punitive, mean-spirited, and often callous' austerity measures’ such as: - The largest funding increase for the NHS in its history - Taken 4 million people out of paying income tax altogether - Hundreds more outstanding schools and academies - An increased tax allowance to allow people to keep more of their money So yes, I will keep on caring and very proud, too, thank you at the measures we’ve taken. Have a great Sunday 😊
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Post by neilsalop on Jan 14, 2019 10:19:10 GMT 1
Of course you care. That's why your party implements policies that have inflicted 'great misery' on the people with 'punitive, mean-spirited, and often callous' austerity measures. ( see UN report). But im sure if that's to frilly and left wing and partisan for you. You've also: -pushed more into homelessness -decreased per pupil funding -increased hospital waiting times -pushed councils into bankruptcy -increased arms sales to regimes that commit human rights violations -cut police budgets -cut police numbers -carried out a top down reorganisation of the NHS in 2012 after you promised you wouldn't. This incidentally is being totally ripped up again in the new review at the cost of billions. All this and more in the pursuit of arbitrary deficit reduction measures that your current Chancellor has abandoned all pretence of achieving beyond the next decade. So good for you mate. You keep it up. You keep on caring. Proud. Our party ‘implements policies that have inflicted 'great misery' on the people with 'punitive, mean-spirited, and often callous' austerity measures’ such as: - The largest funding increase for the NHS in its history - Taken 4 million people out of paying income tax altogether - Hundreds more outstanding schools and academies - An increased tax allowance to allow people to keep more of their money So yes, I will keep on caring and very proud, too, thank you at the measures we’ve taken. Have a great Sunday 😊 OK Ross, I'll bite.
The funding increase you state will still as a percentage v GDP be well below what it was when your party came to power. There are also around 30,000 vacancies in the NHS and nursing shortfall is projected (by the Nursing Times) to hit 350,00 by 2030. Brexit is having an effect already, the bursury being abolished has had a huge impact and now the government is saying that only those with over £50,000 earning potential will be allowed to come into the country to work. I look forward to nurses being paid over £50k a year, but I don't somehow think that is actually part of your plan.
Funding for schools is at a lower level (after inflation) than 2015, evidently the Lib-Dems kept your party in check on someting at least for 5 years. If the funding per pupil drops in state schools and is increased in (allegedly) non-profit acadamies then the difference in the outcomes is bound to be exacerbated in years to come.
My tax allowance may have gone up, but so has my council tax, my car tax, fuel taxes, food prices, my mortgage, my insurances, my gas bill, my water rates and pretty much every other bill that comes through my letterbox (or to my in-box). Funnily enough I don't actually feel any better off.
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Post by percy on Jan 15, 2019 21:30:37 GMT 1
Well done - the first time our MP has done something right (albeit for the wrong reasons). Stocking rejection of May’s deal - if only Corbyn would back a second referendum.
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Post by staffordshrew on Jan 15, 2019 22:09:35 GMT 1
Up to the EU now. Remainer May thought the deal she negotiated was the best she could do, but the vast majority of our elected representatives have voted that the current " deal" just isn't good enough.
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Post by zenfootball2 on Jan 16, 2019 11:04:30 GMT 1
Well done - the first time our MP has done something right (albeit for the wrong reasons). Stocking rejection of May’s deal - if only Corbyn would back a second referendum. i would imagine that any people who voted to leave may be unhappy with our MP
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Post by LetchworthShrew on Jan 16, 2019 20:18:45 GMT 1
Confidence vote result
May wins by 325 to 306.
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Post by simianbenzoate on Jan 16, 2019 21:22:58 GMT 1
Confidence vote result May wins by 325 to 306. Never in doubt. Conservative mantra of "me first" kicks in by default, buying another 10 votes to seal the deal never hurts either.
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Post by percy on Jan 16, 2019 21:55:14 GMT 1
This whole episode is showing the politicians in a really bad (possibly true) light. They are not doing what they think best for the country - or even what is in line with their party or their own beliefs - only that which will further their careers.
