|
Post by martinshrew on Aug 7, 2019 18:01:44 GMT 1
You're missing the point, plenty have already said they still wouldn't accept the result if leave won again. Where's the point in leave winning by more to be in the same position with the hysterical far left again. The point would be that you would have removed their arguments such as "it's three years since the referendum", "we didn't know the details", "nobody voted for "no deal", etc. To be replaced with "it's been 3 months" and numerous other rubbish excuses yet again. We voted to leave, it's been three years, get it done!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2019 18:02:11 GMT 1
Yet you don't want the "remainers" to be able to vote and vote and vote until they might get what they want......... Not even one measly confirming vote? It's not "one confirming vote". Plenty including Lucas have come out and said if leave won again they still wouldn't accept it. What you're seeing is the far left up in arms because they cannot get their own way for once. Lucas didn't say that. She said she would accept the result, but would vote against any confirmation in Parliament. The interviewer then suggested that this was not accepting the result. Lucas pointed out that she was representing the view of 68% of her constitutes who voted to remain. Which, is what representative parliamentary democracy is about.
|
|
|
Post by tvor on Aug 7, 2019 19:23:42 GMT 1
What you're seeing is the far left up in arms because they cannot get their own way for once. Have you still not grasped that Brexit isn't a party political issue? You conveniently ignore the fact that there is a significant amount of opposition on the Tory side also.
|
|
|
Post by neilsalop on Aug 7, 2019 19:55:10 GMT 1
Yet you don't want the "remainers" to be able to vote and vote and vote until they might get what they want......... Not even one measly confirming vote? It's not "one confirming vote". Plenty including Lucas have come out and said if leave won again they still wouldn't accept it. What you're seeing is the far left up in arms because they cannot get their own way for once. I'm sure Caroline Lucas would chuckle at being called hard left. It's also funny that left wing firebrand Dennis Skinner is pro-Brexit.
Brexit is not as black and white (or red and blue if you prefer) as you seem to think. Many in the Labour party are pro-Brexit and many Tories are anti. Equally many of both shades are prepared to compromise, like myself. I think Brexit is a terrible idea personally, but if the ''will of the people'' is to be enacted at least let there be some sensible discussion about how to have the best Brexit possible, one that places trade, customs agreements, the Irish border issue, jobs, immigration and human rights on the actual agenda. None of these things are being covered by no-deal apart from immigration and that is what is causing anti-brexiters to tar all brexiters with the racist brush, when we all know that not all brexiters are racist at all.
When you have Eton toffs, bankers, insurance moguls, tax dodgers and billionaire media owners leading the conversation is it any wonder that many on the left see Brexit as a get richer scheme for the already rich and screw the rest of us?
All the way through this thread people have asked the question, what does a no-deal Brexit give you personally? All we have had in response is sound bites about sovreignty, VAT rates, borders and the like. Not one person has said what effects it will have on their day to day life. Will it mean their job will be more secure and pay better? Will it give them a better standard of living? Will their home be worth more? Will their bills drop? If someone can give me answers with evidence I will be more than happy to consider their opinions.
|
|
|
Post by salop27 on Aug 7, 2019 20:00:49 GMT 1
November 2009, you may remember I was a tad under the weather with an internal haemorrhage and thankfully (for some and not others maybe ) I am still here. Interestingly, under the last Labour government and not far off the time when the NHS hit its highest ever public satisfaction rating of 70% in 2010: www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47472472In the nine years since that time (5 under the Coalition and 4 under the Conservatives alone) that rating has plummeted to 53%. I think you were lucky you visited when you did. I was in there when my wife had pneumonia in 2017 and we were sleeping in the corridor for hours at RSH until they realised what was going on (it was summertime and fairly hot; it honestly reminded me of when I lived in Latin America or the lityle health centre on Koh Mak, Thailand I had to go to once). Things done changed, as the rappers say. The NHS was bound to get a good rating then as labour had chucked all the money they had at it and then more and more and more. So much more that when the financial crisis struck the countries finances were in no state to cope and the rest is history. Don't forget that Cameron won the 2015 general election with a working majority the current government would kill for. That was on a manifesto to keep spending tight.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2019 21:22:00 GMT 1
Interestingly, under the last Labour government and not far off the time when the NHS hit its highest ever public satisfaction rating of 70% in 2010: www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47472472In the nine years since that time (5 under the Coalition and 4 under the Conservatives alone) that rating has plummeted to 53%. I think you were lucky you visited when you did. I was in there when my wife had pneumonia in 2017 and we were sleeping in the corridor for hours at RSH until they realised what was going on (it was summertime and fairly hot; it honestly reminded me of when I lived in Latin America or the lityle health centre on Koh Mak, Thailand I had to go to once). Things done changed, as the rappers say. The NHS was bound to get a good rating then as labour had chucked all the money they had at it and then more and more and more. So much more that when the financial crisis struck the countries finances were in no state to cope and the rest is history. Don't forget that Cameron won the 2015 general election with a working majority the current government would kill for. That was on a manifesto to keep spending tight. Conservative Manifesto and no hint of keeping spending tight. Interesting to pick your way through it. It appears the only thing they actually achieved with great alacrity was the referendum and that ahead of time!!! the threshold for paying the 40p higher rate of income tax will be raised to £50,000 in 2020, taking hundreds of thousands of professionals out of the higher rate. The basic rate increases to £12,500. - the family home will be taken out of tax for all but the richest by increasing the effective Inheritance Tax threshold for married couples and civil partners to £1 million from 2017 - 1,000,000 new homes twill be built by 2020, including starter and affordable homes, new homes on brownfield land and homes built from the extensions of the Help to Buy schemes - 270,000 new children’s places will be created with the opening of 500 new free schools, while “coasting” schools will be forced to go under the leadership of new headmasters - Working age benefits to be frozen from April 2016, while the maximum amount that a single household can claim in benefits each year will be cut from £26,000 to £23,000 - Britons will get a vote in a referendum on Britain’s continued membership of the European Union by the end of 2017 - Britain’s economy will start to move into surplus in April 2018, with the Government taking in more than it spends for the first time in 18 years - The Government will have invested £38 billion in Britain’s railway network in the five years by 2019. - Health spending will increase by £8billion a year by 2020
|
|
|
Post by martinshrew on Aug 7, 2019 23:07:11 GMT 1
It's not "one confirming vote". Plenty including Lucas have come out and said if leave won again they still wouldn't accept it. What you're seeing is the far left up in arms because they cannot get their own way for once. I'm sure Caroline Lucas would chuckle at being called hard left. It's also funny that left wing firebrand Dennis Skinner is pro-Brexit.
Brexit is not as black and white (or red and blue if you prefer) as you seem to think. Many in the Labour party are pro-Brexit and many Tories are anti. Equally many of both shades are prepared to compromise, like myself. I think Brexit is a terrible idea personally, but if the ''will of the people'' is to be enacted at least let there be some sensible discussion about how to have the best Brexit possible, one that places trade, customs agreements, the Irish border issue, jobs, immigration and human rights on the actual agenda. None of these things are being covered by no-deal apart from immigration and that is what is causing anti-brexiters to tar all brexiters with the racist brush, when we all know that not all brexiters are racist at all.
When you have Eton toffs, bankers, insurance moguls, tax dodgers and billionaire media owners leading the conversation is it any wonder that many on the left see Brexit as a get richer scheme for the already rich and screw the rest of us?
All the way through this thread people have asked the question, what does a no-deal Brexit give you personally? All we have had in response is sound bites about sovreignty, VAT rates, borders and the like. Not one person has said what effects it will have on their day to day life. Will it mean their job will be more secure and pay better? Will it give them a better standard of living? Will their home be worth more? Will their bills drop? If someone can give me answers with evidence I will be more than happy to consider their opinions.
I have no problem at all discussing how it should be done, more than up for that. It's the people trying to overturn it that are a disgrace.
|
|
|
Post by neilsalop on Aug 8, 2019 7:24:57 GMT 1
I'm sure Caroline Lucas would chuckle at being called hard left. It's also funny that left wing firebrand Dennis Skinner is pro-Brexit.
Brexit is not as black and white (or red and blue if you prefer) as you seem to think. Many in the Labour party are pro-Brexit and many Tories are anti. Equally many of both shades are prepared to compromise, like myself. I think Brexit is a terrible idea personally, but if the ''will of the people'' is to be enacted at least let there be some sensible discussion about how to have the best Brexit possible, one that places trade, customs agreements, the Irish border issue, jobs, immigration and human rights on the actual agenda. None of these things are being covered by no-deal apart from immigration and that is what is causing anti-brexiters to tar all brexiters with the racist brush, when we all know that not all brexiters are racist at all.
When you have Eton toffs, bankers, insurance moguls, tax dodgers and billionaire media owners leading the conversation is it any wonder that many on the left see Brexit as a get richer scheme for the already rich and screw the rest of us?