As for this mantra of "we are delivering what was asked for at any cost" it is just mental. If you sent out by the wife to buy a car, dutifully go around all the showrooms, only find that they are all broken or costing £1m; what would you do ? You certainly wouldn't buy a duff one or go into debt for an overpriced one - you would go back to the wife and tell her the score so that she can give you new orders. Peoples' vote time.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 22:02:44 GMT 1
This whole episode is showing the politicians in a really bad (possibly true) light. They are not doing what they think best for the country - or even what is in line with their party or their own beliefs - only that which will further their careers. As for this mantra of "we are delivering what was asked for at any cost" it is just mental. If you sent out by the wife to buy a car, dutifully go around all the showrooms, only find that they are all broken or costing £1m; what would you do ? You certainly wouldn't buy a duff one or go into debt for an overpriced one - you would go back to the wife and tell her the score so that she can give you new orders. Peoples' vote time. Your home life is very very different to mine
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Post by lenny on Jan 16, 2019 22:07:19 GMT 1
This whole episode is showing the politicians in a really bad (possibly true) light. They are not doing what they think best for the country - or even what is in line with their party or their own beliefs - only that which will further their careers. As for this mantra of "we are delivering what was asked for at any cost" it is just mental. If you sent out by the wife to buy a car, dutifully go around all the showrooms, only find that they are all broken or costing £1m; what would you do ? You certainly wouldn't buy a duff one or go into debt for an overpriced one - you would go back to the wife and tell her the score so that she can give you new orders. Peoples' vote time. Apologies if I’m going back over old ground but there are few things less appealing to me than going through this thread page by page. Have you changed your view from 2016 or so you just think this deal is so ghastly that it has to go and the lack of parliamentary consensus renders a second referendum necessary in your opinion? I would much rather we stayed but have significant reservations about the prospect of this happening due to just what it will do to our country. I think if I was an MP I’d probably back Single Market + Customs union but it’s an awful position to be in, caused by two all-time worst PMs back to back and Corbyn’s utter lack of leadership at a time when it was most needed (which has cost Labour my support at present). Mind you, I think any outcome will end up irreparably damaging relations across the UK for a generation - how many leavers would be actually happy with “Norway plus”?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 22:19:04 GMT 1
Unless a "no deal Brexit" is ruled out by the government Labour and, by the sound of it the Lib Dems, are not prepared to even begin cross party talks aimed at getting us out of this impasse....we are getting nowhere fast.
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Post by salop27 on Jan 16, 2019 22:25:49 GMT 1
Over the last couple of years my position has gone from reluctant leave voter to very convinced leave voter. It's lovely to see all parties communicating tonight but let's remember the red lines. No freedom of movement, no single market or customs union, control of laws and no sending vast sums of money. I'll accept an extension of article 50 to renegotiate. Any mention of another referendum is a one way street to a civil war so no way to that. Finally, if there is to be no deal we leave still.
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Post by LetchworthShrew on Jan 16, 2019 22:28:43 GMT 1
and if we do extend leave date past 29th March as some pundits predict might happen there are Euro Elections on 23rd May!!!!
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Post by salop27 on Jan 16, 2019 22:37:47 GMT 1
and if we do extend leave date past 29th March as some pundits predict might happen there are Euro Elections on 23rd May!!!! While I'd accept an extension only the EU can grant one and supposedly only for something big like a general election or a referendum. Neither of those is likely within the time frame.
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Post by tvor on Jan 17, 2019 0:07:08 GMT 1
So May is now reaching out in search of a parliamentary consensus, only two and half years too bloody late!
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Post by martinshrew on Jan 17, 2019 0:31:32 GMT 1
Unless a "no deal Brexit" is ruled out by the government Labour and, by the sound of it the Lib Dems, are not prepared to even begin cross party talks aimed at getting us out of this impasse....we are getting nowhere fast. Great negotiating stance that would be, Jesus wept. We have to be confident in a no deal Brexit, go to Europe and say " do more, do better" or we leave on the 29th with no deal. A no deal would hurt them more.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 0:56:36 GMT 1
Unless a "no deal Brexit" is ruled out by the government Labour and, by the sound of it the Lib Dems, are not prepared to even begin cross party talks aimed at getting us out of this impasse....we are getting nowhere fast. Great negotiating stance that would be, Jesus wept. We have to be confident in a no deal Brexit, go to Europe and say " do more, do better" or we leave on the 29th with no deal. A no deal would hurt them more. What hurt would it cause them greater than ours? Is there a hurt index you can share with us?