All the way through this thread people have asked the question, what does a no-deal Brexit give you personally? All we have had in response is sound bites about sovreignty, VAT rates, borders and the like. Not one person has said what effects it will have on their day to day life. Will it mean their job will be more secure and pay better? Will it give them a better standard of living? Will their home be worth more? Will their bills drop? If someone can give me answers with evidence I will be more than happy to consider their opinions.
I have no problem at all discussing how it should be done, more than up for that. It's the people trying to overturn it that are a disgrace. So why not revoke Article 50, bring the discussion back into Parliament, set up a cross party committee to bring forward a deal that would keep 90% of the country if not happy, at least reasonably content, boost business confidence and put the pressure on the EU to accept a deal that would be good for all parties? As it stands the EU are well set up for no-deal, we on the other hand are throwing billions of pounds at the problem when we don't even know what all the problems are likely to be. Talk about p**sing in the wind.
Given another referendum I would still vote to remain, primarily because I fear what a Tory Brexit will bring. A cross-party consensus on Brexit would be a lot more palatable to a lot more people and would in my opinion negate the need for a second vote, but all the Tories seem to be interested in is appealing to those on the right of the 52%.
Surely trying to do the right thing by 80-90% of the population is better than driving a wedge between two halves of the country. There is a small section on either end that are never going to be happy, whatever happens, but they will be drowned out by a real majority of people prepared to give it a go. Whether we leave without a deal or we re-run the vote or we just change our minds and stay in there is going to be half of the people in this country disappointed. Compromise is the only real alternative to the growing mistrust, alienation and in some cases downright hatred that is permeating the entire fabric of the country.
|
|
|
Post by Minormorris64 on Aug 8, 2019 8:26:32 GMT 1
I ALWAYS vote, have done so in EVERY national and local election and 2 referendums since 1982.
The point I was trying to get across was pretty simple, but if you don't want to take it on board then hey-ho.
The point was nonsense, you can vote and vote and vote and eventually you got what you wanted. Simple. Which is precisely what the non leavers want , vote, vote vote until they get the RIGHT result for them.
|
|
|
Post by frankwellshrews on Aug 8, 2019 8:30:24 GMT 1
Interestingly, under the last Labour government and not far off the time when the NHS hit its highest ever public satisfaction rating of 70% in 2010: www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47472472In the nine years since that time (5 under the Coalition and 4 under the Conservatives alone) that rating has plummeted to 53%. I think you were lucky you visited when you did. I was in there when my wife had pneumonia in 2017 and we were sleeping in the corridor for hours at RSH until they realised what was going on (it was summertime and fairly hot; it honestly reminded me of when I lived in Latin America or the lityle health centre on Koh Mak, Thailand I had to go to once). Things done changed, as the rappers say. The NHS was bound to get a good rating then as labour had chucked all the money they had at it and then more and more and more. So much more that when the financial crisis struck the countries finances were in no state to cope and the rest is history. Don't forget that Cameron won the 2015 general election with a working majority the current government would kill for. That was on a manifesto to keep spending tight. That's a very obtuse way of saying that a properly funded NHS achieved really good approval ratings vs the current scenario which doesn't. I see you've repeated the stock tory argument about Labour "overspending". The high deficit was caused by a collapse in tax receipts following the US caused global financial crisis which led to a UK recession. Nothing to do with Labour spending plans. Here's a measure of the country's debt which is actually relevant; tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/government-debt-to-gdpAs you can see, despite their tough talk on austerity, the conservatives have achieved very little in terms of reducing debt as a % of GDP.
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Aug 8, 2019 10:58:17 GMT 1
Was more than tough talk on austerity too. People's finances and the countries services and infrastructure have been brought to their knees.
|
|
|
Post by salop27 on Aug 8, 2019 12:26:58 GMT 1
Labour had lost control on their spending some time before the financial crash. I believe Osbourne used the phrase they failed to fix the roof while the sun was shining.
|
|
|
Post by frankwellshrews on Aug 8, 2019 12:30:18 GMT 1
Labour had lost control on their spending some time before the financial crash. I believe Osbourne used the phrase they failed to fix the roof while the sun was shining. I believe that phrase is an empty, meaningless cliche designed to ensnare people who like to apply oversimplified household budget analogies to complex macroeconomic questions.
|
|
|
Post by shrewsace on Aug 8, 2019 12:37:28 GMT 1
Labour had lost control on their spending some time before the financial crash. I believe Osbourne used the phrase they failed to fix the roof while the sun was shining. The Tories were committed to Labour's spending plans until the s**t hit the fan in the form of the banking crisis, so Osborne's beloved soundbite was more than a bit rich.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 13:50:51 GMT 1
Labour had lost control on their spending some time before the financial crash. I believe Osbourne used the phrase they failed to fix the roof while the sun was shining. Which part of the roof didn’t they fix? Serious question.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 19:59:26 GMT 1
The point was nonsense, you can vote and vote and vote and eventually you got what you wanted. Simple. Which is precisely what the non leavers want , vote, vote vote until they get the RIGHT result for them. Aye, but you said that you didn't moan when Blair was in power, you just got on with it. Safe in the knowledge that you could vote again, until you got the government you wanted. There's a glaring, fundamental difference between your heroic stoutism and leaving the EU without a vote on the deal offered.
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Aug 8, 2019 22:10:45 GMT 1
The bookies are looking into "no deal" Brexit now. 4/1 there will be fuel shortages and 12/1 food shortages. Get in there before the odds shorten?
The sad thing is it will be too late by the time the leavers have to come face to face with reality.
|
|
|
Post by stuttgartershrew on Aug 9, 2019 9:46:55 GMT 1
The bookies are looking into "no deal" Brexit now. 4/1 there will be fuel shortages and 12/1 food shortages. Get in there before the odds shorten? The sad thing is it will be too late by the time the leavers have to come face to face with reality. They don't miss a trick do they the bookies. Mind you, you know what they say...a fool and his money.
|
|
|
Post by salop27 on Aug 9, 2019 10:07:35 GMT 1
So economic growth declines in UK for the first time since 2012. The doom mongers will say this is a taste of things to come while the more positive minded will point to the uncertainty created for businesses and people with money to spend by delaying leaving in March. Leaving on the 31st of October is a must.
|
|
|
Post by camdenshrew on Aug 9, 2019 10:23:54 GMT 1
But without knowing the exact terms of exit, the uncertainty will continue. Do you honestly think No Deal will bring certainty?
For example, how is trading under WTO terms going to help anybody?
Product tariffs UK-EU exports:
WTO:
Dairy: 39% Meat: 38% Sugars: 31.6% Cereals: 23.9% Fruit and Veg: 10.5% Vehicles: 10% Fish: 9.6%
In the EU? All the above are 0%.
And even if we do come out with a No Deal, do you really think that will be the end of the matter? It will take years and years to negotiate trade deals which come anywhere near to what we already have.
The only certainty that can come is through a negotiated deal or - my preference - campaigning to stop the madness once and for all through a People's Vote.
|
|
|
Post by The Shropshire Tenor on Aug 9, 2019 10:55:18 GMT 1
The answer to the question of who benefits from no deal is, as so often in these things, ‘follow the money’.
The winners will be the hedge funds and those who short shares in the expectation of our currency and shares tanking.
According to Reuters, hedge funds against the pound rose to more than $6 billion in the days before Johnson’s win, giving them 100 million profit.
These people are contributors to the campaign funds of Johnstone and others in the Cabinet and are placing confident bets on the economy going down the tubes following no deal.
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Aug 9, 2019 11:10:48 GMT 1
So economic growth declines in UK for the first time since 2012. The doom mongers will say this is a taste of things to come while the more positive minded will point to the uncertainty created for businesses and people with money to spend by delaying leaving in March. Leaving on the 31st of October is a must. Surely the uncertainty for businesses and people with money to spend (or invest), was created by an unexpected vote to leave? Businesses would generally have preferred to have just gone on as they were within the EU. Instead they have to deal with an unknown, even at this stage, Brexit arrangement. We also need to end the uncertainty of having a Conservative dictatorship and allow our elected representatives in parliament to decide our future, that's worked pretty well for the last few hundred years.
|
|
|
Post by frankwellshrews on Aug 9, 2019 11:47:33 GMT 1
Need to look beyond the headlines a bit with this GDP growth issue. The ONS seem to be suggesting the biggest issues were the rearranging of the car production timetable (shut downs shifted from summer to April to try to mitigate any risks from no deal brexit) and companies running down stockpiles they built up in q1 as a hedge against no deal meaning less money was invested in q2, along with a generic "brexit uncertainty" tagline.