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Post by stuttgartershrew on Jan 17, 2019 10:03:34 GMT 1
Unless a "no deal Brexit" is ruled out by the government Labour and, by the sound of it the Lib Dems, are not prepared to even begin cross party talks aimed at getting us out of this impasse....we are getting nowhere fast. Great negotiating stance that would be, Jesus wept. We have to be confident in a no deal Brexit, go to Europe and say " do more, do better" or we leave on the 29th with no deal. A no deal would hurt them more. A no deal would hurt them, yes. More? I'm really not sure about that but if I had to edge by bets then I would say that is incorrect. Although as yet, I do not think it can be yet proved otherwise. Do agree with you regarding "no deal Brexit" though, don't understand why people would be seeking that at all. Just goes to show how many clowns we've got running the country... Just to add, it would seem the vote of no confidence was a complete waste of time and I really can't see how an election would get us passed this Brexit impasse (as I gather the same people would be voted back in to simply continue as is). As long as Corbyn is in place the Tories are going to put stopping him getting into number 10 before anything else, they're clearly concerned about what he would do given the chance...
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Post by simianbenzoate on Jan 17, 2019 10:53:00 GMT 1
Over the last couple of years my position has gone from reluctant leave voter to very convinced leave voter. It's lovely to see all parties communicating tonight but let's remember the red lines. No freedom of movement, no single market or customs union, control of laws and no sending vast sums of money. I'll accept an extension of article 50 to renegotiate. Any mention of another referendum is a one way street to a civil war so no way to that. Finally, if there is to be no deal we leave still. Please stop threatening us all with your "uprisings", we will not make decisions on the future of this country for the sake of appeasement. any MPs bowing to this rhetoric (Grayling) should be ousted immediately
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Post by simianbenzoate on Jan 17, 2019 10:57:10 GMT 1
Unless a "no deal Brexit" is ruled out by the government Labour and, by the sound of it the Lib Dems, are not prepared to even begin cross party talks aimed at getting us out of this impasse....we are getting nowhere fast. Great negotiating stance that would be, Jesus wept. We have to be confident in a no deal Brexit, go to Europe and say " do more, do better" or we leave on the 29th with no deal. A no deal would hurt them more. Please elaborate. a no deal has zero provision for 80% of our economic strength. They might have to spend a bit more on whisky. There is no renegotiation to be had with the current red lines, it would be bleeding obvious even if the EU hadn't already made that very clear a number of times. There is no better deal to be had. This may come as a surprise to you, but Johnson's "we can have our cake and eat it" was..shockingly...just as much nonsense as everything else that's ever come out of his speak hole
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Post by martinshrew on Jan 17, 2019 11:10:39 GMT 1
Over the last couple of years my position has gone from reluctant leave voter to very convinced leave voter. It's lovely to see all parties communicating tonight but let's remember the red lines. No freedom of movement, no single market or customs union, control of laws and no sending vast sums of money. I'll accept an extension of article 50 to renegotiate. Any mention of another referendum is a one way street to a civil war so no way to that. Finally, if there is to be no deal we leave still. Please stop threatening us all with your "uprisings", we will not make decisions on the future of this country for the sake of appeasement. any MPs bowing to this rhetoric (Grayling) should be ousted immediately The poster is correct in what he states. I fully believe there will be civil war on our streets if there is no end to freedom of movement, leaving the single market, leaving the customs union and stopping our commitment to paying billions to the EU.
The EU has been a complete **** up.
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Post by salop27 on Jan 17, 2019 12:06:55 GMT 1
Just to clarify I used the words "civil war" in reference to what a 2nd referendum might be like. I believe it would be like nothing we've seen before and of course there is no guarantee the result would be implemented.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 12:35:35 GMT 1
The EU has not been a complete **** up. Leaving the EU has been a complete **** up!
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Post by venceremos on Jan 17, 2019 12:52:30 GMT 1
Over the last couple of years my position has gone from reluctant leave voter to very convinced leave voter. It's lovely to see all parties communicating tonight but let's remember the red lines. No freedom of movement, no single market or customs union, control of laws and no sending vast sums of money. I'll accept an extension of article 50 to renegotiate. Any mention of another referendum is a one way street to a civil war so no way to that. Finally, if there is to be no deal we leave still. You sound nothing like someone who was ever a "reluctant" leave voter. Anyway, since you're sticking to those red lines, what's the point of all parties communicating or article 50 being extended when your view is essentially that of a no dealer - ie there's nothing to negotiate! Prepare to be disappointed, that's not going to happen.
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Post by venceremos on Jan 17, 2019 12:54:13 GMT 1
Unless a "no deal Brexit" is ruled out by the government Labour and, by the sound of it the Lib Dems, are not prepared to even begin cross party talks aimed at getting us out of this impasse....we are getting nowhere fast. Great negotiating stance that would be, Jesus wept. We have to be confident in a no deal Brexit, go to Europe and say " do more, do better" or we leave on the 29th with no deal. A no deal would hurt them more. It wouldn't. Simple as that.
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