(Disclaimer: complete layperson here, hopefully some of the economics types on here can chip in) My guess would be we might see stronger growth in q3 as the car plants will be working again and people are stockpiling again (Dominoes hit the headlines this week, splashing out £7m on ingredients) which should stave off the (official recession) until early 2020.
People on the brexit side seem to be getting a little over excited on the "fundamentals" though. Aside from the obvious points about massaging the figures, a lot of companies seem to be opting to continue to take people on as it's comparatively painless to get rid of a load of newbies with less than 2 years under their belts compared to reversing decisions on big investments in tech/infrastructure/acquisitions etc. "Record high employment" is a massive red herring, as is "real wage growth" in my opinion (the latter largely being a function of public sector pay restraints finally being relaxed a little for staff who are still years behind where they should be). We also won't see the real effects of no deal on pay until the next round of payrises in 2020.
Retail is looking extremely shaky, house prices are falling, the pound is falling, the FTSE is down on today's news. The markets don't seem to like BoJo or no deal and there's precious little consumer confidence around. Chuck in an "unexpected" fall in GDP. There's an air of panic around the place now that feels comparable to 2008.
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Aug 9, 2019 12:11:47 GMT 1
So, get some workers in, they are reasonably cheap and easy to get rid of, don't invest too much as you might close here and move to be in the EU zone. Investment reduced.
Lower investment, just get workers in. Productivity will go down.
You already stocked up for the March leaving date so can cut back on orders Output reduced, though set to increase again short term as we stock up for a date Boris has in his head as the only alternative.
Lower imports. Sounds good, but that means less raw materials are coming in because we are not making as much stuff.
Not really going very well this Brexit business is it?
|
|
Drew
Midland League Division One
Posts: 416
|
Post by Drew on Aug 9, 2019 13:36:51 GMT 1
But the EU is the land of milk and honey. There can't be a recession whilst we remain a member.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 13:54:33 GMT 1
But the EU is the land of milk and honey. There can't be a recession whilst we remain a member. At least the EU is a known unlike the land of Elysian fields and unicorns of Brexit.
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Aug 9, 2019 14:09:44 GMT 1
But the EU is the land of milk and honey. There can't be a recession whilst we remain a member. We are still a member, but one rapidly heading for the exit trap door. If we were committed to staying in the EU the pound would be higher, the stock market would be higher, investment in industry would be higher. Is that enough for you? We could have been a very strong player in the EU as France continues to have it's troubles and Germany suffers from Trump trade problems with selling it's manufacturing output. Instead we have a government committed to going it alone, against the wishes of parliament and against the wishes of around half the electorate. Makes no sense whatsoever.
|
|
|
Post by salop27 on Aug 9, 2019 16:12:49 GMT 1
But the EU is the land of milk and honey. There can't be a recession whilst we remain a member. We are still a member, but one rapidly heading for the exit trap door. If we were committed to staying in the EU the pound would be higher, the stock market would be higher, investment in industry would be higher. Is that enough for you? We could have been a very strong player in the EU as France continues to have it's troubles and Germany suffers from Trump trade problems with selling it's manufacturing output. Instead we have a government committed to going it alone, against the wishes of parliament and against the wishes of around half the electorate. Makes no sense whatsoever. What goes up comes down and vice versa. Instead of being a strong player in the EU we can be a strong player in the world and the EU.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 16:55:09 GMT 1
We are still a member, but one rapidly heading for the exit trap door. If we were committed to staying in the EU the pound would be higher, the stock market would be higher, investment in industry would be higher. Is that enough for you? We could have been a very strong player in the EU as France continues to have it's troubles and Germany suffers from Trump trade problems with selling it's manufacturing output. Instead we have a government committed to going it alone, against the wishes of parliament and against the wishes of around half the electorate. Makes no sense whatsoever. What goes up comes down and vice versa. Instead of being a strong player in the EU we can be a strong player in the world and the EU. Pure fantasy. I would have thought the reality would have begun to sink in particularly in light of Raab's recent abortive attempt to be best friend's trade wise with Canada who have just signed a deal with the EU after 7 years negotiation. Hey ho, though, Basil Fox will have all these deals lined up at the drop of a hat (dream on)
|
|
|
Post by staffordshrew on Aug 9, 2019 17:02:27 GMT 1
Why take the risk of leaving the EU and starting again in attempting to build our standing in the world when half the people don't want to leave and parliament doesn't want to leave?
People say we had a vote and have to continue, but we also voted Tony Blair in three times yet we didn't make him Prime Minister forever. In a democracy people are free to implement a change of mind, move on.
|
|